Tajikam Worldwide Community

General => General Discussion => Topic started by: Rostam on November 14, 2007, 12:26:13 PM



Title: Our language and country?
Post by: Rostam on November 14, 2007, 12:26:13 PM
What do you say when people ask about your mother tongue?
I say always Persian/Parsi :) I really become angry...when people say Dari...or Dari-zuban
which is a creation of the afghan governments to divide us...from other persians!

And what if people ask....where you are from?
I always say Tajikistan or Iran......

I think its very very wrong if we say...we are from Awgholistan or Uzbekistan because...then we will promote those immoral countries!
For example...Kurds also never say they are Turk or Arabic...or from Turkey or Iran!

What do you think?


Title: Our language and country?
Post by: Parsistani on November 14, 2007, 01:00:13 PM
Salam,
your right Rostam Jan. Dari is the name of the literature and not of the language self. Dari is just the skelett of persian language. The Pashtuns also don


Title: Our language and country?
Post by: Rostam on November 14, 2007, 01:04:27 PM
Quote
Some of you guys should post some very nice and educationall videos on y


Title: Our language and country?
Post by: Gul agha on November 14, 2007, 02:47:01 PM
Dari is another name for our language. Dari is not a Dialect but a language. Our language(Persian) has many names, for example Ferdousi calls this language Parsi,Parsi e Dari, and Dari while Mawlana uses Parsi and Pahlavi for this language. But for now we should officially use Parsi/Persian rather than the other names which were mostly used in Literature.


Title: Our language and country?
Post by: Dushanbe on November 14, 2007, 10:39:07 PM
As for me...

When I am asked about my language, First of all I say that it is Tajik that I add that it is Persian and start explaning the issue. Abroad, not many peopel knows Tajikistan and Tajik, for this reason it is fundamentally importanant to me to speak more about my country (a kind of presentation).

As a citizen of Tajikistan, I prefer to say first of all Tajik. But Dari and Persian have the same meaning to me.

As for Afghanistan, I do not see a problem in calling it Dari, since this language also was refered as Dari for many centuries. In other words, I am ok about how this language is called in Afghanistan, Iran and Tajikistan now. But when you are asked, do not be lazy, mention all the three and say in which country how it is called, and etc.


Title: Our language and country?
Post by: Gul agha on November 14, 2007, 11:09:11 PM
Quote from: Dushanbe;2849
As for me...

When I am asked about my language, First of all I say that it is Tajik that I add that it is Persian and start explaning the issue. Abroad, not many peopel knows Tajikistan and Tajik, for this reason it is fundamentally importanant to me to speak more about my country (a kind of presentation).

As a citizen of Tajikistan, I prefer to say first of all Tajik. But Dari and Persian have the same meaning to me.

As for Afghanistan, I do not see a problem in calling it Dari, since this language also was refered as Dari for many centuries. In other words, I am ok about how this language is called in Afghanistan, Iran and Tajikistan now. But when you are asked, do not be lazy, mention all the three and say in which country how it is called, and etc.



Yes but Tajiki is a dialect just like Kabuli,Balkhi,Mashadi..etc. Our langauge(Tajikistan Afghanistan Iran Uzbekistan) is Parsi A.K.A Persian.

Parsi e Tajiki is a better term to use than Tajiki.


Title: Our language and country?
Post by: Unity on November 15, 2007, 01:25:33 AM
I didnt like when ppl said Dari, but no i am ok.  if you get angry and unhappy they will consider it as our week point and make it a bigger issue.  dari, tajiki and parsi/farsi are the same language with different names.  i always use both dari and farsi, even in my writing i consider this.


Title: Our language and country?
Post by: Dushanbe on November 15, 2007, 04:28:46 AM
No misleadings...

Tajik language has many small dialects in Tajikistan. But Tajik is officially recognized language. It has its grammer and phonetics and all required rules of writing and wriding. As you know we write in sylliric. Try to understand, a text in Tajik language written in Arabic - we call persian. If I write something using Arabic letters - I will say: I am writing in Persian. But when I write in Sylliric - I am writing in Tajiki. (because it has its rules of spelling, pronunciation and punctuation - if you insted of e write i or a - that will be a mistake - not acceptable)

For example:
 (you) Shooma - wrong,  shumo - correct
  (What is your goal?)-Hadafe shooma chist? - wrong, Hadafi shumo chist? - correct.

If you make mistakes, you will be considered - not so well educated or do not knowing Tajik language properly.

You may call Tajik language - a version (another version) of Persian language or Tajiki Persian (Forsii Tojiki)but not a dialect of Persian.

Additionally, if I speak the way Iranian people speak, people in Tajikistan will say that I speak in Persian. If an Iranian will come to Tajikistan and speaks the way Iranians speak and says that s/he is speaking in Tajiki, that will be wrong because Tajiki has its rules of pronunciation. When speaking in Tajiki, for the word "if" you will have to say "agar" and not "age"


Title: Our language and country?
Post by: Parsistani on November 15, 2007, 04:36:50 AM
in our dialect we say hadafe shoma chist. So it is wrong??


Title: Our language and country?
Post by: Unity on November 15, 2007, 04:40:37 AM
I dont think tajiki is a dialect of farsi/dari, it is farsi itself with a different name.  and there shoudnt be a problem if we use cyrrilic or arabic alphabet.  the only problem with cyrrilic alphabet is that other tajiks dont know what the tajkis of tajikistan write, and i consider it as a barrier between us.

we also should differentiate between accent and dialect.  for example: in afghanistan we have got different accents, but you cant say they are different dialects, the same thing can be said in iran and tajikistan.

Rika Khana


Title: Our language and country?
Post by: Dushanbe on November 15, 2007, 05:05:45 AM
Dear Parsistani

It is not wrong. It is Persian or Dari. You may call it Tajiki if you say "Hadafi shumo chist?" This is the rule of the language.

Very strict rules. Spelling matters in Tajiki. When writing in Arabic, you will often miss many sounds (o, i, u, a, etc.) and you will have to guess if to read (why?) "chero?" or "charo?". We say "Charo?" and write charo - "chero" is not in Tajik dictionaries.


Title: Our language and country?
Post by: Unity on November 15, 2007, 06:34:17 AM
Quote from: Dushanbe;2863
Dear Parsistani

It is not wrong. It is Persian or Dari. You may call it Tajiki if you say "Hadafi shumo chist?" This is the rule of the language.

Very strict rules. Spelling matters in Tajiki. When writing in Arabic, you will often miss many sounds (o, i, u, a, etc.) and you will have to guess if to read (why?) "chero?" or "charo?". We say "Charo?" and write charo - "chero" is not in Tajik dictionaries.


Dear Brother Dushanbe, there might be slight differences in writing but you cant say tajiki/dari/farsi are different languages, in different places we have different accents and pronounciations, the language is still the same.  the problem is in cyrillic and farsi alphabets, not our language.

Rika Khana


Title: Our language and country?
Post by: Rostam on November 15, 2007, 07:44:07 AM
We (Tajiks/Persians) all should name our language the same!
AGREE?!

I actually dont care how you name it....but we have to make clear...we our one nation...and have the same mother tongue...goddamn! Dont let me become angry!


Title: Our language and country?
Post by: Gul agha on November 15, 2007, 09:50:43 AM
Quote from: Dushanbe;2858
No misleadings...

Tajik language has many small dialects in Tajikistan. But Tajik is officially recognized language. It has its grammer and phonetics and all required rules of writing and wriding. As you know we write in sylliric. Try to understand, a text in Tajik language written in Arabic - we call persian. If I write something using Arabic letters - I will say: I am writing in Persian. But when I write in Sylliric - I am writing in Tajiki. (because it has its rules of spelling, pronunciation and punctuation - if you insted of e write i or a - that will be a mistake - not acceptable)

For example:
 (you) Shooma - wrong,  shumo - correct
  (What is your goal?)-Hadafe shooma chist? - wrong, Hadafi shumo chist? - correct.

If you make mistakes, you will be considered - not so well educated or do not knowing Tajik language properly.

You may call Tajik language - a version (another version) of Persian language or Tajiki Persian (Forsii Tojiki)but not a dialect of Persian.

Additionally, if I speak the way Iranian people speak, people in Tajikistan will say that I speak in Persian. If an Iranian will come to Tajikistan and speaks the way Iranians speak and says that s/he is speaking in Tajiki, that will be wrong because Tajiki has its rules of pronunciation. When speaking in Tajiki, for the word "if" you will have to say "agar" and not "age"


But having a different alphabet wont make it a separate language. There are Arab counries today who use the latin script but they still call their language "Arabic. Arabs in Sudan cant understand the Arabic spoken in egypt, When egyptian films are brought to sudan they have to add subtitles to it. We dont have this problem in our countries, we understand eachother.


Title: Our language and country?
Post by: Afrasiab on November 15, 2007, 10:02:53 AM
Albatta, zaboni mo farsi ast, farsii tajiki. Vale az didi geopolitiki mo bayad zabani khudra hamnami qavmo millati khud muarrifi konem.

Mo yak millatem, yak zaban dorem. Mo Tajik astem va zabani mo tajiki ast.


Title: Our language and country?
Post by: Parsistani on November 15, 2007, 10:43:00 AM
First, i want to ask you where the smilies are.

I think it is correct to use Dari but in the right context. If you don


Title: Our language and country?
Post by: Gul agha on November 15, 2007, 11:41:59 AM
Quote from: Afrasiab;2876
Albatta, zaboni mo farsi ast, farsii tajiki. Vale az didi geopolitiki mo bayad zabani khudra hamnami qavmo millati khud muarrifi konem.

Mo yak millatem, yak zaban dorem. Mo Tajik astem va zabani mo tajiki ast.


bale durust megoyed walleh bayaad hamray Tajiki Parsi ham begoyed(Tajiki Parsi ya Parsi e Tajiki). Tajiki e tanha agar begoyed mardum fekr mekunad ke tajiki judaa az Parsi hast wa een farhang o zaban e maara kuchaktar mesazad.


Title: Our language and country?
Post by: Rostam on November 15, 2007, 12:35:05 PM
Quote from: Gul agha;2887
bale durust megoyed walleh bayaad hamray Tajiki Parsi ham begoyed(Tajiki Parsi ya Parsi e Tajiki). Tajiki e tanha agar begoyed mardum fekr mekunad ke tajiki judaa az Parsi hast wa een farhang o zaban e maara kuchaktar mesazad.


Exactly!!!


Title: Our language and country?
Post by: Nastoh on November 15, 2007, 08:05:36 PM
Tajiks were using arabic alphabet before Soviet invasion to Central Asia. Tajiks' language has always been Farsi (Persian). But for political reasons, USSR changed the Tajiks' alphabet into Cyrillic around 1920 or later... Unfortunately for these reasons the new generation of Tajiks living in Afghanistan and Tajikistan (you and I for example) do not understand each other's writings because one writes in Russian or Cyrillic and the other uses the old arabic alphabet.
 
Giving Farsi other names such as Dari and Tajiki is not wrong but it will create confusion because in fact we all speak same language with different accents.
 
There are some proves in Persian poetry books that the language has been called Dari too, but there is no proof for Persian being called Tajiki. This concept was created by Soviet Union and the communist government of Tajikistan between 1920 - 1950 or may be later. I am not sure about the dates.
 
Today we need unity more than anything else. For this reason, we have to give up using different names for same language.
 
Quote from: Dushanbe;2858
No misleadings...
 
Tajik language has many small dialects in Tajikistan. But Tajik is officially recognized language. It has its grammer and phonetics and all required rules of writing and wriding. As you know we write in sylliric. Try to understand, a text in Tajik language written in Arabic - we call persian. If I write something using Arabic letters - I will say: I am writing in Persian. But when I write in Sylliric - I am writing in Tajiki. (because it has its rules of spelling, pronunciation and punctuation - if you insted of e write i or a - that will be a mistake - not acceptable)
 
For example:
(you) Shooma - wrong, shumo - correct
(What is your goal?)-Hadafe shooma chist? - wrong, Hadafi shumo chist? - correct.
 
If you make mistakes, you will be considered - not so well educated or do not knowing Tajik language properly.
 
You may call Tajik language - a version (another version) of Persian language or Tajiki Persian (Forsii Tojiki)but not a dialect of Persian.
 
Additionally, if I speak the way Iranian people speak, people in Tajikistan will say that I speak in Persian. If an Iranian will come to Tajikistan and speaks the way Iranians speak and says that s/he is speaking in Tajiki, that will be wrong because Tajiki has its rules of pronunciation. When speaking in Tajiki, for the word "if" you will have to say "agar" and not "age"


Title: Our language and country?
Post by: Dushanbe on November 15, 2007, 10:27:21 PM
Of course it is one language and I agree that it may create confusion among simple people, who are not so close to literature and those foreigners. But we are not in the position to change the terms.

As of the topic of our discussion, I think that it is a good topic because we are learning each other and trying to know who  pronounces how particular words in different areas. We need to keep on discovering each other.


Title: Our language and country?
Post by: Gul agha on November 15, 2007, 11:16:20 PM
Quote from: Dushanbe;2913
Of course it is one language and I agree that it may create confusion among simple people, who are not so close to literature and those foreigners. But we are not in the position to change the terms.

As of the topic of our discussion, I think that it is a good topic because we are learning each other and trying to know who  pronounces how particular words in different areas. We need to keep on discovering each other.

Tajiki is a new term for the Persian language and I would want Tajikistan to use it but plain tajiki like nastoh said will create confusion between our people. for example, Tajiks in Afghanistan will think Parsi and Dari are two different languages or Tajiks in Tajikistan will think Tajiki and Parsi arent the same. The only solution is to use a common name for this language(for example Australia,America,Canada,Britain..etc use the word "english not 4 different terms for the same language like us).

Parsi will be the official name of our language with local names following it ex. Parsi e Kabuli, Parsi Khorasani, Parsi Tajiki.


Title: Our language and country?
Post by: Nader Shah on November 15, 2007, 11:36:20 PM
right on, gul agha !


Title: Our language and country?
Post by: Dushanbe on November 17, 2007, 01:02:34 AM
Many people in Tajikistan know that in early 20th century the language was called Dari and Farsi. For understanding all these, you need to know how and why Tajikistan was created.
Very shortly:
Comunists cam to power in Russia in 1918. At that time Central Asia was a colony of Russia. After coming to power, they decided to create states in this territory according to ethnicity. Russia sent some professors, doctors (orientalists) in order to find out who is who. After creating Uzbekistan, they had to agree that the population in some parts of the region are not Turkic and mongoloig. These people were called Tajiks (by scholars and local educated people). So they decided to create a country named Tajikistan. The language that majority of these people spoke was called Dari and Farsi. After creating Tajikistan, an alphabet out of syrrilic was created for this (persian) language. They decided to call this Alphabet "Alifboi Tojiki" - Tajik Alphabit. And the language also started to be called Tajiki. So, Tajik is rather an ethnicity than a language and Farsi is one of the main and widely used language of Tajiks.
If we return to Arabic Alphabit, we will call the language Farsi only. But not it is impossible. the language is Forsii Tojiki or just Tojiki.
Just keep in mind - first Tajikistan was created then Tajik language (it has the same meaning as Farsi but different Alphabet).


Title: Our language and country?
Post by: Super on November 17, 2007, 06:02:12 AM
I usually use Farsi/Persian.


Title: Our language and country?
Post by: liftfan on November 17, 2007, 09:18:13 AM
Dear brothers,

Asslam Aleikoum wa rahmatu Allah wa barakatuh

I am an Arab, born in Syria and working in Saudi Arabia.

For us, Arabs, Faresi is the name of the language historically spoken mainly from the area surrounding Bukara and Samarqand to Persia ("Persai" is known in Arabic as "Fares"). Fares, is a province located in the south of Iran, with Shiraz as its capital.

People of high rank and intellectuals of the first Islamic era used to learn both Arabic and Faresi. Later on, Turkish was added at the time of the Ottomans. Ottoman Sultans were known for their knpwledge of Trukish, Arabic and Faresi.

After reading a lot about Tajiks and other Faresi-speakers, I think that they speak almost the same, but not identical language.

Persians and Tajiks can be said to be speaking Faresi and are of indo-European origin. However, the Tajiks is widely known for being Sunni Muslims, as opposed to Persians who are widely know for being Shi'a. This is the major difference. Otherwise, why Tajiks on the Iranian borders (who are Sunnis) identify themselves as Tajiks rather than Persians.

The Hazars, a non Indo-European people (Mongolian origion), live in a central mountainous area in Afganistan. Thus they have been isolated, and the Faresi - once they adopted instead of their original languages


Title: Our language and country?
Post by: Parsistani on November 17, 2007, 11:06:48 AM
I think we should call the written form of Parsi in Tajikistan as tajiki since they use cyrillic and the verbal language as Parsi e Dari/Darbari.


Title: Our language and country?
Post by: Parsistani on November 17, 2007, 11:28:46 AM
For 150 years ago modern Afghanistan was much bigger. The both eastern provinces Chorasan and Sistan (the mekran area) were part of Khorasan, what is today Afghanistan. Tajik means Persian. It is a term to define Persians from Turks, Arabs and Aughans. The Aughans use a very dirty plan. They call every Shia Tajik as Persian while Sunni Tajiks are Tajiks but since when do we define nations by confession?? The language we Persian nation speak are the same and have the same origine like the nations self. Tajiks are mainly Persian descends. In Derashkhshan it is even said Tajiks are the real descends of Persians while the people of Pars migrated later from south and nord of Persia and settled to Pars before Arabs arrived in Ceiphosten and Pars. The Paraci tribe in modern Afghanistan are one of those Pars tribes that fleed from nomadic and martialic Arabs. So we all speak the same language still today, the palavi langauge. Just the diff. between classical persian and modern  persian is we have also some arab words from the high arabic language.Today we have just for or 5 dialects. The Khorasani dialect, the real dialect of Sassanians that is spoken in central Asia and eastern Iran, the ''Pars'' dialect, the Soghdi dialect, a very conservative one and the Aserbaidshani dialect of the Persian tats, medi-evil persian. All these dialects have also sub-dialects and all of them have their diff. accents but however some dialects in Afghanistan are close to Iranian sub-dialect. For example the Kabuli dialect is very close to Tehrani dialect while Herati, Sistani dialect are closer to Shirazi dialect and so on and so on. The verbal langauges can be all considered as dialects while the written form do not know any kind of dialect, like arabian countries also do not know dialects in their written forms.


Title: Our language and country?
Post by: Aryamanesh on November 17, 2007, 03:12:44 PM
I agree that our language is known by different names i.e. Parsi, Dari, and more recently Tajiki. But historically it's known to the Western World as Persian. So when asked by a westerner, we should identify ourselves as speakers of the Persian language not Frasi, Dari, or Tajiki. Otherwise, we'd be dissociating ourselves from our shared heritage. It always bothers me to see that some Iranians in the West call themselves "Farsi" Speakers and also to see that in some forms "Dari" is included alongside languages such as Persian, English, French etc.
But what we call our language in our mother tounge is another story. Even in Iran we sometimes call it Farsi and sometimes Parsi, only to sound more eloquent.
Also as for people who have trouble calling their language Persian because they think they might be considered Iranian, Persia in classical and medieval texts describes the lands that comprise today's Iran, Afghanistan, and Tajikistan, among other areas. Out of this Persia, modern states of Iran, Afghanistan, and Tajikistan have risen. To give you a sense of the word, I think the Persian word for Persia would be "Iranzamin" which of course does not designate only  modern state of Iran.


Title: Our language and country?
Post by: Nader Shah on November 19, 2007, 01:53:47 AM
Quote from: Parsistani;2958
I think we should call the written form of Parsi in Tajikistan as tajiki since they use cyrillic and the verbal language as Parsi e Dari/Darbari.


Quote from: Parsistani;2960
For 150 years ago modern Afghanistan was much bigger. The both eastern provinces Chorasan and Sistan (the mekran area) were part of Khorasan, what is today Afghanistan. Tajik means Persian. It is a term to define Persians from Turks, Arabs and Aughans. The Aughans use a very dirty plan. They call every Shia Tajik as Persian while Sunni Tajiks are Tajiks but since when do we define nations by confession?? The language we Persian nation speak are the same and have the same origine like the nations self. Tajiks are mainly Persian descends. In Derashkhshan it is even said Tajiks are the real descends of Persians while the people of Pars migrated later from south and nord of Persia and settled to Pars before Arabs arrived in Ceiphosten and Pars. The Paraci tribe in modern Afghanistan are one of those Pars tribes that fleed from nomadic and martialic Arabs. So we all speak the same language still today, the palavi langauge. Just the diff. between classical persian and modern  persian is we have also some arab words from the high arabic language.Today we have just for or 5 dialects. The Khorasani dialect, the real dialect of Sassanians that is spoken in central Asia and eastern Iran, the ''Pars'' dialect, the Soghdi dialect, a very conservative one and the Aserbaidshani dialect of the Persian tats, medi-evil persian. All these dialects have also sub-dialects and all of them have their diff. accents but however some dialects in Afghanistan are close to Iranian sub-dialect. For example the Kabuli dialect is very close to Tehrani dialect while Herati, Sistani dialect are closer to Shirazi dialect and so on and so on. The verbal langauges can be all considered as dialects while the written form do not know any kind of dialect, like arabian countries also do not know dialects in their written forms.


In all your posts, you sound really confused as to where you stand. I see little coherence in your thoughts and vocabulary. Would you care to try define yourself and your views in summary to all of us. Are you on drugs or alcohol, or is your English poor ? Write in Persian if you have trouble with English.


Title: Our language and country?
Post by: Rostam on November 19, 2007, 03:58:06 AM
Quote from: doodooli;2982
In all your posts, you sound really confused as to where you stand. I see little coherence in your thoughts and vocabulary. Would you care to try define yourself and your views in summary to all of us. Are you on drugs or alcohol, or is your English poor ? Write in Persian if you have trouble with English.


You dont have right to be rude to parsistani jaan like this!
Parsistani is one of the best posters and most active! and yes he can speak various languages!