[Arash]

[QUOTE=Afrasiab;10672] I also feel myself Tajik and Iranian-Aryan, but not Persian..[/QUOTE]

[Arash]

dushanbe,

are you saying that persians are found immediately to the west of the iran-afghan border and on the afghan side of the border they suddenly change to being tajiks?..... it is not a reasonable point of view

[Dushanbe]

Dear Gul Agha,

I do not detest Persian, please do not misunderstand me. Since both of the terms, as you say, are foreign terms, I do not see a reason to change one into the other because they are already in use. Additionally, I do not consider westerners to be better or worse than chino-Turkic. Taking into consideration my humanistic approach to life, I am neutral to both of them and do not support any kinds of discrimination. Both Persian and Tajik are dear to me and do not consider one of them to be better than the other.



[QUOTE=Gul agha;10852]You detest a western concept (Persian) but adore a chino-turkic concept (Tajik)?

Can you please explain to me why you think and feel like this[/QUOTE]

[Dushanbe]

Dear Arash,

I am not saying so. It was a long time ago. At that time there was no Afghanistan and Tajikistan. It was one Big Iran in which Iranian peoples lived. Many of those who lived in other part of Iran (which is your country now) called themselves Persians, and in other Part of Iran (Today we call them Afghanistan, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, and Uznekistan) they called themselves differently. When Arabs conqured Iran, many Iranians who called themselves Persians went to other part of Iran (which is Cenral Asia now). They mixed with the Iranians of Cenral Asia.

You really need to start reading the history of Iranian Peoples and everything becomes clear to you.

After more that 1000 years, I want to say "now", many peoples who are of Iranian peoples in Central Asia call themselves "Tajiks", but some people in this forum say that they should start calling themselves Persian because they speak Persian.

I am an Iranic person from Tajikistan and say to them that we shoud not stop calling ourselves Tajiks.


[QUOTE=Arash;10863]dushanbe,

are you saying that persians are found immediately to the west of the iran-afghan border and on the afghan side of the border they suddenly change to being tajiks?..... it is not a reasonable point of view[/QUOTE]

[Kambiz]

[QUOTE=Dushanbe;10654]I do not understand those who edit Wikipedia. They seem to be the enemies of our nation. In the biography of our great people except Persian there should be Tajik with a slash. Some people in their utopist worlds and dreams have already changed the name of Tajik and delete that from the biographies. That is unethical. Who is that person who decides these things for the people of Tajikistan? We need to fight him!![/QUOTE]

Dushanbe jan,

I am sorry to tell you that as a Persian from Tajikistan I found your view humiliating and offensive. I don't know if you are familiar with the term 'manqurt' coined by the great Kyrgyz writer Aytmatov. I'm sure you know what I mean. Please try to wipe away the dust of the Soviet contamination off. It's utterly harmful to you and us. Do not distort our Persian identity please. All the best.

[Kambiz]

Can you tell me the difference between a Persian and a Tajik?

[QUOTE=Dushanbe;10889]Dear Arash,

I am not saying so. It was a long time ago. At that time there was no Afghanistan and Tajikistan. It was one Big Iran in which Iranian peoples lived. Many of those who lived in other part of Iran (which is your country now) called themselves Persians, and in other Part of Iran (Today we call them Afghanistan, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, and Uznekistan) they called themselves differently. When Arabs conqured Iran, many Iranians who called themselves Persians went to other part of Iran (which is Cenral Asia now). They mixed with the Iranians of Cenral Asia.

You really need to start reading the history of Iranian Peoples and everything becomes clear to you.

After more that 1000 years, I want to say "now", many peoples who are of Iranian peoples in Central Asia call themselves "Tajiks", but some people in this forum say that they should start calling themselves Persian because they speak Persian.

I am an Iranic person from Tajikistan and say to them that we shoud not stop calling ourselves Tajiks.[/QUOTE]

[Dushanbe]

Dear Darius,

I know what is meant by “Mankurt.” I have both watched movie of it and read the legend. The main idea of it is that if you lose the memory of your past, you lose your identity and, as a result become nobody. In other words you are artificially made to become nobody. I understand how that process was during the Soviet Union. But what you are suggesting is a second round of markurtisation: cut off the Soviet Union, forget it, and connect with that past which exists only in the museums and books.
The approach that some people prefer is not acceptable and scientific. The history developed differently in Central Asia and present day Iran. I understand that we lived in different parts of one empire a long time ago and have many things in common.
Although we are included in “Porsi nazhod,” we are recognized as Tajiks. I am not distorting our Persian identity at all. The difference is on how we look at it from contemporary perspective. What you are neglecting to do is to look at our history objectively without any favoritism or bias.



[QUOTE=Darius;11078]Dushanbe jan,

I am sorry to tell you that as a Persian from Tajikistan I found your view humiliating and offensive. I don't know if you are familiar with the term 'manqurt' coined by the great Kyrgyz writer Aytmatov. I'm sure you know what I mean. Please try to wipe away the dust of the Soviet contamination off. It's utterly harmful to you and us. Do not distort our Persian identity please. All the best.[/QUOTE]

[Nader Shah]

"Called Themselves" I thought they were "Called By Others" (Turks, Chinese, Arab) as Tajiks - not by themselves ?

What did they call themselves ? I am guessing they called themselves Khurasani, Khujandi, Herati, Qandahari (and Parsi-zaban) ?

And what do you think they called themselves in present-day Iran outside Fars ? As far as I know, Kermani, Yazdi, Tabari, Deylami, Neishapouri (and Parsi-zaban).

The above are for the post-Islamic period.

Before that, Iranshahr was used to refer to the lands populated by Iranic people (an-Iran was everything outside) in Sassanid times (even though the ruling dynasty was in current Fars province)

Only in Achemenid times, the term Persian was used, since the ruling dynasty was based in Persia or current day Fars province).

Dushanbe, am I wrong ? Do you have other information sources than I have, besides Soviet propaganda history books written by Russians or their lackeys ?

[QUOTE=Dushanbe;10889]In other Part of Iran (Today we call them Afghanistan, Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, and Uznekistan) they called themselves differently. [/QUOTE]

[Nader Shah]

Maskurtisation is about cutting you away from your past, and you seem to be quite happy with that But in fact all you need to do is to reconnect with your roots, no need to cut off ties with Soviet Union. The stuff that is in your museums is alive and kicking well - thanks to Iran not becoming Iranistan province of Soviet Union - in a country of 70 millions, and surviving and alive in Afghanistan as well.

History may have developed differently in recent times, but the culture that is shared was developed and nurtured in large parts in your own Central Asia. It is now Iran's culture but you deny it as your own ?

[QUOTE=Dushanbe;11080] But what you are suggesting is a second round of markurtisation: cut off the Soviet Union, forget it, and connect with that past which exists only in the museums and books. The approach that some people prefer is not acceptable and scientific. The history developed differently in Central Asia and present day Iran..[/QUOTE]

[Dushanbe]

[QUOTE=Darius;11079]Can you tell me the difference between a Persian and a Tajik?[/QUOTE]

Dear Darius,

I do not think it will be right of me to define similarities and differences between “Tajik” and “Persian” because it is not my expertise and even if I try to do so, I will definitely make a lot of mistakes. This is a problem to be solved by our historians and linguists. I hope this problem will be solved in the near future since the researches are in the beginning stage. By our scholars I mean the scholars of Afghanistan, Iran and Tajikistan. They should provide us with reasonable theories with necessary facts and figures – so that it was acceptable for analytical minds.

Our discussions and views are too superficial and are not well-grounded. We have different views and disagreements about notions because these things are not solved yet. I think it is already the time for the scholars of our countries to start serious scientific debates and discussions – and come to some conclusions. So far I have not come across reliable articles or theories about Tajiks and Persians, ‘are they the same’ or ‘not so much the same.’

[Dushanbe]

[QUOTE=Nader Shah;11095]Maskurtisation is about cutting you away from your past, and you seem to be quite happy with that [/QUOTE]

I do not know to what extent you have been mankutisized, but your clames about others being mankurtisized are ungrounded and improper.

[QUOTE=Nader Shah;11095] But in fact all you need to do is to reconnect with your roots[/QUOTE]

If my understanding and knowledge about my roots does not match to your understanding and knowledge about my roots, that is not my problem. I believe I am very well connected with my roots like a green tree, and now blossoming...


[QUOTE=Nader Shah;11095]History may have developed differently in recent times, but the culture that is shared was developed and nurtured in large parts in your own Central Asia. It is now Iran's culture but you deny it as your own ?[/QUOTE]

Your views are very strange. Could you please tell me what and which culture I am denying?

[Kambiz]

Dear Dushanbe,

Yet based on your view our 70 odds years of Soviet tyranny surpass thousands of years of our previous history in significance. Because only then Central Asian Iranians were officially called 'Tajik'. Before that the term was merely a synonym for 'Persian', 'Iranian' minted by Turks and Mongols.

I am not asking you to cut off your roots with the USSR. The Union simply doesn't exist anymore, while our national identity still does. Therefore, I think your comparison was not a success. We are talking about 2 different notions. We have been conquered by many nations in the past, but succeeded to come out of all calamities with our Iranian Persian identity again. Why should it be any different now? That's why I think the term 'Mankurtisation' explains this process better than any other.

[QUOTE=Dushanbe;11080]Dear Darius,

I know what is meant by “Mankurt.” I have both watched movie of it and read the legend. The main idea of it is that if you lose the memory of your past, you lose your identity and, as a result become nobody. In other words you are artificially made to become nobody. I understand how that process was during the Soviet Union. But what you are suggesting is a second round of markurtisation: cut off the Soviet Union, forget it, and connect with that past which exists only in the museums and books.
The approach that some people prefer is not acceptable and scientific. The history developed differently in Central Asia and present day Iran. I understand that we lived in different parts of one empire a long time ago and have many things in common.
Although we are included in “Porsi nazhod,” we are recognized as Tajiks. I am not distorting our Persian identity at all. The difference is on how we look at it from contemporary perspective. What you are neglecting to do is to look at our history objectively without any favoritism or bias.[/QUOTE]

[Kambiz]

Dear Dushanbe,

It sounds like asking somebody else about your name, surname and the past. It is not up to other people to decide for you what you are. I think any person really interested in his identity should make a thorough research and find it out for him/herself. It's better to consider official theories with a grain of suspicion whenever it comes to something directly related to you. You don't have to be a historian nor a linguist to learn your own self and your past to have an understanding of your present. I'm sure as soon as you do that, you will get away from your pro-Soviet bias and see the picture in a totally different light. Read Sadriddin Ayni before and after the 'Revolution' or any other figure in CA before 1920 and tell me what they say of 'Tajiks'.

Cheers

[QUOTE=Dushanbe;11099]Dear Darius,

I do not think it will be right of me to define similarities and differences between “Tajik” and “Persian” because it is not my expertise and even if I try to do so, I will definitely make a lot of mistakes. This is a problem to be solved by our historians and linguists. I hope this problem will be solved in the near future since the researches are in the beginning stage. By our scholars I mean the scholars of Afghanistan, Iran and Tajikistan. They should provide us with reasonable theories with necessary facts and figures – so that it was acceptable for analytical minds.

Our discussions and views are too superficial and are not well-grounded. We have different views and disagreements about notions because these things are not solved yet. I think it is already the time for the scholars of our countries to start serious scientific debates and discussions – and come to some conclusions. So far I have not come across reliable articles or theories about Tajiks and Persians, ‘are they the same’ or ‘not so much the same.’[/QUOTE]

[Sohrab]

I think any attmpt from people of Tajikisan to isolate themselves from Iran and Afghanistan will only damage their identity, language and culture. look at us, we want to be close to both sides, but because of some problems we cant. i wonder what is holding the tajiks in tajikistna to do the same thing what we want. I am not asking for a one massive country between tajikistan, iran and afghanistan, but we have to boost our cultural ties and feel toghether.

[Afrasiab]

[QUOTE=Rika Khana;11122]I think any attmpt from people of Tajikisan to isolate themselves from Iran and Afghanistan will only damage their identity, language and culture. look at us, we want to be close to both sides, but because of some problems we cant. i wonder what is holding the tajiks in tajikistna to do the same thing what we want. I am not asking for a one massive country between tajikistan, iran and afghanistan, but we have to boost our cultural ties and feel toghether.[/QUOTE]

Tajiks more wish to be closer to Iran and Iranians, than Iranian (IRI) to Tajiks more. In Tajikistan, I think, 99% of Tajiks sympathize with Iran.

[Dushanbe]

Well…well…, dear Rika Khana…I hope you are fine…

Actually I did not want to write this, but probably I have to…:

One important thing that should be taken into consideration (very carefully) by those Tajiks who consider themselves awakened is:

When Soviets came to Central Asia, they found a lot of groups of peoples who called themselves Muslims and belonging to the cities in which they lived. In other words, they found peoples who had Muslim identity. To have a religion as your identity was already outdated, so they sent several Orientalists and Iranists to Central Asia in order to determine the people’s ethnicities.

I will not elaborate and jump to another stage:

The peoples of CA were not claimed and were not recognized as theirs by any other countries (Turkey and Fors) and, hence were considered neither Turks nor Persians. The Orientalists had to dig into the history of these peoples and as a result found the terms that were used for these peoples “Turkmen” (there were some new Panturkism movements in CA at that time), “Uzbek” “Tajik” “Kazakh” “Kyrgyz.”

Another stage:

They found that non-Turkic speaking peoples were called Tajiks, and, hence those Iranic peoples in Soviet occupied Central Asia were officially “recognized” as Tajiks.

Next:

For 70 years of Tajik Soviet history we, in Tajikistan, somehow managed to make the term Tajik equivalent to Persian and to give it all the necessary features that Persian has. All our great peoples of the past were called Tajiks and our history was and is called the history of Tajik peoples that mainly starts with Avasto.

Next:

In 70s and 80s of 20th century Soviet Tajikistan have discovered that there are many Persian speaking Iranic peoples in Afghanistan that call themselves according to their religion and belonging to the cities in which they lived (or Farsiwan, Dari, etc.). In other words, without identity with modern meaning. These peoples were not recognized officially as Persians by Iran and Iran did not consider them as members of their family.

Next:

Our scholars (historians, etc.) and government publicly, openly, officially, and sincerely recognized their legitimacy and right to be called Tajiks: they are included as Tajiks in our history books and we “recognize them” as the members of our family and the doors of Tajik identity was and is kept open to them.

And now every Persian speaking Iranic person from Afghanistan who searches for his/her identity finds the doors of “Tajik” open and they are recognized and recorded as “Tajiks.”

Some of them ask: Why are we called Tajiks and not Persians?

The problem is that Iran was called Fors for long and the majority of Iran’s population are called and recognized as Persians. Officially Iran considers many parts of Afghanistan and Central Asia as its former provinces and colonies buy it does not recognize the peoples of these territories as Persians and belonging to them. By “officially” I mean that we are not included in their history books as Persians and are not recognized as such. We are considered only Persian speakers and those who were influenced by Iranian culture and language.

Next:

In last 10 years or less than 10 years those Iranic peoples in China and Pakistan are also (finally) recognized and recorded as Tajiks. They used to have a tribal identity and those who did not seek for their identity yet still consider themselves as small tribes in their countries without worthy past.
Our historians keep the door of Tajik history and identity open not only for those Persian speaking peoples of Central Asia, but even for those many small Iranic/Ariyanic groups of peoples of CA whose mother tongue is not Persian. They are all the members of our family and one of us.

We were called Persians in a long period of history and for this reason we have included the Persians’ history (till the fall of Samanids) to Tajiks’ history as well.

For many reasons mentioned above, I do not consider “Tajik” as misleading, dividing or mankurtisizing, but on the contrary, I see it as uniting and reviving.

.......
........
I am not going to throw myself into the hugs of those for whom I am a stranger and a foreigner. I am not going to enter the house of those whose doors are not open for me. And I am not going to “consider” the idea of ‘being one” with those who openly, publicly, officially, and sincerely did not recognize my legitimacy and right of doing so (“taking it into consideration.”).

Dear R.K. I hope I managed to articulate my position clearly. If to think deeper, Tajiks are not isolating themselves, it is quite the opposite to it. I understand your feelings, but you need to understand “who has considered you to be one of them and who has not.”

Cheers



[QUOTE=Rika Khana;11122]I think any attmpt from people of Tajikisan to isolate themselves from Iran and Afghanistan will only damage their identity, language and culture. look at us, we want to be close to both sides, but because of some problems we cant. i wonder what is holding the tajiks in tajikistna to do the same thing what we want. I am not asking for a one massive country between tajikistan, iran and afghanistan, but we have to boost our cultural ties and feel toghether.[/QUOTE]

[Ahhangar]

Dushanbe,

We all know that officially and sentimentally - there are huge problems with terms like Tajik - Persian - Iranian. No one is questioning that. These are things that have been taught to our divided peoples over many years.

We are a divided up people - so indeed there are these difficulties. We need to differentiate between the incorrect uses of the terms as it is done today and to restore the proper unifying names. We should not settle for the current setup of things.

I am not saying that this should only apply to Tajikistan - it needs to be applied much more intensively in Iran and especially Afghanistan. Of all these countries I currently find Tajikistan to be the most Iranic friendly and Pan Iranic in thinking. In Tajikistan there is a high regard put on pre Islamic Iranic culture - Zoroaster Avesta and many other such things. This is highly commendable.

It is bitterly disheartening when such a sense of of being Aryaye and part of the Iranic culture is not reciprocated in Afghanistan and Iran. So I totally understand and respect your view that you will not push for acceptance in places that do not want to accept you - that is absolutely fine. But this current state of affairs does not have to be like this forever - we can change it with our efforts and dedication.

So - in the spirit of unity - lets not only acknowledge the silliness of our current nomenclature divisions and absurd official definitions but work to get rid of them for good. In that line of thinking I see you as my Pars brother - even though I am called Afghan in official documents and you a Tajik !


Ahhangar

[Kambiz]

Dear Ahhangar,

Our brother Dushanbe did not answer to my posts and a simple question: what is the difference between these 2 terms: Persian and Tajik. That means he's not sure about it yet.

And I totally disagree with him with regard to his latest post. By calling ourselves with our own name (Persian or Iranian) we are not pushing ourselves into someone else's embrace. Tajikistan is located in the area where the Persian language came to existence; the land that gave first greatest Iranian/Persian poets and thinkers. All our major regions and districts are mentioned in Shahname as cities of Eranshahr (Iran). Persian is my mother tongue and Iranian is my land. I have not borrowed none of them from anybody else. What's that complex about? I dunno.

That's why, as said earlier, Tajik is nothing but our Turkic-Mongol name. Before we were Soghdians, Bactrians, Khorezmians etc. Now we speak Persian and ethnically we are Iranian. That makes us de facto Persian. We should make it dejure as well.

[QUOTE=Ahhangar;11153]Dushanbe,

We all know that officially and sentimentally - there are huge problems with terms like Tajik - Persian - Iranian. No one is questioning that. These are things that have been taught to our divided peoples over many years.

We are a divided up people - so indeed there are these difficulties. We need to differentiate between the incorrect uses of the terms as it is done today and to restore the proper unifying names. We should not settle for the current setup of things.

I am not saying that this should only apply to Tajikistan - it needs to be applied much more intensively in Iran and especially Afghanistan. Of all these countries I currently find Tajikistan to be the most Iranic friendly and Pan Iranic in thinking. In Tajikistan there is a high regard put on pre Islamic Iranic culture - Zoroaster Avesta and many other such things. This is highly commendable.

It is bitterly disheartening when such a sense of of being Aryaye and part of the Iranic culture is not reciprocated in Afghanistan and Iran. So I totally understand and respect your view that you will not push for acceptance in places that do not want to accept you - that is absolutely fine. But this current state of affairs does not have to be like this forever - we can change it with our efforts and dedication.

So - in the spirit of unity - lets not only acknowledge the silliness of our current nomenclature divisions and absurd official definitions but work to get rid of them for good. In that line of thinking I see you as my Pars brother - even though I am called Afghan in official documents and you a Tajik !


Ahhangar[/QUOTE]

[Dushanbe]

Dear Darius,

If you want to know the meanings of Tajik and Persian, you should apply to the dictionaries.
I agree that we speak a variety of Persian which is called Tajiki in Tajikistan and Dari in Afghanistan, and we of Iranian group of peoples the same way as Nuristani, Pamiri and other peoples.

One thing that I do not understand is your approach towards Turkic-Mongolic languages...
Could you explain me please what is wrong in those languages?

Nothing makes us de facto Persian: it is all your perceptions. We are Tajiks:D

[QUOTE=Darius;11195]Dear Ahhangar,

Our brother Dushanbe did not answer to my posts and a simple question: what is the difference between these 2 terms: Persian and Tajik. That means he's not sure about it yet.


That's why, as said earlier, Tajik is nothing but our Turkic-Mongol name. Before we were Soghdians, Bactrians, Khorezmians etc. Now we speak Persian and ethnically we are Iranian. That . We should make it dejure as well.[/QUOTE]

[Sohrab]

[QUOTE=Dushanbe;11200]and Dari in Afghanistan, [/QUOTE]

Dear Dushanbe,

We did not choose this, but it was forced on us. We had our langugage as Farsi in the past and they malliciously changed it to Dari to cause division between us and iranians. And so far it has worked well against us.