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this ruling class was inhabited in the areas, like Balkh,fargana,alai,Tajikistan,badakhshan,Kabul,Takhar,Tashkorogan,Khutan,kashkar,Swat,Kashmir,Peshawar, hashtnager,Dir, Bajour,Gilgit,for serveral thaousand years.
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this ruling class was inhabited in the areas, like Balkh,fargana,alai,Tajikistan,badakhshan,Kabul,Takhar,Tashkorogan,Khutan,kashkar,Swat,Kashmir,Peshawar, hashtnager,Dir, Bajour,Gilgit,for serveral thaousand years.
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Who are we? Tajiks or Persians? Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   Afrasiab Icon

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Posted 30 June 2008 - 12:52 PM

Today 90% of 30 million Tajiks of region (Tajikistan, Uzbekistan, Afghanistan and China) name themselves "Tajiks". Only a small part of our nation in Afghanistan name themselves Farsivan, Persians, etc.
But many of our patriots here, referring to different sources, say, that the word of "Tajik" is an foreign word and our neighbors named us so. They say, that we need to name ourselves "Persian" and to forget about a word of "Tajik". I agree, that our ancestors on the whole never named themselves as "Tajiks". They named themselves "Azada", "Azadagan", "Arian", "Iranian", "Dehqan", etc. But today the world know us as "Tajiks". What bad in this word? If its a bad word, then why Saadi Sherazi named himself "Tajik" (Turki tu birekht khuni Tajik...)? If we shall start to name ourselves "Persians" what will change? Something becomes better?
And what means "Persian? This word is also foreign, as a word of "Tajik". We know, that Greeks named so our ancestors. In those days Persia region was the center of the Iranian empire and consequently Greeks named our ancestors "Persians" (by name of region). And if then the center would be Bukhara, Greeks would name us "Bukhrians". But not all Iranian nations are from Persia.
I understand, that we need to become closer to Iran, to our brothers by blood, we need to struggle for unity of Iranian people. But why to force 30 million people to name themselves "Persians"? Why you do not like a word "Tajik"? Maybe It badly sounds for you? "Persian" sounds better, isnt it?
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#2 User is offline   arshak Icon

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Posted 30 June 2008 - 01:03 PM

In Iran:
a)Tajik is used to describe Persian speaking peasants who live around the summer-winter head quarters of Turkic nomadic tribes such as Qashqaei, Qaraei, Baharlu etc
b)In Khorasan province, Tajik refers to a Persian who is a follower of Sunni Islam(Hanafi), they live in Bakharz, Taybad, Torbat-e-Jam. So a Persian who is a follower of Shiite Islam is called Persian or Khorasani.
c)Tajik was old name of Khorasani.
d)Tajik brings divisions, while Persian unites all Persian-speakers regardless of regional names like Sistani,Khorasani,Kermani,Tehrani,etc or tribal like Jamshidi,Teymouri,Hazarah,Barbari,etc.
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#3 User is offline   Sohrab Icon

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Posted 30 June 2008 - 01:25 PM

Dear Afrasiab,

I dont want to go into details of what Tajik and persian means or their roots in history. But the fact is that these two terms are used interchangebly and have the same concept. To force or make someone call himself persian rather than Tajik, will be a big mistake, at the same time those who want to call thmeselves only and only Tajik and resist to be called persian are also in fault. Lets use both these terms for us, in this case we can build the notion of unity in the hearts of millions. On the other hand the iranian brothers too need to make themselves familiar with the Tajiks and know them who they are, the same way the Turks are doing to the central asian repubic countries. They dont have alot in common, but the Tajiks and iranians(persians) have everything in common and as a matter of fact they are the same people. We also have to have the same approach in regards to Dari and Farsi terms to pacify our foe's efforts to disunite us.
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#4 User is offline   Afrasiab Icon

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Posted 30 June 2008 - 01:34 PM

[QUOTE=rooyintan;10769] In Iran:
a)Tajik is used to describe Persian speaking peasants who live around the summer-winter head quarters of Turkic nomadic tribes such as Qashqaei, Qaraei, Baharlu etc
b)In Khorasan province, Tajik refers to a Persian who is a follower of Sunni Islam(Hanafi), they live in Bakharz, Taybad, Torbat-e-Jam. So a Persian who is a follower of Shiite Islam is called Persian or Khorasani.
c)Tajik was old name of Khorasani.
d)Tajik brings divisions, while Persian unites all Persian-speakers regardless of regional names like Sistani,Khorasani,Kermani,Tehrani,etc or tribal like Jamshidi,Teymouri,Hazarah,Barbari,etc.[/QUOTE]


Yes, you are right, Tajik was old name of Khorasani.
Dear Rooyintan, why you think that word of "Tajik" brings divisions in Iranian unity?
Who can guarantee, if Tajiks will name themselves Persians, it will be useful for them? Maybe to us it is necessary to unite Tajiks and then think about unity with Iran? Maybe our nation need unite around of Tajik concept? Maybe concept of Khorasanians is necessary for our nation, instead of concept of "Persians"? And if Iran never will change and if radical shiits never will leave authority and we on always shall remain foreigns sunnits for Iran? Why than we need to aspires to Iran?
Why we must to live with dream of the "Iranian empire" when Lebanon and Palestin is more important for Iran, than we?
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#5 User is offline   Afrasiab Icon

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Posted 30 June 2008 - 01:35 PM

[QUOTE=Rika Khana;10772]Dear Afrasiab,

I dont want to go into details of what Tajik and persian means or their roots in history. But the fact is that these two terms are used interchangebly and have the same concept. To force or make someone call himself persian rather than Tajik, will be a big mistake, at the same time those who want to call thmeselves only and only Tajik and resist to be called persian are also in fault. Lets use both these terms for us, in this case we can build the notion of unity in the hearts of millions. On the other hand the iranian brothers too need to make themselves familiar with the Tajiks and know them who they are, the same way the Turks are doing to the central asian repubic countries. They dont have alot in common, but the Tajiks and iranians(persians) have everything in common and as a matter of fact they are the same people. We also have to have the same approach in regards to Dari and Farsi terms to pacify our foe's efforts to disunite us.[/QUOTE]

Golden words. :)
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#6 User is offline   Afrasiab Icon

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Posted 30 June 2008 - 02:11 PM

I know, that terms of Tajik and Persian are synonyms. Tajiks and Persians are one nation with one language, one culture, one religion, one blood. But modern Iran is a huge country and there live not only Persians, but also other Iranian people.
While Iran is closed religious country and does not pay attention on us, what advantage if we shall distribute among Tajiks the concept of "one nation with Persians "? What advantage of our trying to show to modern Iran, that we are a part of it? In Iran nobody knows about us. All there think, that we are foreign, speaking on farsi. If pragmatically look, what give us our trying to prove to them, that we are same people with them?
Maybe it better to develop idea of Tajikism is better and to become serious Tajik force in region? On my mind if Tajikism becomes powerful force, it will be useful for all the Iranian world.
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#7 User is offline   Sohrab Icon

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Posted 30 June 2008 - 02:38 PM

[QUOTE=Afrasiab;10775]
[/QUOTE]


I know, that terms of Tajik and Persian are synonyms. Tajiks and Persians are one nation with one language, one culture, one religion, one blood. But modern Iran is a huge country and there live not only Persians, but also other Iranian people.

Dear Afrasiab,

Yes, it is true and the same thing is about Tajikistan and AFghanistan. But in Iran the majority of people(i think over 62%) are persians. Their language and culture in the whole country is Farsi based culture and language.


While Iran is closed religious country and does not pay attention on us, what advantage if we shall distribute among Tajiks the concept of "one nation with Persians "? What advantage of our trying to show to modern Iran, that we are a part of it?

This is the most painful part of our problem. It is not only in Iran, but also in AFghanistan we have got the sunism problem. Religion should remain personal. To achieve this goal, we need to have all sort of contacts with each other(Iran, Tajikistan, AFghanistan). This can be done in the form of cultural activities. Media must have a prominent role,especially the independant TV channels. We need to invite each others' singers to our TV channels and having interview with them, showing the drama and songs of each other in our TVs, in this way we can create a sense of togetherness among each other and prevent the promotion of any negative energy among us(unfortunately we have got this negative energy with each other).


In Iran nobody knows about us. All there think, that we are foreign, speaking on farsi. If pragmatically look, what give us our trying to prove to them, that we are same people with them?


You have touched a very important issue. This is very very true. They think we are a different people who have accepted the Farsi language and we dont have any share in pride of this language and culture. This trust me drives me crazy. This fact is true in case of those iranian friends who know that persian is the language of Afghanistna and Tajikistan and on the other hand the absolute majority of Iranians done even know that we guys are persian speakers. I dont know how to change this attitue of them, perhaps our iranian friends in here will give us more information about this.


Maybe it better to develop idea of Tajikism is better and to become serious Tajik force in region? On my mind if Tajikism becomes powerful force, it will be useful for all the Iranian world.


I personally dont believe in unity of these country politically, it doesnt look possible and wise. instead we need to have cultural, linguistic and other forms of unity with each other, it will effectively reduce any amount of suspecion among some people and our enemies wont be able to take advantage of it against us.
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#8 User is offline   Afrasiab Icon

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Posted 30 June 2008 - 03:51 PM

[QUOTE=Rika Khana;10778]
Maybe it better to develop idea of Tajikism is better and to become serious Tajik force in region? On my mind if Tajikism becomes powerful force, it will be useful for all the Iranian world.


I personally dont believe in unity of these country politically, it doesnt look possible and wise. instead we need to have cultural, linguistic and other forms of unity with each other, it will effectively reduce any amount of suspecion among some people and our enemies wont be able to take advantage of it against us.[/QUOTE]

I agree with everything, that you have written. About unity of Tajiks of region I have such opinion: its not necessary to us to struggle for creation of unity state of Tajiks in the near future. It is very difficult for realizing. Now we should develop our Tajik national consciousness. It is necessary to develop national pride of Tajiks in Afghanistan and Uzbekistan and to develop unity feeling of Tajiks of region. It is necessary to us to create Khorasan irrespective of present state borders. It is necessary to transform the concept of Khorasan and unity of Tajiks into a national cult.
In journalism is such artful reception: constant recurrence of one idea will make this idea a reality and true. As also to us it is necessary to distribute constantly ideas of Khorasan and national unity of Tajiks. Wars because of Khorasan are not necessary to us. We should promote the peace and stability in Afghanistan and in region. Because, when in the country it is stable, we always dominate. During the wars Turks-Uzbeks and Afghans always dominate. In stability times Tajiks always live better, than their neighbours.
Now our Tajiks have the authority in Uzbekistan. But those Tajiks have not Tajik pride and the national consciousness. That why they consider Tajiks of Tajikistan and Afghanistan as foreign people. If their Tajik national consciousness has been developed, they would help Tajikistan and Tajiks of Afghanistan. We should use modern technology (the Internet, satellite TV, radio, etc.) and to develop national pride of the Tajik youth in Uzbekistan, Afghanistan and Tajikistan and to learn them to help each other. To learn them to feel themselves a part of Khorasan.
We should take gradually authority in three countries of region where there live Tajiks and helping each other to improve our life. And when there will be an opportunity (even after hundred years), then to create united Khorasan.
I think, that the concept of unity of Tajiks of region should be so.
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#9 User is offline   Sohrab Icon

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Posted 30 June 2008 - 04:31 PM

If the Tajiks of Uzbekistan have authority in that country then why the Tajis are supresed there?
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#10 User is offline   Dushanbe Icon

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Posted 30 June 2008 - 05:23 PM

It is nice to read your sound judgments about how we should cooperate in different fields. Now it is not early 20th century when people set themselves free from absolute monarchy and could change the name of their country easily.

As of nation building, I share Afrasiabs views. We, as Tajiks, Persians of Central Asia, need to develop self-awareness among Iranian peoples of Central Asia who live in our neighboring countries (including small groups of those in China and Pakistan). For now we cannot influence them directly, but the positive thing is that they are recognized as Tajikis. If there will be interest among them about knowing who they are and who Tajiks are, they will get all the answers in Internet and other sources.
The word Tajik does not bring a division. It is in the process of unifying many Iranic peoples in Central Asia. As of our relationships with Iranians and Persians of Iran, indeed, we cannot put a blame on lack of historical knowledge on anybody: neither on us nor on them. It is a historical thing we lived in different parts of the region in isolated countries and it is natural that masses of the people have very few information about each other. I believe that in the near future we shall learn more about each other.
Those who are from Tajikistan know the extent of Iranian influence on us. Our markets and shops are full of Iranian products, in particular music. There more Iranian music in our shops than Tajik. In 1 dollar you can obtain fill album of Shadmehr+Andi+Mansur. (of course these are copies). Additionally, from time to time, Iranian serials are being shown in Tajik Tv. I watched a number of Iranian serials. They also show Japanese and Korean serials that were translated in Iran for their channels.

What I believe in is a spiritual unity: cultural. And collaboration in different fields. What else can one expect in this globalizing world? The simple fact that in this forum we are discussing ourselves is a big step forward and with the development of technology the number of peoples involved in this kind of conversations will increase. I am very optimistic about it.

The only thing that should be taken off the table is name change project of Ahhangar.
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#11 User is offline   PORS Icon

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Posted 30 June 2008 - 06:00 PM

Dorood bar hamagan,

Name change should not be either taken off the table or revolutionary, yet slowly step-by-step by raising self-awareness of people about their eastern Iranic ethnicity. One of the ways to do that is to increase and foster Parsi speaking relations among Iran-modern Afghanistan-and Tajikistan. Tajikistan also needs to emphasize and pay attention more on learning Parsi script which connects us to our, Persian, past including literature, history, and culture. More hours should be offered at school to learn Parsi and posters should be written under Cyrillic, in Parsi as well. Eventually, Parsi will be above and Cyrillic under it. Cyrillic is handy script that we can always use to educate ourselves. But Parsi is foremost important. Rome was not built in a day and changing name and alphabet is not going to be accomplished in a day. It's a step by step process, yet even these steps are hardly or very slowly made by our compatriots from Tajikistan. Tajikistan is not motivated and in order to motivate we need people from here and other active forums to come together and help facilitate this process. I believe all of us can make change and contribute in this regard.


Pors.
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#12 User is offline   Dushanbe Icon

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Posted 30 June 2008 - 07:04 PM

Those who cannot read and write Arabic script will resist the move to it. Like me. How many percentage of our educated part of our population can read Persian?

I probably will start spending some 20 minutes a day in reading in persian. I will see if I will be fluent with it after one year. Then I will say if I still resist it.
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#13 User is offline   PORS Icon

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Posted 30 June 2008 - 08:12 PM

It depends how do you define "percentage of educated" people in TJ. So, if you elaborate, then we can give you proximate percentage who can read and write in Persian script.

I am sure you know there are some difference between Persian and arabic script. Since, you said "read and write in arabic", assume you meant Persian script.

I do the same. Spend hour or couple to read newspapers in Parsi. Thanks to Khorasani-jan who posts various news which I read from time to time, if not all of them, but some for sure.

Cheers,



Pors.

[QUOTE=Dushanbe;10788]Those who cannot read and write Arabic script will resist the move to it. Like me. How many percentage of our educated part of our population can read Persian?

I probably will start spending some 20 minutes a day in reading in persian. I will see if I will be fluent with it after one year. Then I will say if I still resist it.[/QUOTE]
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#14 User is offline   Dushanbe Icon

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Posted 30 June 2008 - 09:36 PM

By educated I mean all those how graduated some kind of collage, university etc. (teachers, doctors, etc.) including those who daily read books and newspapers who are contributing to the development of well-being of the Tajik society. I focus on educated part hear because they are leading the people and influencing the masses.
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#15 User is offline   Dushanbe Icon

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Posted 30 June 2008 - 09:39 PM

Of course I know the difference. Reading Arabic is much easier than Persian: at least you know how to pronunce (i,u, or a). and of course a couple of additional letters in Persian which does not make it as different as someone thinks.
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#16 User is offline   PORS Icon

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Posted 30 June 2008 - 09:41 PM

It's very hard to get into "educated" group of people you defined, Dushanbe. Even I can't get there ;)

I think not more than 25%-30% out of which almost half live outside from TJ. As for those "educated" people, I don't think they are leading or having a major impact on society in TJ now.
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Posted 30 June 2008 - 09:46 PM

Additionally, as far as I know, we did not have our own script. Before Islam there was Aramaic and related to that, then Arabic. For this reason we need not to be so much concerned about that. We need to use the one which is the easiest and contains all the sounds that we utter.

For about 70 years we have been using cyrrilic and now, I think, it is ours as well. The best thing that we can do is to change our script to Latin - like Uzbekistan.
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Posted 30 June 2008 - 09:48 PM

[QUOTE=PORS;10815]It's very hard to get into "educated" group of people you defined, Dushanbe. Even I can't get there ;)

I think not more than 25%-30% out of which almost half live outside from TJ. As for those "educated" people, I don't think they are leading or having a major impact on society in TJ now.[/QUOTE]

No they do. They interact with poeple and their opinion is asked and taken into consideration by the masses.

If some changes need to be made, you cannot do it without their support. For the masses who, evidently, do not even read a newspaper, does not so much matter which script to use. They will just follow
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Posted 30 June 2008 - 09:53 PM

Stop buffling around. Give any recent example and then I will tell you whether government asked people or not.

[QUOTE=Dushanbe;10818]No they do. They interact with poeple and their opinion is asked and taken into consideration by the masses.[/QUOTE]
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#20 User is offline   Dushanbe Icon

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Posted 30 June 2008 - 10:05 PM

well...your hope is in the government now. Those who are fighting the spread of radical Islam. Did you read Asia Plus today? There was a new about a person spreading Salafit literature.

I remember a press conference in Dushanbe during Ahmadinejad's visit. An Iranian journalist asked Mr Rahmon about when are they going to change the script. Mr. Rahmon showed resistance by saying that "According to Iranian scholars, the Persian language that I/we speak in Tajikistan is much more Persian than that one in Iran. Changing one scrip to another is very difficult and it sometimes takes 100s of years." (It was more than a year ago).
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