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this ruling class was inhabited in the areas, like Balkh,fargana,alai,Tajikistan,badakhshan,Kabul,Takhar,Tashkorogan,Khutan,kashkar,Swat,Kashmir,Peshawar, hashtnager,Dir, Bajour,Gilgit,for serveral thaousand years.
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Gabaro_glt Icon : (26 March 2013 - 10:00 AM) Tajikistan was inhabited by the races of Cyrus the great (Sultan skindar Zulqarnain). The achmaniend dynasty ruled the entire region for several thousnd years.Cyrus the great's son cymbasis(Combchia)with forces migrated to Balkh ancient Bactaria or Bakhtar. Sultan Sumus the desecndant of Cyrus the great faught war against Alaxander of Macdonia in Bakhtar current tajikistan.
this ruling class was inhabited in the areas, like Balkh,fargana,alai,Tajikistan,badakhshan,Kabul,Takhar,Tashkorogan,Khutan,kashkar,Swat,Kashmir,Peshawar, hashtnager,Dir, Bajour,Gilgit,for serveral thaousand years.
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Who are we? Tajiks or Persians? Rate Topic: -----

#21 User is offline   PORS Icon

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Posted 30 June 2008 - 10:09 PM

and you call it interrelations between "educated" and masses? Come on...

[QUOTE=Dushanbe;10823]well...your hope is in the government now. Those who are fighting the spread of radical Islam. Did you read Asia Plus today? There was a new about a person spreading Salafit literature.

I remember a press conference in Dushanbe during Ahmadinejad's visit. An Iranian journalist asked Mr Rahmon about when are they going to change the script. Mr. Rahmon showed resistance by saying that "According to Iranian scholars, the Persian language that I/we speak in Tajikistan is much more Persian than that one in Iran. Changing one scrip to another is very difficult and it sometimes takes 100s of years." (It was more than a year ago).[/QUOTE]
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#22 User is offline   Dushanbe Icon

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Posted 30 June 2008 - 10:18 PM

Your last question is not clear to me. What do you want to specify?
If about masses and educated: well... it is very clear - masses visit doctors, parens communicate with the teachers of their children, people ask engineers and architects (consultaitons) about constructions and many many other examples in the society. During these interations they talk about many other things and problems of the society.
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#23 User is offline   Dushanbe Icon

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Posted 30 June 2008 - 10:37 PM

[QUOTE=PORS;10821]Stop buffling around. Give any recent example and then I will tell you whether government asked people or not.[/QUOTE]

First of all I am not buffling around...

Then

Who said that the government will ask (or is going to ask) people about it? :rolleyes:

You need not mislead our Iranian and Afghanistani brothers about the opinion of Tajikistan population regarding script change. As I see they take it very seriously. Our Iranian and Afghanistani brothers will of course support it because they are fluent with it.
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#24 User is offline   Ahhangar Icon

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 02:05 AM

[QUOTE=Dushanbe;10829]Who said it will? :rolleyes:

You need not mislead our Iranian and Afghanistani brothers about the opinion of Tajikistan population regarding script change. Our Iranian and Afghanistani brothers will of course support it because they are fluent with it.[/QUOTE]

The best policy would be to change the official script of Tajikistan to Latin from Cyrillic and to at the same time also make sure that the education system teaches the recognition of Persian script as it is used in Afghanistan and Iran.

Adopting Latin would mean the an internationalization of the script and rejection of the politically motivated symbol of Slavonic domination. Latin script is more neutral and international and is also a rejection of the religious infested connotations of the Arabic based script of Afghanistan and Iran and a reduction in the confusions caused by the omission of vowels in Arabic based script.

Educating the children to be able to read Persian script as it has traditionally been used - will restore their connection with the rest of the Persian speaking world and to their history.

What positives will he adoption of LATIN script bring according to you?



Latin based script and will be readable to the educated populations of Afghanistan and Iran as they would also be familiar from it from learning English and other European languages at school.

Ahhangar
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#25 User is offline   Dushanbe Icon

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 02:13 AM

Dear Ahhangar,

At last we are coming to some kind of agreement. But what do you have against Slavonic peoples? Evidently you did not learn about where Aryanic peoples came from to Central Asia (and then from CA to Iran and India). Please learn more about our roots.

[QUOTE=Ahhangar;10834]The best policy would be to change the official script of Tajikistan to Latin from Cyrillic and to at the same time also make sure that the education system teaches the recognition of Persian script as it is used in Afghanistan and Iran.

Adopting Latin would mean the an internationalization of the script and rejection of the politically motivated symbol of Slavonic domination. Latin script is more neutral and international and is also a rejection of the religious infested connotations of the Arabic based script of Afghanistan and Iran and a reduction in the confusions caused by the omission of vowels in Arabic based script.

Educating the children to be able to read Persian script as it has traditionally been used - will restore their connection with the rest of the Persian speaking world and to their history.

What positives will he adoption of LATIN script bring according to you?



Latin based script and will be readable to the educated populations of Afghanistan and Iran as they would also be familiar from it from learning English and other European languages at school.

Ahhangar[/QUOTE]
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#26 User is offline   Ahhangar Icon

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 02:20 AM

[QUOTE=Dushanbe;10836]Dear Ahhangar,

At last we are coming to some kind of agreement. But what do you have against Slavonic peoples? Evidently you did not learn about where Aryanic peoples came from to Central Asia (and then from CA to Iran and India). Please learn more about our roots.[/QUOTE]

Removing a symbol of domination is the main point. It is not evidence of lack of knowledge of where Aryan people came from.

Anyhow - tell me why you favour Latin script? What will help to achieve - seeing you have experience of Persian in scripts other than traditional Arabic vowel-less script.

You will have insights which I won't - so share.


Ahhangar
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#27 User is offline   PORS Icon

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 03:02 AM

First of all, who are you to tell me what I need to do and what not? Came recently, and now telling what is right and what is wrong. First think and analyze before you post something.

Secondly, it's not misleading. Instead you are buffling around and telling things without any reasoning. General claims that you make, even four year child can do that. Give evidence and back up your statement by good examples. As for Parsi script, it's important to learn and be fluent in it as because it was our script that Ferdowsi, Roudaki and others wrote in, not Cyrillic. Having cyrillic for just 74 years and you are already saying it's yours and favoring it over Parsi, which existed for thousands of years and connected us to our culture and history. Of course, brothers from Iran and modern Afghanistan take it seriously. Unlike you, who you are slovinisized and attached emotions on one sided stories you have seen from TVs, these people care about our culture and history. You seem radically negative thinking about Parsi and our past, and radically positive thinker about 74 years of history. Of course, it's history and you cannot change the past. At least, you can learn from the past, to rectify your future and brighten it.


Pors.

[QUOTE=Dushanbe;10829]First of all I am not buffling around...

Then

Who said that the government will ask (or is going to ask) people about it? :rolleyes:

You need not mislead our Iranian and Afghanistani brothers about the opinion of Tajikistan population regarding script change. As I see they take it very seriously. Our Iranian and Afghanistani brothers will of course support it because they are fluent with it.[/QUOTE]
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#28 User is offline   PORS Icon

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 03:04 AM

Go read some history before islam. Maybe that will help you to think out of box.

[QUOTE=Dushanbe;10817]Additionally, as far as I know, we did not have our own script. Before Islam there was Aramaic and related to that, then Arabic. For this reason we need not to be so much concerned about that. We need to use the one which is the easiest and contains all the sounds that we utter.

For about 70 years we have been using cyrrilic and now, I think, it is ours as well. The best thing that we can do is to change our script to Latin - like Uzbekistan.[/QUOTE]
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#29 User is offline   PORS Icon

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 03:07 AM

Are you kidding me? Where did you get this idea? I am amazed by your unbelievable claims.

[QUOTE=Dushanbe;10818]No they do. They interact with poeple and their opinion is asked and taken into consideration by the masses.

If some changes need to be made, you cannot do it without their support. For the masses who, evidently, do not even read a newspaper, does not so much matter which script to use. They will just follow[/QUOTE]
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#30 User is offline   Afrasiab Icon

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 08:58 AM

[QUOTE=Rika Khana;10780]If the Tajiks of Uzbekistan have authority in that country then why the Tajis are supresed there?[/QUOTE]

I wrote my opinion in my previous posting: Tajiks of Uzbekistan feel themselves more samarqandies, bukharies, farghanies, etc., than Tajiks. They have a Samarqandi pride, Bukhari pride, not Tajik national pride. In Uzbekistan there is under press and in danger only the Tajik language, not Tajik culture and Tajiks themselves. In this country Tajiks on the whole live better, than Uzbeks. And culture in this country is 99% - Tajiki, not Uzbeki-Turkic. Uzbekistan badly concerns to Tajikistan not because of a national identity of Tajikistan, but because of political ambitions. If national pride and national consciousness of Tajiks of Uzbekistan was strong, they would concern to Tajikistan better.
Tajik politicians in Uzbekistan think so: why I need to care of other country and to prove me to be the bad politician for the Uzbek majority? But if they would be proud Tajiks, they would think another, they would help other Tajiks. It is necessary to learn the Tajik youth-future politicians of Uzbekistan to be proud be Tajik. Youth people now are very connected with the Internet. Also it is necessary to draw their attention by the Tajik forums in internet, by musical and cultural sites etc.
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#31 User is offline   Sohrab Icon

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 09:48 AM

[QUOTE=Afrasiab;10869]I wrote my opinion in my previous posting: Tajiks of Uzbekistan feel themselves more samarqandies, bukharies, farghanies, etc., than Tajiks. They have a Samarqandi pride, Bukhari pride, not Tajik national pride. In Uzbekistan there is under press and in danger only the Tajik language, not Tajik culture and Tajiks themselves. In this country Tajiks on the whole live better, than Uzbeks. And culture in this country is 99% - Tajiki, not Uzbeki-Turkic. Uzbekistan badly concerns to Tajikistan not because of a national identity of Tajikistan, but because of political ambitions. If national pride and national consciousness of Tajiks of Uzbekistan was strong, they would concern to Tajikistan better.
Tajik politicians in Uzbekistan think so: why I need to care of other country and to prove me to be the bad politician for the Uzbek majority? But if they would be proud Tajiks, they would think another, they would help other Tajiks. It is necessary to learn the Tajik youth-future politicians of Uzbekistan to be proud be Tajik. Youth people now are very connected with the Internet. Also it is necessary to draw their attention by the Tajik forums in internet, by musical and cultural sites etc.[/QUOTE]

If they dont care about language then they dont care about anything. Language is nowdays the backbone of cultures and identities. I feel sorry for them that they dont give value to their language and culture.
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#32 User is offline   PORS Icon

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 09:52 AM

RK-e mehrabon,

Please, don't rush with your conclusions about Tajiks of Uzbekistan. Having a voice from Afrasiab is good, since it gives you a perspective yet it's not enough to conclude with such sympathy toward them. I am sure there are many good Tajiks from Uzbekistan, too. The only thing we have to find them and stay connected with them and enlighten and motivate those who have stick with 74 year old history.



Pors.

[QUOTE=Rika Khana;10878]If they dont care about language then they dont care about anything. Language is nowdays the backbone of cultures and identities. I feel sorry for them that they dont give value to their language and culture.[/QUOTE]
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#33 User is offline   arshak Icon

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 09:56 AM

[QUOTE=Afrasiab;10773]Yes, you are right, Tajik was old name of Khorasani.
Dear Rooyintan, why you think that word of "Tajik" brings divisions in Iranian unity?
Who can guarantee, if Tajiks will name themselves Persians, it will be useful for them? Maybe to us it is necessary to unite Tajiks and then think about unity with Iran? Maybe our nation need unite around of Tajik concept? Maybe concept of Khorasanians is necessary for our nation, instead of concept of "Persians"? And if Iran never will change and if radical shiits never will leave authority and we on always shall remain foreigns sunnits for Iran? Why than we need to aspires to Iran?
Why we must to live with dream of the "Iranian empire" when Lebanon and Palestin is more important for Iran, than we?[/QUOTE]

Afrasiab jan,

Division amongst Persians

We have already seen it in Iran and Afghanistan. People calling themselves Jamshidi, Teymouri, Hazara, Barbari, Tajik, etc...
People of Khorasan(ie. Province in Iran) know that Tajiks of Aghanistan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan are our kindred, but an Iranian Khorasani(who is Persian speaker) would refuse to label himslef/herself as Tajik, because as I explained in Iran this term refers to peasants or Sunni followers who are Persians. So if a persian speaker Khorasani is not a sunni would use the term Khorasani, Fars(Persian) or by their city name eg. Mashhadi, Neyshabouri, Sabzevari etc.

I myself use Persian, Khorasani, Tajik or even Parthian(because Khorasan province in Iran was called Parthia or Parthava) to describe my identity.

Persian or Tajik

If you look at today's world, Arab League has some 20 something countries.
1)Saudi Arabia 2)UAE 3)Kuwait 4)Oman 5)Yemen 6)Bahrain 7)Qatar 8)Iraq 9)Syria 10)Jordan 11)Lebanon 12)Palestine 13)Egypt 14)Libya 15)Sudan 16)Tunisia 17)Morrocco 18)Algeria 19)Mauritania 20)Somalia 21)Djibouti
and 22)Western Sahara(unrecognised, not a member of Arab League). Now all these countries use only one word to describe themselves and ie. Arab, they do not refer to themselves as Berber or Noobi or Khaliji or Beynon-nahri or other. Why do you think Persians should use different names and labels on themselves? If we want to see a strong Persian Union established, we all should use one word and I think the most suitable is Persian. A Hazara would never want to be called Tajik, a Khorasani would prefer Persian over Tajik, a Persian speaker from western part of Iran would not identify themselves with Tajik, etc.


Greater Persia or Greater Tajikistan
No Iranian want to force Tajiks to become part of Greater Iran, only pan-Iranists who are a minority. Also no body is suggesting that Tajiks should embrace Shiite Islam.
Majority of Iranians however would welcome a creation of a Persian Union something similar to European Union or the Arab League. So in reality Tajiks would still live in Tajikistan not a country called Iran.
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#34 User is offline   Afrasiab Icon

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 11:21 AM

[QUOTE=rooyintan;10880]Afrasiab jan,

Division amongst Persians

We have already seen it in Iran and Afghanistan. People calling themselves Jamshidi, Teymouri, Hazara, Barbari, Tajik, etc...
People of Khorasan(ie. Province in Iran) know that Tajiks of Aghanistan, Tajikistan and Uzbekistan are our kindred, but an Iranian Khorasani(who is Persian speaker) would refuse to label himslef/herself as Tajik, because as I explained in Iran this term refers to peasants or Sunni followers who are Persians. So if a persian speaker Khorasani is not a sunni would use the term Khorasani, Fars(Persian) or by their city name eg. Mashhadi, Neyshabouri, Sabzevari etc.

I myself use Persian, Khorasani, Tajik or even Parthian(because Khorasan province in Iran was called Parthia or Parthava) to describe my identity.

Persian or Tajik

If you look at today's world, Arab League has some 20 something countries.
1)Saudi Arabia 2)UAE 3)Kuwait 4)Oman 5)Yemen 6)Bahrain 7)Qatar 8)Iraq 9)Syria 10)Jordan 11)Lebanon 12)Palestine 13)Egypt 14)Libya 15)Sudan 16)Tunisia 17)Morrocco 18)Algeria 19)Mauritania 20)Somalia 21)Djibouti
and 22)Western Sahara(unrecognised, not a member of Arab League). Now all these countries use only one word to describe themselves and ie. Arab, they do not refer to themselves as Berber or Noobi or Khaliji or Beynon-nahri or other. Why do you think Persians should use different names and labels on themselves? If we want to see a strong Persian Union established, we all should use one word and I think the most suitable is Persian. A Hazara would never want to be called Tajik, a Khorasani would prefer Persian over Tajik, a Persian speaker from western part of Iran would not identify themselves with Tajik, etc.


Greater Persia or Greater Tajikistan
No Iranian want to force Tajiks to become part of Greater Iran, only pan-Iranists who are a minority. Also no body is suggesting that Tajiks should embrace Shiite Islam.
Majority of Iranians however would welcome a creation of a Persian Union something similar to European Union or the Arab League. So in reality Tajiks would still live in Tajikistan not a country called Iran.[/QUOTE]

Modern Iran is greater country and Iran will develop without Tajiks care. We can do nothing to change Iran. But we always shall remain friends to Iran and we shall never do and think anything bad for Iran. Because we feel, that Iranians-Persians are our brothers. But if pragmatically to look, in my opinion, Tajiks will never name themselves Persians. Even if the Iranian world will be united someday, then Tajiks will name themselves samarqandies, khujandies, etc., but not Persians. Because, as for you a word Tajik sounds as Turko-Chinese concept, for Tajiks of Vararud the word Persian also sounds as the West-Greek concept. For example, I can force myself to think that I am a Persian, but I can not imagine, that millions Tajiks can accept it. We can name ourselves Persians in foreign countries in the West, in other countries, because there will be no difference Tajiks or Persians. But with the term "Persian" it is impossible to unite Tajiks of Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and Afghanistan. Only the concept the Tajiks of Khorasan can unite us.
And the central idea of this forum is the concept "Tajiks of Khorasan ". In Tajikistan and in Uzbekistan if someone will start to speak about the Persian unity, he will be accused in paniranism (majority in Central Asia hate any pans), but nobody can accuse and give yarliks to those who speak about Khorasan and unity of Tajiks. It is our reality and it is necessary to consider it. I am supporter of such idea, that in the Iranian world should be three centers: Persians, Kurds and Tajiks. And we should develop this three forces independently from each other, instead of to name their by one name and to tire out in one state. It is impossible to force them. Let everyone will name himself as he wants.
Tajiks will be always interested in unity with Iran and if tomorrow will be such possibility, Tajiks the first will declare about it. But Tajiks are interested in unity as the European Union, they will disagree to be a far province of Iran. Therefore it is better to develop the concept of Khorasan, instead of concept of Persiana. The shattered Khorasan is not favourable to Iran, to Iran it is favourable, if Khorasan will be strong and united (even if only on cultural and an economic levels).
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#35 User is offline   Sohrab Icon

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 11:37 AM

[QUOTE=PORS;10879]RK-e mehrabon,

Please, don't rush with your conclusions about Tajiks of Uzbekistan. Having a voice from Afrasiab is good, since it gives you a perspective yet it's not enough to conclude with such sympathy toward them. I am sure there are many good Tajiks from Uzbekistan, too. The only thing we have to find them and stay connected with them and enlighten and motivate those who have stick with 74 year old history.



Pors.[/QUOTE]

You are right, my judgment was only based on the information Afrasiab provided. I personally know nothing about the tajiks of uzbekistan, their social, political, economical and cultural struecures. Their attitude and some other things. But having some good tajiks there is not enough, we need to consider the whole population of tajiks there and what they think.
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#36 User is offline   Sohrab Icon

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 11:40 AM

I think you guys need to talk based on understanding with each other. No matter what Tajik or Persian is, and who gave these names to us, they are ours and we are recognized by these 2. Please do not show any resistance towards any of these terms, it is not good for us.
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#37 User is offline   Dushanbe Icon

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 05:05 PM

1. Latin is being taught from the first grade at schools while teaching English anyways.
2. A Cyrillic is also taught along with Russian language.
3. Most nations of the world use Latin script.
4. It is as easy as Cyrillic.
5. Those non-Tajikistani Persians-speakers will be able to read our web-sites and press.
6. It will become easy for the foreigners to learn our language.
7. Etc,etc,etc,

Just for the sake of removing symbolic domination is not among the benefits. I do not think we should approach to this important question just for the purpose of making someone feel better. The steps need to be taken according to what is beneficial for our nation (and emotions aside).




[QUOTE=Ahhangar;10838]Removing a symbol of domination is the main point. It is not evidence of lack of knowledge of where Aryan people came from.

Anyhow - tell me why you favour Latin script? What will help to achieve - seeing you have experience of Persian in scripts other than traditional Arabic vowel-less script.

You will have insights which I won't - so share.


Ahhangar[/QUOTE]
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#38 User is offline   Ahhangar Icon

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 05:11 PM

[QUOTE=Afrasiab;10869]I wrote my opinion in my previous posting: Tajiks of Uzbekistan feel themselves more samarqandies, bukharies, farghanies, etc., than Tajiks. They have a Samarqandi pride, Bukhari pride, not Tajik national pride. In Uzbekistan there is under press and in danger only the Tajik language, not Tajik culture and Tajiks themselves. In this country Tajiks on the whole live better, than Uzbeks. And culture in this country is 99% - Tajiki, not Uzbeki-Turkic. Uzbekistan badly concerns to Tajikistan not because of a national identity of Tajikistan, but because of political ambitions. If national pride and national consciousness of Tajiks of Uzbekistan was strong, they would concern to Tajikistan better.
Tajik politicians in Uzbekistan think so: why I need to care of other country and to prove me to be the bad politician for the Uzbek majority? But if they would be proud Tajiks, they would think another, they would help other Tajiks. It is necessary to learn the Tajik youth-future politicians of Uzbekistan to be proud be Tajik. Youth people now are very connected with the Internet. Also it is necessary to draw their attention by the Tajik forums in internet, by musical and cultural sites etc.[/QUOTE]


Indeed this term TAJIK is not conducive to building a proper sense of nationhood - it is a foreign term and has contributed to our PARS (Tajik) peoples adopting and cherishing their geographic identities above a Pan-Pars (Tajik) awareness. This has contribute to their divisions.

Even in Afghanistan for a long time and even now - the regional identities are held dearer - and during the wars this meant that in alot of places Tajiks were not as effective as they could have been if they were all united and acting on the same side of the conflict as opposed to being on opposing sides.

We need UNITY if we are to have full SOVEREIGNTY.

We must work to bring our people under one fold and give them a PAN PARS awareness - and ultimately a Pan Iranic awareness.

Ahhangar
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#39 User is offline   Ahhangar Icon

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 05:19 PM

[QUOTE=Dushanbe;10893]1. Latin is being taught from the first grade at schools while teaching English anyways.
2. A Cyrillic is also taught along with Russian language.
3. Most nations of the world use Latin script.
4. It is as easy as Cyrillic.
5. Those non-Tajikistani Persians-speakers will be able to read our web-sites and press.
6. It will become easy for the foreigners to learn our language.
7. Etc,etc,etc,

Just for the sake of removing symbolic domination is not among the benefits. I do not think we should approach to this important question just for the purpose of making someone feel better. The steps need to be taken according to what is beneficial for our nation (and emotions aside).[/QUOTE]


Removing the symbol of domination by outsiders is not a beneficial thing ? It is emotion is part of human psyche and our people need such foreign concepts to be removed to strengthen their sense of identity.

In reality for a people whom respect their culture - removing the symbols of foreign domination is more than enough reason - if it means loosing many other things, this is a lesson we need to propagate to all of our peoples and stop their constant toleration of imposed cultures and identities.

I thought you would give some more reasons - but thanks.

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Posted 01 July 2008 - 05:23 PM

[QUOTE=Rika Khana;10885]I think you guys need to talk based on understanding with each other. No matter what Tajik or Persian is, and who gave these names to us, they are ours and we are recognized by these 2. Please do not show any resistance towards any of these terms, it is not good for us.[/QUOTE]

Rika Khana - we can discuss the benefits and costs of each... the current state of affairs is not one we should settle for. If something is so weak that it cannot stand criticism and questioning then it is not worth having.

UNITY is the goal - however that is achieved and at whatever cost - it is the duty of us to work for it - to restore our lost sovereignty.


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