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#21 User is offline   tajik kabuli Icon

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Posted 17 October 2009 - 09:00 AM

View PostGul agha, on 17 October 2009 - 05:58 AM, said:

Kohistani is a geographical identity not an ethnic identity. In Afghanistan we only have a few ethnic groups and the others are only sub groups.

@ Tajik Kabuli: only people of Kohistan district are known as Kohistani in the north and they are all Tajik.(excluding the kohistanis of Laghman). the others are simply called Kohdamani, Qarabaghi...etc

@shabir: most Laghmanis who speak pashto are not pashtun. A census conducted during Daud's regime showed that 45% of laghman identified themselves as Tajik in 1977. only 35% claimed to be Pashtun. There are many Tajiks who have become Pashtunized there like the Rustamkhels. Unity is right that almost all Kohistani Laghmanis are ethnic Pashaiis.


Ohkz thanks for the low down about the Tajiks, seems that there are also alot of sub groups in Tajiks aswell although this isnt as publicised as much as for Tajiks, usually the only Tajiks sub groups i usuallyy knoe are Herati, Panjsheri, Kabuli, Mazari, Gaznichi, this are the most popular terms i Hear. Alot of Tajiks are pushtunized not only the Rustankhel but isnt it true Gul Agha that also the Safi r practicallyy pushtunized Tajiks, also there are somre remmant in the Ghilzai pushtun that are Tajik can you clarify this Gul Agha this true? ??? ?
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#22 User is offline   tajik kabuli Icon

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Posted 17 October 2009 - 09:03 AM

View Postshabir, on 16 October 2009 - 08:12 PM, said:

do u know about what language kohistanis of laghman speak? those kohistanis from laghman I met speak pashto & one of them spoke a very strange language which was supposed to be kohistani language. & why 're kohistanis in southern areas called pashayis?

IN Laghman its more diverse than you think main ethnicties there are the Tajiks Pushtun Pashayi and some Nuristani. But among the Tajik in Northern Laghman there is a special sub group called the Furmuli who speak a stragne dialect, ahmad Zahir is tohught to hailed from this group (even tohugh apparentl his dad was a pushtun, in Zahies goverment). Can you clarify this aswell Gu Agha LOL
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#23 User is offline   tajik kabuli Icon

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Posted 17 October 2009 - 09:10 AM

View Postshabir, on 16 October 2009 - 08:12 PM, said:

do u know about what language kohistanis of laghman speak? those kohistanis from laghman I met speak pashto & one of them spoke a very strange language which was supposed to be kohistani language. & why 're kohistanis in southern areas called pashayis?



Pashayis are an uinique Ethnicty they are spearte form the Pushtuns completely and are related to Nuristani and other Dardic groups. They are thought ot be the Ancient inhabitats, and the modern day ancestors of the Ancient Ganhara region (separate form Kandahar). Like us they also dominated the plains and fertile valley of areas in Laghman, Kunar, and Nangarhar, but Pushtun nomad invasion and enprouchment into their last forced them to seclusion into less fertile and pructive land. Though some pashayi consdier them selves pushtun because of their proximite to them but this is not the case. In places like Kunar, Nangarhar and Laghman there once was many unique ethnicities like this, but graduall nomad ghilzai encrouchment into their land, and forcibly assiimilating them then dominated their former regions. So its is not only important to r3ecognise visible monitity groups right in Afghanistan but also smaller and uniqie ancient Ethncities such as the Nuristani, Pashayis, and a couple of other ethncities against pushtinzation and preservation of their Ancient Culture.
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#24 User is offline   tajik kabuli Icon

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Posted 17 October 2009 - 09:12 AM

A famous Pashayi Commander in Nangarhar is Hazarat Ali
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#25 User is offline   shabir Icon

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Posted 19 October 2009 - 09:41 AM

View PostGul agha, on 16 October 2009 - 07:58 PM, said:

Kohistani is a geographical identity not an ethnic identity. In Afghanistan we only have a few ethnic groups and the others are only sub groups.

@ Tajik Kabuli: only people of Kohistan district are known as Kohistani in the north and they are all Tajik.(excluding the kohistanis of Laghman). the others are simply called Kohdamani, Qarabaghi...etc

@shabir: most Laghmanis who speak pashto are not pashtun. A census conducted during Daud's regime showed that 45% of laghman identified themselves as Tajik in 1977. only 35% claimed to be Pashtun. There are many Tajiks who have become Pashtunized there like the Rustamkhels. Unity is right that almost all Kohistani Laghmanis are ethnic Pashaiis.

then whats the difference between pashayis & kohistanis? & ur very right about laghmanis. I must say they 're either very strange people or either very mixed or either very careless about ethnicy. I had laghmani neighbours whose entire family spoke pashto & their sons didnt know a word of farsi & didnt even understand it. so all those years I kept thinking they 're pashtuns. until I once asked his sister how come she & her father 're only ones so fluent in farsi, she said 'cause they 're originally tajiks but grew up amongst pashtuns. I was quiet surprised hearing that & even after meeting some laghmanis in canada who were originally tajiks but identified themselves as pashtuns. altho majority of them didnt show any care about ethnicy or language
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#26 User is offline   shabir Icon

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Posted 19 October 2009 - 09:52 AM

View Posttajik kabuli, on 17 October 2009 - 09:00 AM, said:

Ohkz thanks for the low down about the Tajiks, seems that there are also alot of sub groups in Tajiks aswell although this isnt as publicised as much as for Tajiks, usually the only Tajiks sub groups i usuallyy knoe are Herati, Panjsheri, Kabuli, Mazari, Gaznichi, this are the most popular terms i Hear. Alot of Tajiks are pushtunized not only the Rustankhel but isnt it true Gul Agha that also the Safi r practicallyy pushtunized Tajiks, also there are somre remmant in the Ghilzai pushtun that are Tajik can you clarify this Gul Agha this true? ??? ?

safi's 're pashtuns but majority speak farsi & therefore identify themselves as farsiwans. but there 're more pashtuns speaking farsi than tajiks speaking pashto so I dont think there is much pashtunizing going on there
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#27 User is offline   shabir Icon

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Posted 19 October 2009 - 09:55 AM

View Posttajik kabuli, on 17 October 2009 - 09:03 AM, said:

IN Laghman its more diverse than you think main ethnicties there are the Tajiks Pushtun Pashayi and some Nuristani. But among the Tajik in Northern Laghman there is a special sub group called the Furmuli who speak a stragne dialect, ahmad Zahir is tohught to hailed from this group (even tohugh apparentl his dad was a pushtun, in Zahies goverment). Can you clarify this aswell Gu Agha LOL

ahmad zahir was a pashtun as his father was a very well known pashtun personality. I dont think he was a tajik and hide his ethnic for anyone's fear (as some of us claim so) 'cause its not important only famous personalities of afghanistan should be a bit of tajik....
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#28 User is offline   shabir Icon

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Posted 19 October 2009 - 09:59 AM

View Posttajik kabuli, on 17 October 2009 - 09:10 AM, said:

Pashayis are an uinique Ethnicty they are spearte form the Pushtuns completely and are related to Nuristani and other Dardic groups. They are thought ot be the Ancient inhabitats, and the modern day ancestors of the Ancient Ganhara region (separate form Kandahar). Like us they also dominated the plains and fertile valley of areas in Laghman, Kunar, and Nangarhar, but Pushtun nomad invasion and enprouchment into their last forced them to seclusion into less fertile and pructive land. Though some pashayi consdier them selves pushtun because of their proximite to them but this is not the case. In places like Kunar, Nangarhar and Laghman there once was many unique ethnicities like this, but graduall nomad ghilzai encrouchment into their land, and forcibly assiimilating them then dominated their former regions. So its is not only important to r3ecognise visible monitity groups right in Afghanistan but also smaller and uniqie ancient Ethncities such as the Nuristani, Pashayis, and a couple of other ethncities against pushtinzation and preservation of their Ancient Culture.

its indeed sad but yet incredible to see how ghilzai's made not one but few provinces go through their rules & indentify themselves per their ethnic. laghman apparently used to be a tajik city & ghilzai's from khost or so invaded laghman & now half of the province is pashtun. dunno about the story of nangarhar but laghman indeed lost a huge amount of tajik nationalists & this shows again how careless we tajiks 've been about our ethnic
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Posted 19 October 2009 - 11:24 AM

View Postshabir, on 19 October 2009 - 10:41 AM, said:

then whats the difference between pashayis & kohistanis? & ur very right about laghmanis. I must say they 're either very strange people or either very mixed or either very careless about ethnicy. I had laghmani neighbours whose entire family spoke pashto & their sons didnt know a word of farsi & didnt even understand it. so all those years I kept thinking they 're pashtuns. until I once asked his sister how come she & her father 're only ones so fluent in farsi, she said 'cause they 're originally tajiks but grew up amongst pashtuns. I was quiet surprised hearing that & even after meeting some laghmanis in canada who were originally tajiks but identified themselves as pashtuns. altho majority of them didnt show any care about ethnicy or language


In Laghman when you say Kohistani, people straightaway think of Pashai people, because mountanouse areas of Laghman is occupied by the Pashais, but almost all of Laghmani Tajiks are residing in plain areas and are farmers, Pashtoons can be found in both Mountains and Plain areas.
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#30 User is offline   shabir Icon

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Posted 19 October 2009 - 11:37 AM

View PostUnity, on 19 October 2009 - 11:24 AM, said:

In Laghman when you say Kohistani, people straightaway think of Pashai people, because mountanouse areas of Laghman is occupied by the Pashais, but almost all of Laghmani Tajiks are residing in plain areas and are farmers, Pashtoons can be found in both Mountains and Plain areas.

who 're majority then? & I mean majority by race, not in terms of speaking whatever language
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Posted 19 October 2009 - 11:47 AM

View Postshabir, on 19 October 2009 - 12:37 PM, said:

who 're majority then? & I mean majority by race, not in terms of speaking whatever language


Not sure, but a good and sizeable number of people speak Farsi as their first language.
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#32 User is offline   shabir Icon

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Posted 19 October 2009 - 11:50 AM

View PostUnity, on 19 October 2009 - 11:47 AM, said:

Not sure, but a good and sizeable number of people speak Farsi as their first language.

can u also tell me how come so many people ended up speaking pashto as well? apparently as gul agha said not all pashto speakers 're pashtuns & no matter how diverse an area is, tajiks usually keep up their language anywhere. what happened with laghmanis? u laghmani as well btw?
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Posted 19 October 2009 - 11:55 AM

View Postshabir, on 19 October 2009 - 12:50 PM, said:

can u also tell me how come so many people ended up speaking pashto as well? apparently as gul agha said not all pashto speakers 're pashtuns & no matter how diverse an area is, tajiks usually keep up their language anywhere. what happened with laghmanis? u laghmani as well btw?


to be honest with you i dont know how precise the idea of Pushtonization of Tajiks in Laghman is, because I dont know it myself, it might or might not be the dase. Their are some people who have become Persianized and Pashtonized(both cases). Yes my parents come from Laghman, but I wasnt born and brought up there, our relatives are still there(i should say living between kabul and Laghman) and we have got land their as well.
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#34 User is offline   Gul agha Icon

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Posted 19 October 2009 - 10:40 PM

View Postshabir, on 19 October 2009 - 10:52 AM, said:

safi's 're pashtuns but majority speak farsi & therefore identify themselves as farsiwans. but there 're more pashtuns speaking farsi than tajiks speaking pashto so I dont think there is much pashtunizing going on there


Safi is a geographical identity instead of a tribe. Safis are mostly Pashais and Tajiks but like some Laghmanis they became Pashtunized in the 19th century. Ustad Khalilullah Khalili in his book, Ayyar e az Khorasan, explains how Safis are not Pashtun but ethnically Tajik.
Ba Naam e Khudahvand e Jan o Kherad, Kazeen Bartar Andisha Bar Nagzarad

به نام خداوند جان و خرد، کزین برتر اندیشه برنگذرد
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Posted 19 October 2009 - 10:45 PM

View Postshabir, on 19 October 2009 - 10:55 AM, said:

ahmad zahir was a pashtun as his father was a very well known pashtun personality. I dont think he was a tajik and hide his ethnic for anyone's fear (as some of us claim so) 'cause its not important only famous personalities of afghanistan should be a bit of tajik....


Ahmad Zahir and his father Dr. Abdul Zahir never mentioned their ethnic identity to anyone. But the thing that makes them a non-Pashtun is that Dr. Abdul Zahir never knew how to speak Pashto and he grew up in Laghman. They were either Pashayi or Tajik.

By the way this might surprise many members, Mangal the famous Pashto singer from Laghman is also a Tajik.
Ba Naam e Khudahvand e Jan o Kherad, Kazeen Bartar Andisha Bar Nagzarad

به نام خداوند جان و خرد، کزین برتر اندیشه برنگذرد
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Posted 20 October 2009 - 02:41 AM

View PostGul agha, on 20 October 2009 - 08:45 AM, said:

Ahmad Zahir and his father Dr. Abdul Zahir never mentioned their ethnic identity to anyone. But the thing that makes them a non-Pashtun is that Dr. Abdul Zahir never knew how to speak Pashto and he grew up in Laghman. They were either Pashayi or Tajik.

By the way this might surprise many members, Mangal the famous Pashto singer from Laghman is also a Tajik.


If his a Tajik why dosnt he mentioned it, or is it just me who dosnt know, and how come he dosnt sing in farsi, is Latif Nangarhari also Tajik ???
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Posted 20 October 2009 - 02:49 AM

View PostGul agha, on 20 October 2009 - 08:40 AM, said:

Safi is a geographical identity instead of a tribe. Safis are mostly Pashais and Tajiks but like some Laghmanis they became Pashtunized in the 19th century. Ustad Khalilullah Khalili in his book, Ayyar e az Khorasan, explains how Safis are not Pashtun but ethnically Tajik.


arent Safis in Kunar
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Posted 02 November 2009 - 12:40 PM

View PostUnity, on 19 October 2009 - 11:55 AM, said:

to be honest with you i dont know how precise the idea of Pushtonization of Tajiks in Laghman is, because I dont know it myself, it might or might not be the dase. Their are some people who have become Persianized and Pashtonized(both cases). Yes my parents come from Laghman, but I wasnt born and brought up there, our relatives are still there(i should say living between kabul and Laghman) and we have got land their as well.

the thing with pashtuns is if even they dont speak 1 word of pashto they atleast say they 're pashtuns, but when tajiks speak pashto then they even call themselves pashtuns. this happened with this laghmani family I met whose kids where extremely nationalistic pashtuns & I thought their daddy might 've thaught them this. but the strange thing was that their dad despite of being an pashtuns was very calm & not a racist or whatsoever. his wife was however was also a laghmani & she identified herself as an pashtun & she didnt allow her children to speak farsi & nor did she allow her cousins speak farsi with her children. but that wasnt the funny part, the funny part was that the woman herself was a laghmani tajik who grew up amongst pashtuns & her entire family had completely pashtunized. it was very painful to see that but out of respect for our similar ethnicy & her being a woman I said nothing, otherwise I surely would 've put her in her place.
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#39 User is offline   shabir Icon

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Posted 02 November 2009 - 12:44 PM

View PostGul agha, on 19 October 2009 - 10:40 PM, said:

Safi is a geographical identity instead of a tribe. Safis are mostly Pashais and Tajiks but like some Laghmanis they became Pashtunized in the 19th century. Ustad Khalilullah Khalili in his book, Ayyar e az Khorasan, explains how Safis are not Pashtun but ethnically Tajik.

but when I searched up on the net it said safi's 're pashtuns calling themselves farsiwaans? I even know some safi families & they all speak pashto. & ahmad zahir's father was basically some pashtun minister of whatever & as I said laghmanis 're a bit different in this case 'cause I never understood who of them is pashtun & who is a tajik. & mangal is a tajik? loll 're u even serious?
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Posted 02 November 2009 - 05:00 PM

View Postshabir, on 19 October 2009 - 09:52 AM, said:

safi's 're pashtuns but majority speak farsi & therefore identify themselves as farsiwans. but there 're more pashtuns speaking farsi than tajiks speaking pashto so I dont think there is much pashtunizing going on there


There are two Safi ''group in Afghanistan. One group belong to the dirty Ghalzai Mongols and the other of the north are Tajiks. The term Safi self drived from the name of the local chief (some other assume it´s just a loan name of the local mountain). The Pashtun Safis live in Kandahar and Pashtunwa while Tajik Safis can be find in Afghanistan and Uzbekistan. One group speak Farsi e Afghanistan and Farsi e Bukhari, including Chagatai the other a hybtrid language (''Pashtu''). Pushtun Jats and their Kuchi nomads have adoptet in the last 500 years many Persian terms for their tribes. Also most Psahtun individuals use Persian names..a result that their original fathers and rulers were and are always Tajiks/Persian/Iranians and altayic people as some Indian tribes. I do not need to mention tribes´ names like Durrani and Niazi, names that are actually used by some Tajik and Iranian familes as surnames (eastern-Tajiks use them alot). For example one of my aunth´s name is ''Afghani'' but she is of Tajik ethnicity (remember also Jamaludin Afghani) from parental and maternal side. That means that names do not tell one the ethnicity and background of a district, people or origine. In Afghanistan, in that case Gul Agha is absoultely right, there are many Tajik families in eastern and southern Afghanistan where Tajiks became Pashtunized. For example in Kandahar, sure, Persian is driving Pashtu out there but in other smaller regions or towns like Tarin Kot or in Nangahar or Farah and Helmand ca. 1/3 of Tajiks are forced to use Pushtu because of the ethnical dominance of Pushtuns there (since the Pashtun immigration). They are counted automatically to the Jews (as Daus Khan did). But inshallah, the day of reconquest and revange will come and our enemies´blood will flow down to the Indus and their heads will roll down from Arghandaab down to Quetta and Sri Lanka..., once the foreigners are out there. This time we are prepared for all of them. The Taliban culture and identity is not more dominante since today even Tajiks got Taliban and a opposite power to the Taliban culture.

Laghman is original a Pashai and Tajik region. The Pushtuns migrated there in the mid of the 19th/2
th century, most of them belong to the Ghalzai Mongols. To the Tajik group we can count the Furmals, the original Laghmanis and in some cases even the Pashais (''Kohistani'') who are related with us ethnical and cultural. The Pushtun population (urbanized one) make a minority. The Tajiks along the Pashais and the 'Laghmani TRibe'' share mostly Persian as their language. In some cases, Laghmani speak also in their own idiom. Some Pahtun nationalist movements like AughanMellat and WAK Foundation propagate Afghanistan as a Pushtun state with a number of 80-90% of Pashtun ethnicity, specially WAK foundation who even declared 150 Mio. Indians of Muslim faith as original Pshtuns that became ''indianized''. So you can look and take a bit time to think about this kind of Pushtun logic. Who wonders why all our neighbours, no matter how poor they are, they are still much developed than us (200 years, at least). In general, Tajiks in eastern and southern Afghanistan are sometimes forced to speak in the language of the nomads but they have not lost their ethnical identity and culture. Actually, those who live in such regions are mostly very aware of their situation and they are the first ones who join anti-Pushtun movements (Parcham fraction was such one).

Since you´ve gripped Ahmad Zahir´s background so I can tell you he was a Furmal. His father was one of those Tajiks and ''Qezelbash'' Tajiks who:
1. were of Shia belief
2. belonging of the Ismaeli or Imamite community
2. covered their non-Pashtun identity from the ethnocentric Pushtun ursupators (Mohammadzaia), tough some Tajiks were to brilliant for the infamous family full of thiefs. Some of them have even married daughters from the royal families

Ahmad Zahirs heritage is a deep integral part of Tajik society and culture. His children are all married into Tajik families and are still patrons of Persian language. That´s why he or his father never talked about their origine, but were thought as Pushtuns while they were in fact working against Pashtu, Pashtunism and Pashtunization. Interestingly, his father was a close friend of the Uzbekistani Tajik whos name I unfortunately have forgotten (i will look for the name on googlebook page and send it) who was a memberof the bashmati movement? in Central Asia and who came to northern Afghanistan, Kunduz to fight with Uzbeks and Tajiks against the Pashtunization.

Abdullah is again someone who is actually a Tajik. His father belong to the Shia community of Kandahar who had ties to the royal house. To see through the facts and lies you need either to be political brilliant or you need to know the mentioned persons individually or another way is to read some intersting documents uploaded on foreign defence servers. You have to see the scene behind the game Abdullah is playing as some other did before him (f.ex. his father). Karmal was a Qezelbash Tajik but was considered by the uneducated ''Pashtun elite'' to the end of his life as ''Pushtun''. After his death the secret about his and that of his father´s (a high ranked general) original ethnicity was not more a secret. Remember Musa Khan. Why are they do such things? It´s because playing with a certain population means taking more power and more supporter. In the case of Abdullah, he is actually hated by nearly all (southern) Pushtuns because of his ''actions'' against the Pushtuns and some know the truth about his origine (as some know about Khalilzad´s original background). The story about your Tajik family who speak or spoke Tajik is not really imaginable and so I guess it´s your own anekdote.

Ps: The reason why Tajiks do not need or do not want to speak Pushtu but Pushtuns have is because imigrants have always and everywhere and eevrytime to learn the indigine and original language of a region. If you live in spain you have to learn spanish but Spainish people will not learn your language. Do you understand what I mean? Btw, why should someone learn a language that have no history, not really deep roots, is backward and not related to the region, does not reflect the history of the region, is not the language of any urban world and any civilization, in plus, Pushtu is a language dying out in all corners of Central Asia and SE Asia. Only the strong and the dominant one will survive. A natural law
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