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How do you guys feel about Kurds who disrespect Iranzamin? Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   ZindeBaad Icon

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Posted 29 August 2010 - 03:23 PM

How do you guys feel about Kurds who disrespect Iranzamin?

I've met many Kurds who are overly nationalistic outside of Kurdistan, they're very rude towards Iranian peoples and I have never understood why. Do they not teach Kurdish history to these people?
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#2 User is offline   Sohrab Icon

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Posted 30 August 2010 - 02:21 PM

i do feel deeply sorry for the kurds, especially the Kurds in turkey. Tajiks know how it is to be suppressed, kurds' suppresion has been far worse than tajiks in Afghanistan.
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#3 User is offline   Parsi_zaban Icon

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Posted 25 September 2010 - 01:44 AM

View PostZindeBaad, on 29 August 2010 - 03:23 PM, said:

How do you guys feel about Kurds who disrespect Iranzamin?

I've met many Kurds who are overly nationalistic outside of Kurdistan, they're very rude towards Iranian peoples and I have never understood why. Do they not teach Kurdish history to these people?


The Kurds you are referring to are mainly Turkish Kurds. I have been to Iraqi Kurdistan and many people their feel close to the Persian speaking peoples. they however have their grievances because history has not been kind to them in the last century. hopefully when the regime in Tehran changes some of the Kurdish grievances can be addressed and they can join back with the rest of the Iranian peoples.
چــو ایــــــــران نبـاشد تن من مباد
بدین بوم و بر زنــده یک تن مباد
دریـغ است ایــران که ویران شود
کنـام پلنگـــــــان و شیــــــران شود
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#4 User is offline   Parsi_zaban Icon

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Posted 25 September 2010 - 01:50 AM

-
چــو ایــــــــران نبـاشد تن من مباد
بدین بوم و بر زنــده یک تن مباد
دریـغ است ایــران که ویران شود
کنـام پلنگـــــــان و شیــــــران شود
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#5 User is offline   Parsi_zaban Icon

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Posted 12 December 2010 - 04:15 AM

Dr. Qasemluo on the iranianess of the Kurds.

چــو ایــــــــران نبـاشد تن من مباد
بدین بوم و بر زنــده یک تن مباد
دریـغ است ایــران که ویران شود
کنـام پلنگـــــــان و شیــــــران شود
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#6 User is offline   Parsistani Icon

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Posted 12 December 2010 - 08:59 AM

Of course Kurds have not an easy life in Turkey and for one decades not even in Iraq. In Iran they are integrated and are part of the Iranian life but i Turkey they are not even allowed to speak in their own languages or celebrate their own culture, as long we count Kurmanji and Zazaki as kurdish languages and they are counted as part of Iranian people. The Turkish government, from Ataturk to today, wants them beeing ''Turks'' and politicians and extremists like Erdogan Tayyip are doing everything to reach their soils. I remember you once that it was Erdogan who said to German first lady Angela Merkal that it is a big crime to ''assimilate'' Turkish people in Germany and it would remind him on Nazi´s ''Arisierung''. Ironically, if we follow his own logic the turkish government is the biggest criminal the world have faced because it try to assimilate Mio of Kurds. Some cultural aspects couldn´t ban the turkish government (Nauroz) and so adopted it and called it as an Old-Turkish festival and even now the Turks do not know what this ''old-Turkish festival'' is, except the Kurds. In Iraq, the Kurdish region got his ''autonomie'' with an own parlamentary and many Kurds are deep integrateed into the new Iraqi government and place many key positions. But I guess the worst life have in both countries the Christians (Armenians), Gypsies and Jews.
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#7 User is offline   Sohrab Icon

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Posted 13 December 2010 - 10:55 AM

successive govs in turkey since kamal have been nothing but racists towards kurds, they have systematically tried to change the kurds and make them turks, their language, culture and identiy is under assault. these turkish govs are nothing but modern day fascists. i do deeply feel for kurds in turkey, god help these powerless people against teh fascists.
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#8 User is offline   arshak Icon

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Posted 14 December 2010 - 09:36 AM

I will say to them go and read history. Cyrus the Great was a Mede on his mother's side and a Persian on his fatherside. He unified Medes(ancestor of Kurds) and Persians(Farso-Tajiks) and established the great empire. Kurds and Persians are brothers forever.
хоросон бозорг човидон
http://www.persiangulfonline.org/
http://www.arabian-gulf.info/
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#9 User is offline   Nader Shah Icon

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Posted 16 December 2010 - 12:42 AM

Try to help them learn more about our commonalities, but also show sympathy for their legitimate grievances. I think they deserve a better deal ... and if I am not mistaken, lately the government (in Iran) is giving more attention to development and infrastructure programs specifically for (Sunni) Kurdistan province. I hope they keep their promises and give them the boost they need to improve their lot. I think Kurds are hard working people, they just need the right environment to flourish in Iran. Their cultural rights should be respected and given exp​ression in the public domain (radio, TV, media) ... and I think this has already happened to some extent but more needs to be done. I also heard Tehran municipality employs many people from Kurdistan on public works lately. Afghan workers should be replaced with Kurdish workers, and we should let Afghans go back to rebuild their country ... it is about time. Iran cannot indefinitely hire Afghan workers who are ungrateful and tend to become enemies of Iran, because people do not treat them well, and neglect our own people who are starving and jobless. Priority should be to our own countrymen who are poor and unemployed and willing to do those hard tasks Afghans have been handling. Shia Kurds are already well-integrated in Iran, but I wish the government could create a better environment for Sunni Kurds.
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Posted 17 December 2010 - 01:13 PM

View Postarshak, on 14 December 2010 - 09:36 AM, said:

I will say to them go and read history. Cyrus the Great was a Mede on his mother's side and a Persian on his fatherside. He unified Medes(ancestor of Kurds) and Persians(Farso-Tajiks) and established the great empire. Kurds and Persians are brothers forever.


There is a dispute about Kurdish beeing descandants of Medes. One reason is that the main centres of the Medes were in Georgia and Azerbaidjan, the second reason is they self called the people of the western mountains as their allies, along Armenians, Georgians (kolchis), ''Persians'', Assyrians etc., the same range that is today populated by Kurds. There are some indicates beeing at least to a part ancestors of modern Kurds but to prove it it is problematic.

"The Kurds, an Iranian people of the Near East, live at the junction of more or less laicised Turkey"..Excerpt 2: "The classification of the Kurds among the Iranian nations is based mainly on linguistic and historical data and does not prejudice the fact there is a complexity of ethnical elements incorporated in them" Excerpt 3:"We thus find that about the period of the Arab conquest a single ethnic term Kurd (plur. Akrād ) was beginning to be applied to an amalgamation of Iranian or iranicised tribes. Among the latter, some were autochthonous (the Ḳardū; the Tmorik̲h̲/Ṭamurāyē in the district of which Alḳī = Elk was the capital; the Χοθα̑ίται [= al-Ḵh̲uwayt̲h̲iyya] in the canton of Ḵh̲oyt of Sāsūn, the Orṭāyē [= al-Arṭān] in the bend of the Euphrates); some were Semites (cf. the popular genealogies of the Kurd tribes) and some probably Armenian (it is said that the Mamakān tribe is of Mamikonian origin). " Excerpt 4: "In the 20th century, the existence of an Iranian non-Kurdish element among the Kurds has been definitely established (the Gūrān-Zāzā group)." Bois, Th.; Minorsky, V.; Bois, Th.; Bois, Th.; MacKenzie, D.N.; Bois, Th. "Kurds, Kurdistan." Encyclopaedia of Islam
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#11 User is offline   arshak Icon

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Posted 18 December 2010 - 05:17 AM

View PostParsistani, on 17 December 2010 - 01:13 PM, said:

There is a dispute about Kurdish beeing descandants of Medes. One reason is that the main centres of the Medes were in Georgia and Azerbaidjan, the second reason is they self called the people of the western mountains as their allies, along Armenians, Georgians (kolchis), ''Persians'', Assyrians etc., the same range that is today populated by Kurds. There are some indicates beeing at least to a part ancestors of modern Kurds but to prove it it is problematic.

"The Kurds, an Iranian people of the Near East, live at the junction of more or less laicised Turkey"..Excerpt 2: "The classification of the Kurds among the Iranian nations is based mainly on linguistic and historical data and does not prejudice the fact there is a complexity of ethnical elements incorporated in them" Excerpt 3:"We thus find that about the period of the Arab conquest a single ethnic term Kurd (plur. Akrād ) was beginning to be applied to an amalgamation of Iranian or iranicised tribes. Among the latter, some were autochthonous (the Ḳardū; the Tmorik̲h̲/Ṭamurāyē in the district of which Alḳī = Elk was the capital; the Χοθα̑ίται [= al-Ḵh̲uwayt̲h̲iyya] in the canton of Ḵh̲oyt of Sāsūn, the Orṭāyē [= al-Arṭān] in the bend of the Euphrates); some were Semites (cf. the popular genealogies of the Kurd tribes) and some probably Armenian (it is said that the Mamakān tribe is of Mamikonian origin). " Excerpt 4: "In the 20th century, the existence of an Iranian non-Kurdish element among the Kurds has been definitely established (the Gūrān-Zāzā group)." Bois, Th.; Minorsky, V.; Bois, Th.; Bois, Th.; MacKenzie, D.N.; Bois, Th. "Kurds, Kurdistan." Encyclopaedia of Islam


Ecbatana(modern Hamedan) was the capital of the Median Empire. Hamedan province is next door to Kordestan province. Median link to Colchis is a myth!
Only after death of Alexander(of Macedon), the territory became known as Medeo-Atropane (Media-Azarbayejan), thus important centres moved to other cities in those regions, however Ecbatana still remained an important city.
хоросон бозорг човидон
http://www.persiangulfonline.org/
http://www.arabian-gulf.info/
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#12 User is offline   Parsistani Icon

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Posted 18 December 2010 - 12:48 PM

But having a capital outside of the own ''country'' was not an uncommon customs among dynasties. The Awghans did it, the Sassanians did it, the Parthians did it, The Kara Kitai did it, the Gurkanis did it and many more. The Parthians f.ex. had their country in Khorasan but their capital came to Irak. The Kushans´ or their 5 tribes settled in upper Hindukush but their capital became Kabul, Kapisa, Bagram and Peshawar. In the case of Medes their next neighbours were the Kolchis. It is attested that the Medes self were splitted in some tribes but only at least three were by name Iranic. Hamadan was just their most eastern country´s border as the Zagros were their western border and the province Pars their southern. If you study where all these regions were you come soon to the conclusion that modern Kurds possibly are only a part related with them or if such ancient ''Kurdish'' tribes existed they possibly became assimilated into the eastern people. What I tell you is just the theory about many are leading disputes and it will remain a theorie because noone can say from which tribes the Kurds really came. A newer theory is, which is also seems to be very logical to many, the name ''Kurd'' is not their original self-dsignation but drives from Middle-Iranian Parthian and means ''Given by the Mountains''-> Kur->mountain; Daadan->give as in ''Mitridates''-> ''Given by the Sun/Mitra''. That their region was populated by many Iranic, non-Iranic and auctochtone people with similar names (Karduchi, Curty, Guti etc.). It is possibly that all those tribes becamae the original cluster of Kurds.

At the following link I´ve found something about the Cyties
http://www.iranica.c...les/cyrtians-gk

Quote

for they fought as such for the Median satrap Molon in his revolt against King Antiochus III in 220 b.c.e


Quote

The Cyrtians had nothing to do with the Carduchi, Cordyaei, Gordyaei, and the like, who lived farther west, but it seems plausible that they may have been the ancestors of the modern Kurds.


It would also explain why Kurds are today found in north-western Iran in the region of Azerbaidjan and Georgia. Many of them just moved to north. In addition it doesn´t make sense to talk really about Medes and Kurds because Kurds, unlike Persians, had not any memory of the Meds, while Persians had on Meds and their own main ancestors. I´ve also found the following links
http://www.washingto...s-kurds-linked/
http://www.freerepub...s/1626606/posts

I did not understand everything but it seems that they are at least Iranian speaking people because of their dominant Iranic origine (beside Iranian tribes there were ancient chritianized Arab, Armenian, Assyrian tribes as well) and according to Shetter they became strongly iranized by the Parthians of Iraq.
Best regards
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#13 User is offline   Alan Icon

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Posted 26 September 2011 - 08:16 PM

View PostParsistani, on 17 December 2010 - 01:13 PM, said:

There is a dispute about Kurdish beeing descandants of Medes. One reason is that the main centres of the Medes were in Georgia and Azerbaidjan, the second reason is they self called the people of the western mountains as their allies, along Armenians, Georgians (kolchis), ''Persians'', Assyrians etc., the same range that is today populated by Kurds. There are some indicates beeing at least to a part ancestors of modern Kurds but to prove it it is problematic.

"The Kurds, an Iranian people of the Near East, live at the junction of more or less laicised Turkey"..Excerpt 2: "The classification of the Kurds among the Iranian nations is based mainly on linguistic and historical data and does not prejudice the fact there is a complexity of ethnical elements incorporated in them" Excerpt 3:"We thus find that about the period of the Arab conquest a single ethnic term Kurd (plur. Akrād ) was beginning to be applied to an amalgamation of Iranian or iranicised tribes. Among the latter, some were autochthonous (the Ḳardū; the Tmorik̲h̲/Ṭamurāyē in the district of which Alḳī = Elk was the capital; the Χοθα̑ίται [= al-Ḵh̲uwayt̲h̲iyya] in the canton of Ḵh̲oyt of Sāsūn, the Orṭāyē [= al-Arṭān] in the bend of the Euphrates); some were Semites (cf. the popular genealogies of the Kurd tribes) and some probably Armenian (it is said that the Mamakān tribe is of Mamikonian origin). " Excerpt 4: "In the 20th century, the existence of an Iranian non-Kurdish element among the Kurds has been definitely established (the Gūrān-Zāzā group)." Bois, Th.; Minorsky, V.; Bois, Th.; Bois, Th.; MacKenzie, D.N.; Bois, Th. "Kurds, Kurdistan." Encyclopaedia of Islam


Sorry if I brought up an old thread but I as a Kurd had to contribute something to this subject.

First of all, I wouldnt take serious anything what stays in such encyclopedias like Wikipedia, Iranica and E. o. Islam. Usually such Encyclopedias have their own agendas. Encyclopedia Iranica for example doesent even consider the Kurds as a people it seems. There is no article about the Kurds, but articles about subgroups like Laks, Dimli and Goran. Wikipedia is edited by every person who knows how to work on it. In WIkipedia the Kurds are mentioned as a cross between Turkic, Greek, Armenian and Semitic components. This is purely political nonsense. The Article about Kurds on Encyclopedia of Islam gives also wrong infornmations. Minorsky did never consider the Zaza and Goran as a Iranian People who were absorbed by Kurds but a People who speak a distinct Iranic language from Kurmanji but makes clear in his book “Kurdi: Zametki i vpeçatliniya, Petrograd, 1915“ that the Kurdish ethnicity developed with Zaza-Gorani Group as main component. Mckenzie on the other hand was a British soldier who was involved in destroying many Kurdish villages in World War 1 and very anti Kurdish because the Kurds fought side on side with the Ottomans.


Now coming to the origin of Kurds. First we need to understand who or what the "Medes" were. Today almost all scientist agree, that a People called Medes as an ethnicity did never existed. Further the Term Med was more like an Title used in similar context like Aryan. Aryan with the meaning noble and Med, Madji with the meaning like "Prister". We know from Greek sources that the so called Medes themselves used Aryan as their ethnic name. Media was a political confederation which included many different Iranic and some non Iranic tribes. We also know from historical sources that Scythians and Cimmerians for example where also called Medes. For further informations read " Carola Metzner-Nebelsick: Kimmerier In: Reallexikon der Germanischen Altertumskunde, Band. 16 (2000), S. 505–507."

According to Heredotus the Medes were made up by 6 or 7 tribes. two of them Scythian in origin and one other called "Aryan". One of the Scythian tribes lived in todays East Anatolia and was called Budi. A not surprising similarity with one of the largest Kurdish tribe called Buti living in the principality called Botan/Butan.

Many of the so called "Medes" were in fact Cimmerians and Scythians. If we look at historic records we see, that throughout KUrdistan there are traces of Cimmerians and Scythians-Alans. Cimmerians in Edessa, Cappadocia,Hakkari,Van and around the Zagroß. Persian records talk about Gmira(the Proto-Iranian word for Cimmerians with the meaning mobile unites, nomadic groups). There are records that South of Lak Urmiya a Region was called Gamirk the same name which was also used by the Cimmerians moving into Cappadocia. Even today this Region is called by Kurds Gawirk! This M=W/V soundshift is very typical for some Kurdish languages like Kurmanji known by any linguist. As example The North Iranian Hamin becomes Havin. Even today in this Region a Kurdish tribe lives which is called Gorani. The Word Gorani derives from Old Iranic Gairi which means Highlanders. Gairi is another Version for the Name of Cimmerians in pre historic times.

Then there are the Alans one of the biggest Kurdish tribes. 99% of Historians are sure that the Alan tribe among Kurds are simply the Alans(Sarmatians). The Alan tribe of Kurds live throughout Kurdistan from East Anatolia to Zagros. You can find the Alans From Dersim, Van, Hakkari to Kirmashan. Unfortunately after the Dersim massacre especially members of the Alan tribe in Dersim were deported to West Anatolia to be assimilated.

The Region around Sine(Sanandaj) and Mahabad is traditionally called by their People Erdalan. In Kurdish it means Erd(place, earth) Alan. The place of Alans.
Alan Kurdish dance Group from Erdalan.
The Alans also play a big role in Kurdish literature.

Quote

With regard to the Alans, we have previously mentioned the large Alanian tribal confederations among the Kurds, such as Alans of Piranshahr and Sardasht south of lake Urmia or the Alan aristocracy who ruled for centuries over what is nowadays Iranian province of Kurdistan (Ardalan, or Ard-Alan), immidiately to south of the former.
We have also referred to the name of the mythological Kurdish hero of the Epic of Mem u Zin, "Memê Alan" (or Mam the Alan). This classic love story is considered to be the épopée of the Kurdish literature. One more interesting fact with regard to the story is pointed out by the French orientalist and expert on Kurdish literature, Roger Lescot. He rightfully identified the origin of the story in a narration by Chares of Mytilene, a Greek historian of the 4th century BC. Chares informs us that the love story which is about a prince and a Scythian princess, is originally recited by the Scythians of Caucasus mountains.


the story was filmed here some excerpts.


Another major wave of Iranic tribes were the Parthians who were another Scythian tribe originally called Pani. Linguistically seen most if not all linguist agree, that the so called Medes" were a group of proto Iranic tribes speaking a similar language to old Avestan. They later adopted the Term Mede which was a universal title for North Iranic tribes including Scythians and Cimmerians which later became a part of the Median confederation. All linguists agree, that the Kurdish languages are all actually descend from Parthian( a Scythian dialect just like Alanic ) with a Median and Cimmerian substratum.

Now to the Question, "are Kurds Iranic or Iranized?" Not more Iranized than Persians or other Groups. I assume and this is actually proven genetically, that Kurds are 1/3 to 2/5 Iranic while 3/5 of Native origin. Mostly Hurrian, Hethite, Phrygian and Gutian.

We Kurds just like any other People are the product of different tribes. The Reason why so many Kurds insist on the Median heritage, is because this is politically important and the forefather of Kurds were united under this title just like they are today under the term Kurd. Med was a title used for Scythians-ALans, Parthians, Cimmerians, Mitannis(Hurrians) etc. and the Kurdish tribes with there diverse names are the product of this. Around Mardin there is even a Kurdish tribe called Mitan.
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Posted 05 October 2011 - 09:11 PM

They are free people. ... they live in their own country..
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