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this ruling class was inhabited in the areas, like Balkh,fargana,alai,Tajikistan,badakhshan,Kabul,Takhar,Tashkorogan,Khutan,kashkar,Swat,Kashmir,Peshawar, hashtnager,Dir, Bajour,Gilgit,for serveral thaousand years.
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this ruling class was inhabited in the areas, like Balkh,fargana,alai,Tajikistan,badakhshan,Kabul,Takhar,Tashkorogan,Khutan,kashkar,Swat,Kashmir,Peshawar, hashtnager,Dir, Bajour,Gilgit,for serveral thaousand years.
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Closest descendants of ancient (Persepolis) Persians today ? Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   Nader Shah Icon

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Posted 23 October 2010 - 12:31 PM

In my mind there is not the slightest doubt ... the closest descendants are the Bakhtiari nomads of Fars and Khuzestan ... they have preserved everything you can find in Persepolis and more ... their head coverings (notice that ... very important) ... their facial features ...the language ... and they are also very close to the kurds who were the medes (or MAAD ... or medians) with whom Cyrus the Great made a pact and which helped fuse the two people and create the greatest empire on earth ever seen by man till then .... so very simply the purest Persians left today (and I am not talking about Aryan race because ancient Persians may be a mixture of Aryans and Elamites ... and central asian persians may be a mixture Aryans and Mongolians ... neither are pure aryans) ...

Look at this video .. at minute 1:00 ... the man looks exactly like the persians depicted in Persepolis ... nothing purer than that in my opinion:

http://www.youtube.c.../18/gzwSjGFijnI

Now, let me know what you think. And if you disagree, I am fine with it ... just give your evidence and maybe I will change my mind
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#2 User is offline   Sohrab Icon

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Posted 24 October 2010 - 12:34 PM

thanks for the share, the pictures were absolutely stunning. the song was so lovely. please tell us more about bakhtiaris, and i thought khuzistanis were miniority arabs?
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Posted 25 October 2010 - 07:27 AM

welcome ... and happy that you liked it ... i am not sure but i think bakhtiaris are classified closer to lori/luri than persian ... lori-bakhtiari is even a word I have seen which means they are interrelated ... i believe the bakhtiaris are the only significant really nomadic group in iran that is not turkic and is ('almost') persian speaking ... beyond that you can google as I know little myself ... bakhtiaris are huge numbers in khuzistan all of the northern and eastern parts of khusiztan are bakhtiari, and they are also in chaharmahal-bakhtiari province and in fars ... khuzistan's arabs are near border with iraq, along the persian gulf and some lowland areas reaching to ahwaz

View PostSohrab, on 24 October 2010 - 01:34 PM, said:

thanks for the share, the pictures were absolutely stunning. the song was so lovely. please tell us more about bakhtiaris, and i thought khuzistanis were miniority arabs?

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 07:28 AM

welcome ... and happy that you liked it ... i am not sure but i think bakhtiaris are classified closer to lori/luri than persian ... lori-bakhtiari is even a word I have seen which means they are interrelated ... i believe the bakhtiaris are the only significant really nomadic group in iran that is not turkic and is ('almost') persian speaking ... beyond that you can google as I know little myself ... bakhtiaris are huge numbers in khuzistan all of the northern and eastern parts of khusiztan are bakhtiari, and they are also in chaharmahal-bakhtiari province and in fars ... khuzistan's arabs are near border with iraq, along the persian gulf and some lowland areas reaching to ahwaz

View PostSohrab, on 24 October 2010 - 01:34 PM, said:

thanks for the share, the pictures were absolutely stunning. the song was so lovely. please tell us more about bakhtiaris, and i thought khuzistanis were miniority arabs?

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Posted 25 October 2010 - 01:03 PM

In Sang Aab(سنگ آب) village of Deh Sabz(ده سبز) district of kabul province, the bakhtiaries live there as well. i think they might have migrated from Iran.
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Posted 26 October 2010 - 02:16 AM

Dorood,

I was pleasantly surprised to run into this thread and so i registered to contribute to the topic
I am an Iranian Lor so i hope i will be able to make a positive contribution

The Lor people can be divided into three main groups:
1. The Fayli Lurs (also known as Lur-e-kuchak)
2. The Bakhtiari Lurs (also known as Lur-e-bozorg)
3. The Laks

All Lors are ,in turn, a sub-branch of the Persian people and the Luri language is a derivative of Middle Persian

One particularly interesting connection is that there is a Bakhtiari folk story which maintains that the Bakhtiaris came from Bactria in Tajikistan/Northern Afghanistan. That tale doesnt really hold up to scientific scrutiny but it is an interesting connection nonetheless.

Here is the only real documentary on the Lors and nomadic Lurs in particular, it is unfortunately very brief:

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=waxiLjl6uws

Here is a sample of Lori Shahnameh-Khani. The shahnameh is nothing short of a holy book for us. Shahnameh-Khani was initially practiced during battle in order to motivate the troops and was practiced under the Safavids, Afsharids, Zands and Qajars. The Shahnameh reciters of the army were almost exclusively Lors. It is still exclusively popular among Lurs and renditions are available on iTunes:

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=DpmvIdOqpNY

Here are a few Lori music pieces. Most of our Tajik friends here should be able to understand some of the content because Lori is essentially a dialect of Persian:

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=QMng3ayA6t4

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=XxVveNb1BT8

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=ANJII7_LhP8

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=bf4jUlzCLOo
(Note: Dayeh means "mother" in Luri)

Lori Dance:
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=0CVGENU6gQI
هیچ وقت به خدا نگو یه مشکل بزرگ دارم
به مشکل بگو من یه خدای بزرگ دارم


Go tell the wolves that although the father has been killed,
The father's gun is with us still
Tell them that although all the men of the tribe have been killed,
There is a young boy in the cradle still

Bakhtiari Proverb
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Posted 26 October 2010 - 02:24 AM

View PostSohrab, on 25 October 2010 - 08:03 AM, said:

In Sang Aab(سنگ آب) village of Deh Sabz(ده سبز) district of kabul province, the bakhtiaries live there as well. i think they might have migrated from Iran.


I believe there is a significant population of Lors in Afghanistan and this population most likely dates back to the time of Nader Afshar

The Bakhtiari Lurs played a significant role in the Afsharid campaigns in Afghanistan and it is conceivable that a garrison was left behind
http://en.wikipedia....ege_of_Kandahar

Many Lur tribes have been associated with the Qezelbash since the early safavid era and I believe that most of the Lors in Afghanistan self-identify as Qezelbash.
Another interesting connection is that the turkic-speaking Qezelbash call Lur Qezelbash "Tajik" and this practice still continues to this day, as i can report from personal experience :)
هیچ وقت به خدا نگو یه مشکل بزرگ دارم
به مشکل بگو من یه خدای بزرگ دارم


Go tell the wolves that although the father has been killed,
The father's gun is with us still
Tell them that although all the men of the tribe have been killed,
There is a young boy in the cradle still

Bakhtiari Proverb
0

#8 User is offline   Nader Shah Icon

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 05:51 AM

Thank you dear friend ... this was a very informative and relevant post to this forum ... I learned a lot myself.

View PostLor-Pars, on 26 October 2010 - 03:24 AM, said:

I believe there is a significant population of Lors in Afghanistan and this population most likely dates back to the time of Nader Afshar

The Bakhtiari Lurs played a significant role in the Afsharid campaigns in Afghanistan and it is conceivable that a garrison was left behind
http://en.wikipedia....ege_of_Kandahar

Many Lur tribes have been associated with the Qezelbash since the early safavid era and I believe that most of the Lors in Afghanistan self-identify as Qezelbash.
Another interesting connection is that the turkic-speaking Qezelbash call Lur Qezelbash "Tajik" and this practice still continues to this day, as i can report from personal experience :)

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#9 User is offline   Nader Shah Icon

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 05:58 AM

Absolutely wonderful videos ... I favorited the first one :) ... very grateful for your insightful and erudite post brother ... may you prosper.

I also stumbled on this touching Lori/Bakhtiari song about our mothers, our dearest and kindest relatives:
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

My mother is from Gilan - the greenest part of Iran - and I found that the music of Bakhtiaris has strong echoes of Gilaki music and vice-versal , revealing our common origins :) I will try to post some music from Gilan here and on another thread.

Hope our Tajik brothers will find this interesting and reminiscent of our common roots.

View PostLor-Pars, on 26 October 2010 - 03:16 AM, said:

Dorood,

I was pleasantly surprised to run into this thread and so i registered to contribute to the topic
I am an Iranian Lor so i hope i will be able to make a positive contribution

The Lor people can be divided into three main groups:
1. The Fayli Lurs (also known as Lur-e-kuchak)
2. The Bakhtiari Lurs (also known as Lur-e-bozorg)
3. The Laks

All Lors are ,in turn, a sub-branch of the Persian people and the Luri language is a derivative of Middle Persian

One particularly interesting connection is that there is a Bakhtiari folk story which maintains that the Bakhtiaris came from Bactria in Tajikistan/Northern Afghanistan. That tale doesnt really hold up to scientific scrutiny but it is an interesting connection nonetheless.

Here is the only real documentary on the Lors and nomadic Lurs in particular, it is unfortunately very brief:

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=waxiLjl6uws

Here is a sample of Lori Shahnameh-Khani. The shahnameh is nothing short of a holy book for us. Shahnameh-Khani was initially practiced during battle in order to motivate the troops and was practiced under the Safavids, Afsharids, Zands and Qajars. The Shahnameh reciters of the army were almost exclusively Lors. It is still exclusively popular among Lurs and renditions are available on iTunes:

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=DpmvIdOqpNY

Here are a few Lori music pieces. Most of our Tajik friends here should be able to understand some of the content because Lori is essentially a dialect of Persian:

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=QMng3ayA6t4

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=XxVveNb1BT8

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=ANJII7_LhP8

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=bf4jUlzCLOo
(Note: Dayeh means "mother" in Luri)

Lori Dance:
http://www.youtube.c...h?v=0CVGENU6gQI

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 06:15 AM

View PostNader Shah, on 26 October 2010 - 12:58 AM, said:

Absolutely wonderful videos ... I favorited the first one :) ... very grateful for your insightful and erudite post brother ... may you prosper.

I also stumbled on this touching Lori/Bakhtiari song about our mothers, our dearest and kindest relatives:
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

My mother is from Gilan - the greenest part of Iran - and I found that the music of Bakhtiaris has strong echoes of Gilaki music and vice-versal , revealing our common origins :) I will try to post some music from Gilan here and on another thread.

Hope our Tajik brothers will find this interesting and reminiscent of our common roots.


youre most welcome, baradar.

i will share more videos tommorow :)
هیچ وقت به خدا نگو یه مشکل بزرگ دارم
به مشکل بگو من یه خدای بزرگ دارم


Go tell the wolves that although the father has been killed,
The father's gun is with us still
Tell them that although all the men of the tribe have been killed,
There is a young boy in the cradle still

Bakhtiari Proverb
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Posted 26 October 2010 - 06:21 AM

According to my mother, gilakis are the purest iranians because the arabs could not conquer that region for centuries after they conquered the rest of iran, so they are the least mixed with arabs .. that is just one opinion ... I was in gilan this year in rasht and the people are just wonderful, so progressive and intelligent :)

I may not start a new thread, or maybe I will, but Gilaki music is enigmatic with warm melodious tones, very unique. I love Nader Masoudi and Ashourpour. Now, here are some samples of enchanting and soulful music that I have cherished since childhood:

Shalmane Lakoy - this is my favorite, I don't know why, just childhood memories maybe but my mother translated the lyrics and it was so charming I fell in love:

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

Gole Pamchal - a favorite of all iranians
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

Simay Jan - also a favorite of all iranians
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

Khorous Khan - one of my personal favorites
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

That is it for now
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#12 User is offline   Sohrab Icon

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 09:31 AM

wellcome to the forum Lor-Pars.
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Posted 26 October 2010 - 09:31 AM

the qililbash are living i pakistan as well, not sure if it is the same qizilbash.
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Posted 26 October 2010 - 01:00 PM

View PostSohrab, on 26 October 2010 - 04:31 AM, said:

wellcome to the forum Lor-Pars.


Sepas Sohrab :)


View PostSohrab, on 26 October 2010 - 04:31 AM, said:

the qililbash are living i pakistan as well, not sure if it is the same qizilbash.


Yes, they are indeed
A large fraction of the Pakistani Qizilbash actually migrated to Pakistan from Afghanistan in the aftermath of the repression of the Qezelbash that followed our support of the Hazara revolt
هیچ وقت به خدا نگو یه مشکل بزرگ دارم
به مشکل بگو من یه خدای بزرگ دارم


Go tell the wolves that although the father has been killed,
The father's gun is with us still
Tell them that although all the men of the tribe have been killed,
There is a young boy in the cradle still

Bakhtiari Proverb
0

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 01:02 PM

View PostNader Shah, on 26 October 2010 - 01:21 AM, said:

According to my mother, gilakis are the purest iranians because the arabs could not conquer that region for centuries after they conquered the rest of iran, so they are the least mixed with arabs .. that is just one opinion ... I was in gilan this year in rasht and the people are just wonderful, so progressive and intelligent :)

I may not start a new thread, or maybe I will, but Gilaki music is enigmatic with warm melodious tones, very unique. I love Nader Masoudi and Ashourpour. Now, here are some samples of enchanting and soulful music that I have cherished since childhood:

Shalmane Lakoy - this is my favorite, I don't know why, just childhood memories maybe but my mother translated the lyrics and it was so charming I fell in love:

http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

Gole Pamchal - a favorite of all iranians
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

Simay Jan - also a favorite of all iranians
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

Khorous Khan - one of my personal favorites
http://www.youtube.c...feature=related

That is it for now


Thanks for the videos :)
Gol-e-Pamchal has become a part of mainstream Iranian culture
هیچ وقت به خدا نگو یه مشکل بزرگ دارم
به مشکل بگو من یه خدای بزرگ دارم


Go tell the wolves that although the father has been killed,
The father's gun is with us still
Tell them that although all the men of the tribe have been killed,
There is a young boy in the cradle still

Bakhtiari Proverb
0

#16 User is offline   Gul agha Icon

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 06:04 PM

Lor Pars you are right. Most Qizilbash from afghanistan are Persians and Kurds and they were known as "Tajiks" during the Safavid Empire. They were exiled to places like Kabul, Ghazni, and Kandahar during the Afsharid Empire. Most of the Qizilbash from Chendawol and Wazirabad districts of Kabul are from Luristan.
Ba Naam e Khudahvand e Jan o Kherad, Kazeen Bartar Andisha Bar Nagzarad

به نام خداوند جان و خرد، کزین برتر اندیشه برنگذرد
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Posted 26 October 2010 - 07:26 PM

View PostGul agha, on 26 October 2010 - 01:04 PM, said:

Lor Pars you are right. Most Qizilbash from afghanistan are Persian and Kurds and the Persian Qizilbash which were known as "Tajiks" during the Safavid Empire. They were exiled to places like Kabul, Ghazni, and Kandahar during the Afsharid Empire. Most of the Qizilbash from Chendawol and Wazirabad districts of Kabul are from Luristan.


I dont think it was necessarily exile
Alot of Lurs willingly moved to Afghanistan during the time of Nader Shah and especially during the time of Timur Shah Durrani
We have a very good opinion of Timur Shah; he extensively employed Qezelbash in his army and this instigated a second wave of migration to Kabul.
Especially in the aftermath of the fall of the Zand dynasty when many of the Lak Lur Zand nobles moved to Kabul.

http://books.google....20kabul&f=false

http://books.google....20kabul&f=false

The Javanshir and the Bakhtiari are the two main Persian Qizilbash branches

Now, Gul Agha jan, i have several question with which you might be able to help me

What is the current situation of the Qezelbash community in Afghanistan? Do the Qezelbash still make up a significant population in chindawul(i had heard about this district before you mentioned it)?
Finally, have they managed to survive as a distinct group in the aftermath of AbdurRahman's repressions and the Taliban era?

Sepas in advance
هیچ وقت به خدا نگو یه مشکل بزرگ دارم
به مشکل بگو من یه خدای بزرگ دارم


Go tell the wolves that although the father has been killed,
The father's gun is with us still
Tell them that although all the men of the tribe have been killed,
There is a young boy in the cradle still

Bakhtiari Proverb
0

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Posted 26 October 2010 - 08:27 PM

View PostLor-Pars, on 26 October 2010 - 08:26 PM, said:

I dont think it was necessarily exile
Alot of Lurs willingly moved to Afghanistan during the time of Nader Shah and especially during the time of Timur Shah Durrani
We have a very good opinion of Timur Shah; he extensively employed Qezelbash in his army and this instigated a second wave of migration to Kabul.
Especially in the aftermath of the fall of the Zand dynasty when many of the Lak Lur Zand nobles moved to Kabul.

http://books.google....20kabul&f=false

http://books.google....20kabul&f=false

The Javanshir and the Bakhtiari are the two main Persian Qizilbash branches

Now, Gul Agha jan, i have several question with which you might be able to help me

What is the current situation of the Qezelbash community in Afghanistan? Do the Qezelbash still make up a significant population in chindawul(i had heard about this district before you mentioned it)?
Finally, have they managed to survive as a distinct group in the aftermath of AbdurRahman's repressions and the Taliban era?

Sepas in advance


Here is a great article written by a Chendawoli Qizilbash-Tajik about the confederacy:

http://tajikam.com/f...d=294&Itemid=35

After Abdur Rahman Khan's rule only a small minority of the Qizilbash stayed in modern Afghanistan. Chendawol, Murad-Khani, Bagh-Ali Mardan were populated by the Qizilbash until the 1960s when most of them moved into the new westernized districts of Kabul and their native districts were invaded by the Hazaras. Today there are Qizilbash still in Afghanistan and they identify themselves as Tajiks and throughout the wars they were allied with their sunni kinsmen (Jamiat Islami and Shoraay Nezaar) under the leadership of Hussain Anwari, Asef Mohseni, and Mostafa Kazemi. There are two factions of the Qizilbash confederacy the Tajiks and the Turks. the majority of the Qizilbash are part of the Tajik confederacy and they are mostly Bakhtiari, Javansher, Khafi, Semnani, Shirazi, Tabari, Yazdi, and many kurdish tribes (Sepah-mansoura, Kurt ha, Rika ha). The Turks are mostly Afshar, Bayat and Kucharlu (Qajar) but they are a small minority amongst the Qizilbash.

Gul Agha
Ba Naam e Khudahvand e Jan o Kherad, Kazeen Bartar Andisha Bar Nagzarad

به نام خداوند جان و خرد، کزین برتر اندیشه برنگذرد
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Posted 02 November 2010 - 07:20 PM

Thank You for that post Gul Agha and especially for the link to that article


I thought id share a video that demonstrates the extensive similarities between Lori and Persian and illustrates the fact that Lori is essentially a highly accented dialect of Persian:

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=my5lUEqqNZQ

Lori culture is essentially Old Persian; it has been largely frozen in time because of the isolation of the Zagros mountains and the constraints of nomadism

Hence, it has retained certain elements of ancient Persian culture that can correctly be called "primitive" in a modern context (e.g. Tribalism, Uber-Militarism, and especially Militarism that is shaped by near-manic religious extremism (this is, ofcourse, the ethno-genesis of the Qizilbash), Obsession with blood feuds, banditry, tribal raiding and rigid tribal hierarchies)

Im extremely proud of my heritage and it must be said that there are also a myriad noble qualities that characterize the traditional Lur lifestyle; nevertheless, i dont hesitate to criticize its ills.
The future lies in integrating Lurs into mainstream urban persian culture but doing so in a manner that allows us to preserve our identity.
I dont advocate a traditionalist Lur lifestyle but i am also vehemently against unnecessarily fast modernization attempts, like those undertaken by Reza Shah, which attempted to modernize us at gunpoint.
هیچ وقت به خدا نگو یه مشکل بزرگ دارم
به مشکل بگو من یه خدای بزرگ دارم


Go tell the wolves that although the father has been killed,
The father's gun is with us still
Tell them that although all the men of the tribe have been killed,
There is a young boy in the cradle still

Bakhtiari Proverb
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Posted 03 November 2010 - 03:39 AM

Based on the video it closely matches modern Persian.

I wonder what are the academic criteria for classification as a 'dialect' rather than a language ? Also, what other groups do you consider speaking a dialect of Persian in Iran ... for example, Gilaki and Mazandarani are sometimes classified as dialects, others disagree with that label. ( In Europe, languages that are very close - perhaps as close as Luri is to Persian - are not classified as dialects, I am thinking of Dutch vs. German.)

Another topic for discussion: is modern Persian really a language that originated in Central Asia (Uzbekistan, Tajikistan) - as Afghans and Tajiks claim - or not, in your opinion ? Given that most of the early Persian litterature came from there after Islam ... My point is that the original Persians of Persia (Fars Province as well as neighboring areas) may have spoken a different form of Persian from that which evolved in Central Asia. Some even argue that the language of Sassanid Persia (Pahlavi) was closer to modern day Kurdish than any other language (or other 'Median' languages which probably include Talishi, Gilaki and Mazandarani as well).

Obviously, modern Persian spread largely to the cities and not to so much to rural areas ... and may have started simply as a language of the learned elites, and took hundreds of years to replace other 'dialects' ...

View PostLor-Pars, on 02 November 2010 - 08:20 PM, said:

... Lori is essentially a highly accented dialect of Persian ... Lori culture is essentially Old Persian; it has been largely frozen in time because of the isolation of the Zagros mountains and the constraints of nomadism

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