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Should Pashtuns be classified as Iranic? Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   ZindeBaad Icon

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 10:34 PM

Discuss (please, no racism).
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#2 User is offline   Gul agha Icon

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Posted 02 November 2010 - 11:38 PM

Yes, because the majority within the Pashtun confederacy are Iranic (The Durranis and the Ghilzais).
Ba Naam e Khudahvand e Jan o Kherad, Kazeen Bartar Andisha Bar Nagzarad

به نام خداوند جان و خرد، کزین برتر اندیشه برنگذرد
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#3 User is offline   Nader Shah Icon

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 02:27 AM

What do the Pashtun intellectuals think ?

As for Pashto language, there is no doubt that it is classified as "Iranic" by academics.

As to Pashto ethnicity or "race", like most other groups in Iran and Central Asia they must be mixtures of different people.

View PostZindeBaad, on 02 November 2010 - 11:34 PM, said:

Discuss (please, no racism).

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#4 User is offline   ZindeBaad Icon

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 06:36 AM

Are they culturally more akin to mainstream Persian culture or are they closer to a tribal Iranic culture with a heavy mixture of Pakistani culture?
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#5 User is offline   Sohrab Icon

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 11:08 AM

the pashtons are divided by three groups: Duranis that some people think they are aryans, the Ghilzais that it is thought they have turkic orign, and the Karlanis which is mostly living in pakistan are said to be from jewish origin. the pakistani pashtoons overwhelmenigly believe they are jews, the afghanistan's pashtoons on the other hand are divied on the matter. the israelis have also shown interest in this matter ad classify the pashtoons as the lost tribes of israel, i am sure you might have seen the documentries about jewish orign of pashtoons on the youutbe.
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#6 User is offline   Sohrab Icon

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Posted 03 November 2010 - 11:10 AM

View PostNader Shah, on 03 November 2010 - 02:27 AM, said:

What do the Pashtun intellectuals think ?

As for Pashto language, there is no doubt that it is classified as "Iranic" by academics.

As to Pashto ethnicity or "race", like most other groups in Iran and Central Asia they must be mixtures of different people.


I am not good in liguistics, but pashtoo language have got strong elements of sansikrit as well as indo european.
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#7 User is offline   قزلباش Icon

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 04:41 PM

It really depends on how we define "Iranic"

Linguistically, they certainly are Iranic

Culturally, Im not so sure
Lurs, Persians, Gilaks, Mazandaranis, Kurds all celebrate the Nowruz and culturally identify with the Shahnameh
As far as I know, Pashtuns dont

I guess the real question is:
How useful is the label "Iranic"?
هیچ وقت به خدا نگو یه مشکل بزرگ دارم
به مشکل بگو من یه خدای بزرگ دارم


Go tell the wolves that although the father has been killed,
The father's gun is with us still
Tell them that although all the men of the tribe have been killed,
There is a young boy in the cradle still

Bakhtiari Proverb
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#8 User is offline   Nader Shah Icon

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 05:23 PM

Based on the little I have learned in conversations with people from Afghanistan, for the purpose of this conversation Pashtoons are not culturally uniform. Many of the better educated ones feel close to Persian culture and are bilingual... I think there are even 'tribes' that fit into that category (I think the Popolzai which Karzai comes from fit into that). But we really need someone from Afghanistan to clarify this matter, I know very little.

View PostLor-Pars, on 04 November 2010 - 05:41 PM, said:

It really depends on how we define "Iranic"

Linguistically, they certainly are Iranic

Culturally, Im not so sure
Lurs, Persians, Gilaks, Mazandaranis, Kurds all celebrate the Nowruz and culturally identify with the Shahnameh
As far as I know, Pashtuns dont

I guess the real question is:
How useful is the label "Iranic"?

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#9 User is offline   Nader Shah Icon

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 05:35 PM

Academic only. Iranic is a new term... I am not even sure it is used in academic circles, perhaps only on the internet, because it is repulsive to those who don't like to be classified as members of an 'Iranian' group, for obvious reasons. Going with gut feeling, Pashtoons both look-wise and culturally ((music, accent) are a mixture of Iranic and Indic, regardless of their academic classification, but some are more 'Iranic' and less Indic. However, if you use the same criteria, outsiders say that many in Iran are a mixture of 'Iranic" and Assyrian, Arab, Elamite, Asianic (term used by Roman Ghirshman).

View PostLor-Pars, on 04 November 2010 - 05:41 PM, said:

I guess the real question is:
How useful is the label "Iranic"?

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#10 User is offline   قزلباش Icon

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 05:52 PM

View PostNader Shah, on 04 November 2010 - 12:23 PM, said:

Based on the little I have learned in conversations with people from Afghanistan, for the purpose of this conversation Pashtoons are not culturally uniform. Many of the better educated ones feel close to Persian culture and are bilingual... I think there are even 'tribes' that fit into that category (I think the Popolzai which Karzai comes from fit into that). But we really need someone from Afghanistan to clarify this matter, I know very little.


The elite Pashtun tribes are highly Persianized due to their interactions with the Qizilbash

Timur Shah Durrani and Dost Mohammad Khan were both half Qizilbash
The Pashtun elite has a great deal of Qizilbash Persian influence, both by blood and culture.

However, the Pashtun elite makes up a small fraction of the Pashtun ethnic group and, more importantly, the Pashtun elite doesnt really represent Pashtuns.
It only presents yet another example of Perso-Islamic royalty.

During the time of Timur Shah Durrani, every single one of his advisers were Qizilbash (without any exceptions), and for some years at the height of the 1790's revolts in southern afghanistan, the royal army was entirely composed of chendawoli Qizilbash mercenaries

It would be folly to take the royal family, or even the Durranis as a whole, as representative of Pashtun culture.
An individual from the Pashtun elite has more in common with Persians than with the average Pashtun tribesman from the Af-Pak border.

Its fascinating to observe that the dichotomy of the "civilized" persianized Durrani pashtun vs the "uncivilized" Ghilzai pashtun streches back to the time of the Safavids and the Afshars and it has presisted to this day in the form of the dichotomy between the civilized persianate Durrani (Karzai) vs. the uncivilized Ghilzai (Mullah Omar).

In short,
It think its misleading to use a small, albeit highly visible, Persianate Durrani minority to draw conclusions about the Pashtun ethnic group.
هیچ وقت به خدا نگو یه مشکل بزرگ دارم
به مشکل بگو من یه خدای بزرگ دارم


Go tell the wolves that although the father has been killed,
The father's gun is with us still
Tell them that although all the men of the tribe have been killed,
There is a young boy in the cradle still

Bakhtiari Proverb
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#11 User is offline   Gul agha Icon

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 09:15 PM

The Durranis and Ghilzais are racially Iranic. The Durranis are the ancient Hephthalites (Aptaalis-Abdaalis) who fled to India when they were attacked by the Sassanids. The Ghilzais are too Iranic and are descendants of many groups of the Ashvakas and Kambojas who adopted the south-eastern Saka (Pashto) language of the Hephthalites. They are not culturally Iranic because their Iranian ancestors (the nomadic Scythians) had no particular culture like the settled Iranians. This does not mean all of the Scythians are Pashtun and vice versa. Most of the Scythian population became sedentary in Central Asia and in Sistan and are known as Persian or Tajik today. There is a possibility that the Ghilzais are also the Pactyans that the Greeks mentioned.
Ba Naam e Khudahvand e Jan o Kherad, Kazeen Bartar Andisha Bar Nagzarad

به نام خداوند جان و خرد، کزین برتر اندیشه برنگذرد
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#12 User is offline   ZindeBaad Icon

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Posted 04 November 2010 - 09:31 PM

View PostLor-Pars, on 04 November 2010 - 04:41 PM, said:

Culturally, Im not so sure
Lurs, Persians, Gilaks, Mazandaranis, Kurds all celebrate the Nowruz and culturally identify with the Shahnameh
As far as I know, Pashtuns dont


I agree, Pashtuns are not culturally Iranic.
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#13 User is offline   Nader Shah Icon

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 04:22 AM

Interesting, I researched a bit more about Hephtalites ... learned a few facts and learned of a few opinions of academics. So, what do you think about Pashtoons ... as AliG says crudely are they wack or are they any good?

View PostGul agha, on 04 November 2010 - 10:15 PM, said:

The Durranis and Ghilzais are racially Iranic. The Durranis are the ancient Hephthalites (Aptaalis-Abdaalis) who fled to India when they were attacked by the Sassanids. The Ghilzais are too Iranic and are descendants of many groups of the Ashvakas and Kambojas who adopted the south-eastern Saka (Pashto) language of the Hephthalites. They are not culturally Iranic because their Iranian ancestors (the nomadic Scythians) had no particular culture like the settled Iranians. This does not mean all of the Scythians are Pashtun and vice versa. Most of the Scythian population became sedentary in Central Asia and in Sistan and are known as Persian or Tajik today. There is a possibility that the Ghilzais are also the Pactyans that the Greeks mentioned.

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#14 User is offline   Nader Shah Icon

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 04:29 AM

The same could be said of Kurds ... I see Kurdish accent sounding more like Arabic in Iran and Iraq just as Pashtoon accent sounds Indian. Kurds and Pashtoons are both warlike and have temper tantrums. Pashtuns claim the Avestan legacy and rightly so, together with Tajiks, given the geographic context of the Avestan locations and Sistan's role in ancient Iranian history. Kurds talk about Kaveh Ahangar, Zahhak the Assyrian tyrant and so on. I am not so biased as to think Kurds are pure Iranic and Pashtuns are foreigners. We as Iranians tend to be biased ... So, I am only looking for facts, without any agenda, but I won't accept any bias from one side or another. True, today's Kurds and Pashtuns in their majority do not identify with Iran or Persians, but I don't think Pashtoons are the one exception here, same with Kurds. One is Assyrian-Semitic influenced, the other is Indic-influenced ... my opinion. I don't look at skin color either as a sign of purity ...

View PostZindeBaad, on 04 November 2010 - 10:31 PM, said:

I agree, Pashtuns are not culturally Iranic.

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#15 User is offline   Parsi_zaban Icon

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 09:47 AM

View PostNader Shah, on 05 November 2010 - 04:29 AM, said:

The same could be said of Kurds ... I see Kurdish accent sounding more like Arabic in Iran and Iraq just as Pashtoon accent sounds Indian. Kurds and Pashtoons are both warlike and have temper tantrums. Pashtuns claim the Avestan legacy and rightly so, together with Tajiks, given the geographic context of the Avestan locations and Sistan's role in ancient Iranian history. Kurds talk about Kaveh Ahangar, Zahhak the Assyrian tyrant and so on. I am not so biased as to think Kurds are pure Iranic and Pashtuns are foreigners. We as Iranians tend to be biased ... So, I am only looking for facts, without any agenda, but I won't accept any bias from one side or another. True, today's Kurds and Pashtuns in their majority do not identify with Iran or Persians, but I don't think Pashtoons are the one exception here, same with Kurds. One is Assyrian-Semitic influenced, the other is Indic-influenced ... my opinion. I don't look at skin color either as a sign of purity ...


you cant compare kurds with pashtoons. I agree pashtuns are not iranic, but Kurds are 100 percent iranic, they do not identify with the iranic state because they have been oppressed by it. their language banned and economically discriminated against. they are culturally as iranian as me and you, they have same mythology as persians. 2ndly kurds are not naturally war like, they have fought for their human rights in the past 80 years or so. they either to bent over and accept arab, turk indenitity or fight it. they chose to fight for identity and i respect them for that.
چــو ایــــــــران نبـاشد تن من مباد
بدین بوم و بر زنــده یک تن مباد
دریـغ است ایــران که ویران شود
کنـام پلنگـــــــان و شیــــــران شود
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#16 User is offline   Sohrab Icon

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Posted 05 November 2010 - 07:26 PM

These youtube clips might not prove anyting, but it is worth to watch it.


http://www.youtube.c...h?v=spgadghuA-w

http://www.youtube.c...coDkPDAgZM&NR=1

http://www.youtube.c...wVZdK3aAQs&NR=1

http://www.youtube.c...qGYW3thWm4&NR=1

http://www.youtube.c...ysoLOgmTAI&NR=1

http://www.youtube.c...Y9z1CdwVkU&NR=1

http://www.youtube.c...amEL7qEpvQ&NR=1
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#17 User is offline   Parsistani Icon

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Posted 06 November 2010 - 05:29 PM

View PostGul agha, on 02 November 2010 - 11:38 PM, said:

Yes, because the majority within the Pashtun confederacy are Iranic (The Durranis and the Ghilzais).



No they aren´t. They became Indo-Aryanized, Persianized and Dravidized. The Ghalzais are originally of Turko-Mongol origine and are still called as Khalaj or Chaldshish. They have more M34 gen cluster in their filthy blood than Punjabis which give us the picture of a strong dravidian origine on their maternal line (from motherside). The central Asian Turks, Mongols, Tibetans (look herefore also the notes of Vihara Mihira, the Gandarian historian and writer) infiltrated their mountains, hills and lands for more than 1600 years ago. The confoderation of Hephtalithes (Soghdian, Bactrian, Choresmian, ''Turks and Mongols'', Koreans ...) left there trace on Pashtuns under their real ethnical east-Asian, possibly Korean or proto-Turko-Mongolian origin, name, Ye-tha-i-li-to, iranized Yaftali, Arabized Abdali (''Slave of Ali). When the Gokturks beat their hound forefathers in a alliance with the Persians, the filthy nomadic East Asian dogs, as nomadic tribes, fled over the Hindukush to modern Pakistan and reformed themself again in todays NWFP where they were able to raise again and bring in only 20 years the most darkest era to greater India. In northwest India, these dogs were first bringing the diverse tribes and nations under their rule and with the time these dogs adoptet the language of one of these tribes, mostly of the powerful one and became assimilated, most time through looting, raping, kidnapping etc, see on the traditions of Pashtunwali, the code of world Gays nr. 1. When filthy Khalaj Turko-Mongols, also part of the Yaftali confederation established themself like the Indian Yaftalis they challenged the Pakis of NWFP and became even their rulers. By annexing more and more tribes also these dogs became more powerful and came into rivals with the Abdalis. From then, they were known as dogs and canibals. When Tibetans became the ruler of nwfp and a part of central Asia, vihara Mihira tell us that the ''Avagana'' people became more powerful because of their confederation with Huns, Tibetans, the people of ''Cin'' (China). In the 12th century, even Mongol tribes lose their ways in their homelands. The establishment of an ''Aoghan'' ''nation'' was based on stepe traditions (nomadism) and barbarian customs that let people join eachother (Tocharians and the Jua Jua f.ex.). The Ghalzai Pashtuns were not even recognized as Afghans in the 17th century. The Afghans, the Abdalis, were calling them with other nations still as Khalajs

Quote

...Pashto-speaking tribes in Afghanistan, whose traditional territory extended from Ghazni and Kalat-i-Ghilzai eastward into the Indus Valley. They are reputed to be descended at least in part from the Khalaj or Khilji Turks, who entered Afghanistan in the 10th century. The Lodi, who established a dynasty on the throne of Delhi in Hindustan (1450–1526), were a branch of the Ghilzay, and in...
http://www.britannic...c/316081/Khalaj


and not as Afghans. Tough we have some old and ancient words like avagana etc. to which also some other nations belonged like the Nuristanis and with 100% certainty the term ''Afghan'' drived from it, we can say the ancient ''Pashtuns'' recruited themself from other nations, autochtones, indigenes, new comer, foreigners, nomads, monkies, dogs, cave-monkies, conquerers, barbarians etc. as they tried to form a new nation during the last two centuries by covering on all NON-PASHTUNs (Tajiks, Hazaras, Nuristanis, Uzbeks etc.) with the filthy misbegotten term ''Afghan''. The difference today is, unlike their past, these filthy dogs became even dumber and wilder and have and were no succesful with a Pashtunization. However, we can not really compare modern middle-age Pashtuns with the ancient ''Afghans'' aka ''Pashtuns''. Tough, the ancient and the modern middle-age Pashtuns practizes are in many things the same, modern Pashtuns are huge arabized and in general semitificated, more wilder, more backward (in ancient era, the word backward was not developed for their life style and barbarian acts since nearly all nations live the same way) and are not even identical with their died out ''ancestors''. From the 15th century to the 19th century, Paki tribes, even gypsies (Jogizai, Jatakhel etc.) became part of Pashtuns and their Kuchis. Even Tajiks in eastern Afghanistan and some in south Afghanistan became ''Pashtuns'' (f.ex. Shamalzai from Zabul, Tajikhel, Dehqaani).

Their entire myths about their origine is jewish, arabic, turkic, mongolian or indo-dravidic that have behind their messages many truth. Why they have names tribal or confederation names like Ghurghusht (Kirgyz), Klnarai (dravidian), Ghalzai->Khalaj (in nearly every Turkic language the word as a related meaning with thiefs, sword, ''long fingers''->thiefs, doll-player etc.), Kharoti from Mongol Karait, Abdali, meaning ''belonging to'' or ''men of'' (Turkic) etc. why they use asiatic words like zai, taken from Mongol xxey and turkic soy, why they use khel from mongol aqal and turkish oglu, ogul...why are their key words non-Iranic like mother, father, state or strongly influenced by non-Iranic elements? Why don´t they have Iranic ''Karte'' but instead filthy Mongol voluswali, why they are poud beeing ''open'' KHANS...the gay masters of Gays? Why do they claim alot to have been their forefathers...and everyone have a different story about their filthy bastardic forefathers and background? What the hell make them Iranic? Ossetians are also Iranic ....and they were once also wild and barbarian with the only difference that everything on them, even their language and customs and myths were Iranic. But unlike Pashtuns, the modern Ossetes did not raped eachother or the women of those tribes or used violence on them that later became part of their Ossetic ''Eyron'' nation.

What the hell is this filthy language that is dying out, god thanks, that we call it as ''Iranic''. Please, deliver only 10 words in only one sentence that belonged always to Pashtu and represent pure Pashtu words. Don´t be arrogant and naiv. More than at least 50% of Pashtu is directly adoptet 1:1 from beautiful Iranic Persian, a large part (ca.12-15%) of other adoptions became Pashtunized (shab from new Persian taken into filthy Pashtu and pashtunized to shpa or sepas from sepasai to ''spa''). A huge part is adoptet 1:1 from Arabic which has the same influence on this bastardic language, and another part became adoptet and Pashtunized. Why Pashtu have so much Punjabi, Sinhdi, Brahui and selected dravidian influences? Which words except this kheshtaki ''Singahey'' (''From which hole do you come from''!!!) is Pashtu? Lesser than 10% of Pashtu is based on a traditional Pashtu and even there are words that can´t be formed back to an Iranic, Turkic, Arabuic, Jewish, Dravidan, Brahui, Baluchi, Monkeyzaban, sagzaban etc. version. That´s not a random. Pashtuns are a bunch of homos with different ethnical origine, from north african copts to jews, mongols, turks, indians to dravidians and sinhis and gypsies. A very filthy with a dirty blood confederation. That´s why they call eachother dogs, foreigners, slaves, that´s why they never are united and never was, even during the Taliban Pashtun imperalisms. Today, among Gulbiddin, Taliban, Haqqani and Taeba e Lashkar there is a tribal war as two western nations with atom bombs would fight eachother. The Ghalzai thiefs and mfkrs call the Abfali Mughalzais as non-Awghans and the Abfalli Mughalzais call Ghalzai Mughalzais as non-Oughans and both want to wipe out eachother. Both thiefs had stolen in the past eachothers positions, lands and monies and today they seek for revange....now for 1600 years!!! I have bought a new ethnographic book about the world´s races. The Awghan dogs are not mentioned as Iranians and Indo-Aryans. On the map you see a large part of Central Asia beeing Iranic, a large part of India Indo-Aryanic and between both the term Awghan is used. How comes? Just ask me for it and I will scan the page for you!!!
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Posted 06 November 2010 - 05:39 PM

Parsistani, what do you think about the Kurds ?
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Posted 06 November 2010 - 05:44 PM

View PostGul agha, on 04 November 2010 - 09:15 PM, said:

The Durranis and Ghilzais are racially Iranic. The Durranis are the ancient Hephthalites (Aptaalis-Abdaalis) who fled to India when they were attacked by the Sassanids. The Ghilzais are too Iranic and are descendants of many groups of the Ashvakas and Kambojas who adopted the south-eastern Saka (Pashto) language of the Hephthalites. They are not culturally Iranic because their Iranian ancestors (the nomadic Scythians) had no particular culture like the settled Iranians. This does not mean all of the Scythians are Pashtun and vice versa. Most of the Scythian population became sedentary in Central Asia and in Sistan and are known as Persian or Tajik today. There is a possibility that the Ghilzais are also the Pactyans that the Greeks mentioned.


Gul Agha,

Herodot's ''Pactians'' were, according to new studies nothing else as the Old-Persian word for border/frontier (pakhtai->the linguist relationship to border is not far). The region´s population that Herodot used to call as ''Pactians'' was known as Arachosia, modern Kandahar region and north-east Baluchistan. Kandahar was still called in the 11th century as al-''Arakh'' and it´s original population, the Arokha or Aurora that still live in Panjab after they fled from filthy barbarian bedouine Arabs to India. Herodot´s ''Pactyans'' was nothing than the Greec version of the Old-Persian word for border that Herodot believed falsefully beeing a designation for the people of the most eastern parts of Persia. According to historians, the real ''Paktians'' lived much deeper in the east and were speaking a dialect close to the Veda, called themself as ''Pakhta'' and ''Pakhat''. Compare both words with the Old-Persian one. No suprise, that Herodot had a wrong picture of the eastern ethnical composition. It would be nice if you would use some sources for your claim. Thank you. Ghalzais came as part of Khalajs that later also moved to Uzbekista and Turkistan and Pars province of Iran and India in the 9th century to Ghazni region from north and could establish themself under the Ghaznavids till the Ghurids turned the dirty Khalajs to slaves which also give the origine of the Turkish origine of Ghalzais with the ''Turkish Ghurid Prince Hussein'' and the Pashtana Bibi Mato who was raped by him on the Sulaiman Mountain at Takht-i Shahi.

Btw, the Sacae language belonged to an older dialect of northeastern Bactrian language and was used in Khotan, China, thus the name Khotan-Sakaes. They were farmers and semi-nomadic people with an their own non-Zoroastrian mitra-cult, an ancient pre-zoroastrian culture of Iranians and Indo-Aryans. What the hell make Pushtuns Sacae descandants??? The only descandants of Sacaes are today Wakhi Tajiks with some portions Sughnan Tajiks (ca. 600 000) and the Rajputs. Pashtu is neither an own Iranic language nor a northeastern language. When the term Bactrian was discovered and as an ''eastern Iranian language'' became known it also became synonym to Pashtu, both from modern view ''eastern Iranian languages'' and Pashtu the most important and most spoken of them, thus people tried to bring Bactrian and ''Pashtu'' to one branch. It was easy since other people spoke Persian, a western branch or turkic languages.
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Posted 06 November 2010 - 05:48 PM

View PostNader Shah, on 06 November 2010 - 05:39 PM, said:

Parsistani, what do you think about the Kurds ?


Kurds live in a region where Indo-Europeans and autochtones and semites came and settled there. They are a mix. For 5 years there was a new study about them made by some German experts. From modern and linguist view Kurds are Iranian speaking people, from ethnical view they are a mix of Indo-Europeans, Semits and autochton pre-Iranic population. Like Baluchs, Kurds are genetically close related with Arabs, specially Syrians, but also reflect a relation to Indo-Europeans such Italians, Greecs, Iranians.

I will look on my old database If I can find the pdf folders. If i find them, I will send it to you.
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