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The Tajik Tragedy Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   قزلباش Icon

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Posted 16 November 2010 - 08:13 AM

Dorood, I had a little spare time on my hands and so I decided to put some of my thoughts about the Samarqand-Bukhara question on paper

The Tajik people of Central Asia are, by definition, dehghan Persians and so when one thinks of the Tajik nation and the Tajik nation-state, towns and cities naturally come to mind.
It would therefore be reasonable to assume that any Tajik nation-state would contain the historic cities that reflect this inextricable facet of Tajik identity.

Tragically, this is not the case.

With casual strokes of their pens, ignorant and/or malignant Soviet cartographers mercilessly annexed the Tajik centers of Bukhara and Samarqand and created an abomination that they choose to label “Tajik SSR”.
Bukhara and Samarqand are still Persian cities but there can be no doubt as to what is currently happening, there can be denial of the fact that Samarqand and Bukhara are now the targets of a ruthless Uzbekification program that is being implemented at the behest of the half-tajik-turned-Uzbek-nationalist Islam Karimov
Day after day, Samarqand and Bukhara are being assaulted; they are being assaulted by the officials of the Uzbek ministry of culture, they are being assaulted by the censors of the Karimov government and they are being assaulted by waves of Uzbek migration from the countryside.
Our generation will be remembered as the generation which stood by and watched the Uzbekification of the greatest Persian cities in Central Asia.
That is, if we chose to stand by

I have thought long and hard about this issue and I have come to conclusion that there is really only one viable solution to the Samarqand-Bukhara Question; Military Action.

Now, before anyone calls me a Lur-e-jangara, I will explain why I have concluded that the military option is they only feasible solution.
The central concern is the fragility of the Persian population of Samarqand and Bukhara and the logistic hurdles that we face; the problem is that Samarqand and Bukhara represent small but populous concentrations and they are therefore extremely vulnerable.
They are vulnerable because relatively effortless population movements can completely change the demographics of these cities; we must understand that if the Karimov government or its successors ever feel threatened, they can easily and rapidly change the demographics of these cities and destroy the Tajik majority.
This vulnerability of Samarqand and Bukhara is the reason that we cannot utilize nonviolent movements and the reason that we must elect to use decisive military action.

The key to success in any attempt to annex territory in our modern UN-dominated world is to not appear to be the aggressor. In short, we would need to provoke the Uzbekistani government into attacking us.
This is fairly simple to do and it can be accomplished through shrewd use of Tajikistan’s stranglehold on the rivers that sustain Uzbekistan. The Zarafshan and the Amu Darya rivers which consistitute the lifeline of Uzbekistan both have their headwaters in Tajikistan and we can use this fact to our advantage. We can discreetly manipulate these water resources in order to provoke Uzbek military action.
Once the Uzbeks do “initiate” hostilities, the Tajiks must fall back in apparent disarray as the international community looks on in sympathy and witnesses the Uzbek “aggressor” brutalize its weaker neighbor.

Then, at the opportune moment, once we have garnered enough international sympathy for our "plight", there must a massive Iranian-Tajik*(refer to note) joint “counteroffensive” in the aftermath of an airlift of Iranian troops to Tajikistan. We must push deep and fast into Uzbekistan and we must occupy Samarqand and Tashkent (both of which are near the Tajik border) before declaring a “generous” unilateral cease-fire. In the subsequent peace negotiations we must continue to portray our actions as mere reactions to Uzbek aggression and we must negotiate a withdrawal of our troops from Tashkent in exchange for the establishment of Samarqand and Bukhara as enclaves of Tajikistan. In the case of Samarqand, we can perhaps even negotiate to gain the portion of the Zerafshan valley that lies between the Panjikent and Samarqand.
Our stated motivation for the acquisition of the enclaves must be the safeguarding of the local Tajik population and we must foster local Samarqandi and Bukhari organizations that make it appear that the motivation for the annexation is emanating from within the cities.

*note: This is, of course, the most problematic condition in the scenario and it is contingent on the establishment of a secular-nationalist government in Tehran; a prospect that is not too far-fetched in the near future given the prevailing political climate in Iran
هیچ وقت به خدا نگو یه مشکل بزرگ دارم
به مشکل بگو من یه خدای بزرگ دارم


Go tell the wolves that although the father has been killed,
The father's gun is with us still
Tell them that although all the men of the tribe have been killed,
There is a young boy in the cradle still

Bakhtiari Proverb
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#2 User is offline   Kakar Icon

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Posted 16 November 2010 - 09:19 PM

this is a very good post, because as a Pashtun, I always wondered why we were the biggest target of the wrath of Persian nationalists

Yes Pashtuns committed many crimes against Tajiks, but they pale in comparison to what Turkic-Mongoloid raiders did historically in pushing the Iranic population of central asia out, and of course, the loss of Samarqand and Bukhara

those 2 cities along with Balkh and Herat, are the heart of Tajiks.

I feel the same thinking of all those Pakistanis in Peshawar, our Pashtun city. But it pales in comparison to your loss.

a century ago the Bukhara and Khiva emirs discriminated against Farsi while Pashtuns spoke Farsi in Kabul and Peshawar.

Know your enemy
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#3 User is offline   قزلباش Icon

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Posted 16 November 2010 - 10:34 PM

View PostKakar, on 16 November 2010 - 04:19 PM, said:

this is a very good post, because as a Pashtun, I always wondered why we were the biggest target of the wrath of Persian nationalists


Well, pashtuns are not the biggest target of Persian nationalists; in a wider sense at least
You are the biggest target of Persian nationalists from Afghanistan

Im iranian and largely detached from these issues in my daily life and so i have an easier time being objective

The Afghan Tajiks are hesitant to pursue this matter because it could jeopardize their strategic alliance with the Uzbeks in northern Afghanistan.
Although self-determination for the Tajiks of Uzbekistan should not be a contentious issue for Afghan Uzbeks, I can nevertheless understand why this topic is uncomfortable for Afghan Tajiks
The Tajiks of Tajikistan and Uzbekistan, on the other hand, dont have much of a voice in cyberspace.

All of these factors contribute to creating the illusion that pashtuns are the biggest targets of persian nationalists

In fact, the biggest targets of Persian nationalists in Iran are the mullahs and, frankly, most Iranians dont even know what a pashtun is.

View PostKakar, on 16 November 2010 - 04:19 PM, said:

they pale in comparison to what Turkic-Mongoloid raiders did historically in pushing the Iranic population of central asia out, and of course, the loss of Samarqand and Bukhara


No one can or will forget what the mongols did and no one can or will forget what the Uzbek-Turkmen raiders did in Khorasan

Shah Ismail sent several Qizilbash tribes from western Iran to deal with them; the Qajars were sent to Mazandaran and Golestan to deal with Turkmen raids while the Afshars, the Qaracholru Kurds, and the Feyli Lurs were sent to Khorasan to deal with Uzbek raids
Its amazing how quickly the raids of those "brave" horsemen stopped after the arrival of a few thousand Qizilbash.

What happened in central asia between the 5th century and the 18th century is the biggest genocide in human history.
Iranian languages were once spoken in Kazakhstan and northwestern China.
Murder, rape and pillage was the modus operandi of the invaders from east asia.

View PostKakar, on 16 November 2010 - 04:19 PM, said:

a century ago the Bukhara and Khiva emirs discriminated against Farsi while Pashtuns spoke Farsi in Kabul and Peshawar.


There is no denying the fact that the situation of the afghan persians is infinitely better than the situation of uzbek persians.
It is undeniable.
هیچ وقت به خدا نگو یه مشکل بزرگ دارم
به مشکل بگو من یه خدای بزرگ دارم


Go tell the wolves that although the father has been killed,
The father's gun is with us still
Tell them that although all the men of the tribe have been killed,
There is a young boy in the cradle still

Bakhtiari Proverb
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#4 User is offline   Kakar Icon

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Posted 16 November 2010 - 11:52 PM

View Postقزلباش, on 16 November 2010 - 10:34 PM, said:

Well, pashtuns are not the biggest target of Persian nationalists; in a wider sense at least
You are the biggest target of Persian nationalists from Afghanistan

Im iranian and largely detached from these issues in my daily life and so i have an easier time being objective

The Afghan Tajiks are hesitant to pursue this matter because it could jeopardize their strategic alliance with the Uzbeks in northern Afghanistan.
Although self-determination for the Tajiks of Uzbekistan should not be a contentious issue for Afghan Uzbeks, I can nevertheless understand why this topic is uncomfortable for Afghan Tajiks
The Tajiks of Tajikistan and Uzbekistan, on the other hand, dont have much of a voice in cyberspace.

All of these factors contribute to creating the illusion that pashtuns are the biggest targets of persian nationalists

In fact, the biggest targets of Persian nationalists in Iran are the mullahs and, frankly, most Iranians dont even know what a pashtun is.



No one can or will forget what the mongols did and no one can or will forget what the Uzbek-Turkmen raiders did in Khorasan

Shah Ismail sent several Qizilbash tribes from western Iran to deal with them; the Qajars were sent to Mazandaran and Golestan to deal with Turkmen raids while the Afshars, the Qaracholru Kurds, and the Feyli Lurs were sent to Khorasan to deal with Uzbek raids
Its amazing how quickly the raids of those "brave" horsemen stopped after the arrival of a few thousand Qizilbash.

What happened in central asia between the 5th century and the 18th century is the biggest genocide in human history.
Iranian languages were once spoken in Kazakhstan and northwestern China.
Murder, rape and pillage was the modus operandi of the invaders from east asia.




There is no denying the fact that the situation of the afghan persians is infinitely better than the situation of uzbek persians.
It is undeniable.



this is the first time Ive seen a Persian address this critical issue. I have great respect for you. I just finished reading a book Chenghiz Khan, and Ive always been fascinated with the variouS Turkic tribes and migrations generally speaking.

the very fact that Tajiks seem to love Uzbeks in Afghanistan but express venom for Pashtuns boggles my mind! Like, dude, Uzbeks are not even native to northern Afghanistan like Tajiks are....at least Pashtuns claim to a significant degree, ancestry from these Iranic tribes that were pushed south from central Asia.

Hence, why no Pashtun has ever expressed any opposition or concern to the name of Aryana
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#5 User is offline   Nader Shah Icon

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Posted 17 November 2010 - 12:15 AM

Interesting ... although I share your sympathies for all oppressed people, let me add some counterpoints.

Why stop at Samarkand and Bukhara ? Why not retake Marv, and the whole of Turkmenistan as well (not to mention Tajik parts of Afghanistan) ? After all, Samarkand and Bukhara are not the only places where genocide took place. Also, don't you think Turkey would take advantage of the situation and jump into Iranian Azarbaijan ? After all, they claim that the 'Turks' are oppressed in Iran, regardless of whether they were turkified or not. And in the end everyone will end up suffering more ... And any encouragement from nationalist Pashtuns your idea gets is suspicious, I am sure those who have bad intentions towards Iran and Tajiks would love nothing more than Iran jumping into a military adventure somewhere outside Afghanistan, and get in deep trouble so that they can better oppress their minorities in Afghanistan.

As for secular-nationalists taking control of Iran, don't hold your breath. Although there is a trend, it is still mostly among some young educated people, especially in Tehran, but I doubt that more than 15% of the population is secularist-nationalist. It will frankly take a few decades, if it ever happened, one generation at the very least. Religion still has a huge stronghold, unfortunately most Iranians are still automatons whose programming software was designed in its core in Arabia 1400 years ago and later in Mesopotamia with Shiism. It is saddening and I do not enjoy saying this but I debated many people who thought the current system will collapse within months, and nothing happened, I argued exactly as I do now ... and I happened to spend almost a year in Iran recently. Many people who supported this guy Mousavi are simply religious people, the same type of people who supported Khomeini.




View Postقزلباش, on 16 November 2010 - 08:13 AM, said:

Dorood, I had a little spare time on my hands and so I decided to put some of my thoughts about the Samarqand-Bukhara question on paper

The Tajik people of Central Asia are, by definition, dehghan Persians and so when one thinks of the Tajik nation and the Tajik nation-state, towns and cities naturally come to mind.
It would therefore be reasonable to assume that any Tajik nation-state would contain the historic cities that reflect this inextricable facet of Tajik identity.

Tragically, this is not the case.

With casual strokes of their pens, ignorant and/or malignant Soviet cartographers mercilessly annexed the Tajik centers of Bukhara and Samarqand and created an abomination that they choose to label “Tajik SSR”.
Bukhara and Samarqand are still Persian cities but there can be no doubt as to what is currently happening, there can be denial of the fact that Samarqand and Bukhara are now the targets of a ruthless Uzbekification program that is being implemented at the behest of the half-tajik-turned-Uzbek-nationalist Islam Karimov
Day after day, Samarqand and Bukhara are being assaulted; they are being assaulted by the officials of the Uzbek ministry of culture, they are being assaulted by the censors of the Karimov government and they are being assaulted by waves of Uzbek migration from the countryside.
Our generation will be remembered as the generation which stood by and watched the Uzbekification of the greatest Persian cities in Central Asia.
That is, if we chose to stand by

I have thought long and hard about this issue and I have come to conclusion that there is really only one viable solution to the Samarqand-Bukhara Question; Military Action.

Now, before anyone calls me a Lur-e-jangara, I will explain why I have concluded that the military option is they only feasible solution.
The central concern is the fragility of the Persian population of Samarqand and Bukhara and the logistic hurdles that we face; the problem is that Samarqand and Bukhara represent small but populous concentrations and they are therefore extremely vulnerable.
They are vulnerable because relatively effortless population movements can completely change the demographics of these cities; we must understand that if the Karimov government or its successors ever feel threatened, they can easily and rapidly change the demographics of these cities and destroy the Tajik majority.
This vulnerability of Samarqand and Bukhara is the reason that we cannot utilize nonviolent movements and the reason that we must elect to use decisive military action.

The key to success in any attempt to annex territory in our modern UN-dominated world is to not appear to be the aggressor. In short, we would need to provoke the Uzbekistani government into attacking us.
This is fairly simple to do and it can be accomplished through shrewd use of Tajikistan’s stranglehold on the rivers that sustain Uzbekistan. The Zarafshan and the Amu Darya rivers which consistitute the lifeline of Uzbekistan both have their headwaters in Tajikistan and we can use this fact to our advantage. We can discreetly manipulate these water resources in order to provoke Uzbek military action.
Once the Uzbeks do “initiate” hostilities, the Tajiks must fall back in apparent disarray as the international community looks on in sympathy and witnesses the Uzbek “aggressor” brutalize its weaker neighbor.

Then, at the opportune moment, once we have garnered enough international sympathy for our "plight", there must a massive Iranian-Tajik*(refer to note) joint “counteroffensive” in the aftermath of an airlift of Iranian troops to Tajikistan. We must push deep and fast into Uzbekistan and we must occupy Samarqand and Tashkent (both of which are near the Tajik border) before declaring a “generous” unilateral cease-fire. In the subsequent peace negotiations we must continue to portray our actions as mere reactions to Uzbek aggression and we must negotiate a withdrawal of our troops from Tashkent in exchange for the establishment of Samarqand and Bukhara as enclaves of Tajikistan. In the case of Samarqand, we can perhaps even negotiate to gain the portion of the Zerafshan valley that lies between the Panjikent and Samarqand.
Our stated motivation for the acquisition of the enclaves must be the safeguarding of the local Tajik population and we must foster local Samarqandi and Bukhari organizations that make it appear that the motivation for the annexation is emanating from within the cities.

*note: This is, of course, the most problematic condition in the scenario and it is contingent on the establishment of a secular-nationalist government in Tehran; a prospect that is not too far-fetched in the near future given the prevailing political climate in Iran

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Posted 17 November 2010 - 12:43 AM

View PostKakar, on 16 November 2010 - 11:52 PM, said:

this is the first time Ive seen a Persian address this critical issue. I have great respect for you. I just finished reading a book Chenghiz Khan, and Ive always been fascinated with the variouS Turkic tribes and migrations generally speaking.

the very fact that Tajiks seem to love Uzbeks in Afghanistan but express venom for Pashtuns boggles my mind! Like, dude, Uzbeks are not even native to northern Afghanistan like Tajiks are....at least Pashtuns claim to a significant degree, ancestry from these Iranic tribes that were pushed south from central Asia.

Hence, why no Pashtun has ever expressed any opposition or concern to the name of Aryana


This is not true. In northern Afghanistan we have more problems with the Uzbeks than with the Pashtuns. Until a year ago the Pashtuns in Balkh were allied with the Tajik nationalists under the leadership of Ostad Atta and both groups successfully removed uzbeks from Balkh but because of the anti Tajik elements in the Afghan Millat and Hezb Islami the Pashtuns in those regions turned against the Tajiks and people like Juma Khan Hamdard, Hanif Atmar, and Faroq Wardak supported this. You can't blame everything on us.
Ba Naam e Khudahvand e Jan o Kherad, Kazeen Bartar Andisha Bar Nagzarad

به نام خداوند جان و خرد، کزین برتر اندیشه برنگذرد
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Posted 17 November 2010 - 12:44 AM

View Postقزلباش, on 16 November 2010 - 10:34 PM, said:

Well, pashtuns are not the biggest target of Persian nationalists; in a wider sense at least
You are the biggest target of Persian nationalists from Afghanistan

Im iranian and largely detached from these issues in my daily life and so i have an easier time being objective

The Afghan Tajiks are hesitant to pursue this matter because it could jeopardize their strategic alliance with the Uzbeks in northern Afghanistan.
Although self-determination for the Tajiks of Uzbekistan should not be a contentious issue for Afghan Uzbeks, I can nevertheless understand why this topic is uncomfortable for Afghan Tajiks
The Tajiks of Tajikistan and Uzbekistan, on the other hand, dont have much of a voice in cyberspace.

All of these factors contribute to creating the illusion that pashtuns are the biggest targets of persian nationalists

In fact, the biggest targets of Persian nationalists in Iran are the mullahs and, frankly, most Iranians dont even know what a pashtun is.



No one can or will forget what the mongols did and no one can or will forget what the Uzbek-Turkmen raiders did in Khorasan

Shah Ismail sent several Qizilbash tribes from western Iran to deal with them; the Qajars were sent to Mazandaran and Golestan to deal with Turkmen raids while the Afshars, the Qaracholru Kurds, and the Feyli Lurs were sent to Khorasan to deal with Uzbek raids
Its amazing how quickly the raids of those "brave" horsemen stopped after the arrival of a few thousand Qizilbash.

What happened in central asia between the 5th century and the 18th century is the biggest genocide in human history.
Iranian languages were once spoken in Kazakhstan and northwestern China.
Murder, rape and pillage was the modus operandi of the invaders from east asia.



There is no denying the fact that the situation of the afghan persians is infinitely better than the situation of uzbek persians.
It is undeniable.


can you give me more information about the Qaracholru kurds because I previously thought they were Barlas.
Ba Naam e Khudahvand e Jan o Kherad, Kazeen Bartar Andisha Bar Nagzarad

به نام خداوند جان و خرد، کزین برتر اندیشه برنگذرد
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Posted 17 November 2010 - 12:47 AM

View PostKakar, on 16 November 2010 - 09:19 PM, said:

this is a very good post, because as a Pashtun, I always wondered why we were the biggest target of the wrath of Persian nationalists

Yes Pashtuns committed many crimes against Tajiks, but they pale in comparison to what Turkic-Mongoloid raiders did historically in pushing the Iranic population of central asia out, and of course, the loss of Samarqand and Bukhara

those 2 cities along with Balkh and Herat, are the heart of Tajiks.

I feel the same thinking of all those Pakistanis in Peshawar, our Pashtun city. But it pales in comparison to your loss.

a century ago the Bukhara and Khiva emirs discriminated against Farsi while Pashtuns spoke Farsi in Kabul and Peshawar.

Know your enemy


Tajiks who know their history will never deny this.
Ba Naam e Khudahvand e Jan o Kherad, Kazeen Bartar Andisha Bar Nagzarad

به نام خداوند جان و خرد، کزین برتر اندیشه برنگذرد
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Posted 17 November 2010 - 12:51 AM

the option of a military solution was first proposed by Shoraay-nezaar (Ahmad Shah Massoud's party). Because of this Uzbekistan with Pakistan and Iran declared war on Ahmad Shah Massoud in the 90s with the help of their proxies in Afghanistan (Shuraay Hamaahangi between Hezb Wahdat, Junbish Dostum, and Hezb Islami).For example, Ismail Khan in the late 80s gave a speech that his goal is not to only liberate Herat but to raise our flags in Samarkand and Bukhara.
Ba Naam e Khudahvand e Jan o Kherad, Kazeen Bartar Andisha Bar Nagzarad

به نام خداوند جان و خرد، کزین برتر اندیشه برنگذرد
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Posted 17 November 2010 - 01:12 AM

Never heard of this before, the military solution - I assume, intervention by Iran, being proposed before in Afghanistan. I must say though that the only hope the Tajiks may have for liberation is military intervention by Iran, because they are not well-organized, nor are they war-like crazies like some Pashtuns. And in terms of military hardware, they are not well provided for by anyone.

Personally, I am against violence, wars, and military solutions. It goes against my priniciples. At the same time, the enemies of peaceful people such as Tajiks show no hesitation in using violence and force against them. What is to be done ? It is a difficult situation, I think the Tajiks need to take matters into their own hands, at least as a first step, and a defensive step. They need to be armed to the teeth, and well trained, so that if anyone attempts to attack them, they can readily defend themselves. Second, Iran cannot intervene anywhere without being blamed and condemned even by the local people. So, as Lor-Pars pointed out, there has to be a very strong desire on the part of the oppressed Tajik people, to ask for help, and there has to be an international legal case as well.

In my past experience on this forum, I perceived a lot of hostility from Tajiks towards Iran. However, it seems that this time around things have changed.

As for Pashtuns, I really wish that they could find common ground with Tajiks. I know this seems naive, but it is good that people such as you, Gul Agha, are making an attempt to reach out. I personally would prefer to see a peaceful and federalist Afghanistan where Tajiks, Pashtuns and all others can leave in peace, yet all enjoy equal rights. I have no desire to annex territory to Iran, we have a large enough country. Those who wish to join, should decide on their own - there should be no coercion. I believe many Pashtoons are in fact Iranic, and we need to try to bring them to our side ... even if it seems hopeless at first. Making enemies of everyone, especially those with whom we share cultural traits, is not a wise move. Keep up the good work, Gul Agha.


View PostGul agha, on 17 November 2010 - 12:51 AM, said:

the option of a military solution was first proposed by Shoraay-nezaar (Ahmad Shah Massoud's party). Because of this Uzbekistan with Pakistan and Iran declared war on Ahmad Shah Massoud in the 90s with the help of their proxies in Afghanistan (Shuraay Hamaahangi between Hezb Wahdat, Junbish Dostum, and Hezb Islami).For example, Ismail Khan in the late 80s gave a speech that his goal is not to only liberate Herat but to raise our flags in Samarkand and Bukhara.

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Posted 17 November 2010 - 02:47 AM

View PostGul agha, on 16 November 2010 - 07:44 PM, said:

can you give me more information about the Qaracholru kurds because I previously thought they were Barlas.


There is absolutely no connection between the Barlas (which are a Mongolic group) and the Qarachorlu Kurds (which are a Kumanji kurdish group and are, by far, the largest kurdish group among the Qizilbash)

The Qarachorlu were sent by Abbas I to Khorasan in order to serve as a bulwark against Uzbek raids and they continue to live in the area and continue to speak Kumanji kurdis.

They served with distinction during the campaigns of Nader Shah
During the battle of Karnal, for example, Nader sent 1,000 Qajar, 1,000 Qarachorlu Kurds and 1,000 Bakhtiari Lurs forward as the vanguard of the army.
These 3,000 Qizilbash ran into 50,000 Mughals under Sadat Khan.
Not only did they manage to defeat the Mughals but they even captured Sadat Khan and brought him before Nader.
Nader was so impressed than he gave them each double their share of the booty when Dehli was captured.
هیچ وقت به خدا نگو یه مشکل بزرگ دارم
به مشکل بگو من یه خدای بزرگ دارم


Go tell the wolves that although the father has been killed,
The father's gun is with us still
Tell them that although all the men of the tribe have been killed,
There is a young boy in the cradle still

Bakhtiari Proverb
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Posted 17 November 2010 - 03:05 AM

View PostNader Shah, on 16 November 2010 - 07:15 PM, said:

Why stop at Samarkand and Bukhara ? Why not retake Marv, and the whole of Turkmenistan as well


Marv is ours

Marv was a persian Qajar Qizilbash city until the turkmen barbarians massacred the population in the 18th century
Merv was one of the two centers of the Qajar tribe until the barbarians of the Tekke turkmen tribe attacked it

The Qajars at Marv had been moved to the city by Shah Abbas from Armenia
At the time of the massacre, the city was dominated by persian Qizilbash.
They Tekkes destroyed the Murghab dam and killed the Qajar governor Bayram Ali Khan Qajar
http://books.google....%20Merv&f=false

Qizilbash never forget or forgive
هیچ وقت به خدا نگو یه مشکل بزرگ دارم
به مشکل بگو من یه خدای بزرگ دارم


Go tell the wolves that although the father has been killed,
The father's gun is with us still
Tell them that although all the men of the tribe have been killed,
There is a young boy in the cradle still

Bakhtiari Proverb
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Posted 17 November 2010 - 03:10 AM

View PostKakar, on 16 November 2010 - 06:52 PM, said:

this is the first time Ive seen a Persian address this critical issue. I have great respect for you. I just finished reading a book Chenghiz Khan, and Ive always been fascinated with the variouS Turkic tribes and migrations generally speaking.

the very fact that Tajiks seem to love Uzbeks in Afghanistan but express venom for Pashtuns boggles my mind! Like, dude, Uzbeks are not even native to northern Afghanistan like Tajiks are....at least Pashtuns claim to a significant degree, ancestry from these Iranic tribes that were pushed south from central Asia.

Hence, why no Pashtun has ever expressed any opposition or concern to the name of Aryana


I think it is important to note that Uzbeks are, genetically, not exclusively or even mostly Turkic
In fact, they cluster somewhere between Mongoloid and Iranic populations.
They are not complete aliens to central asia

The Sarts, the Uzbeks of the Ferghana valley and the Uzbeks of the northern afghanistan retain more Iranic genetic makeup that the tribal Uzbeks
هیچ وقت به خدا نگو یه مشکل بزرگ دارم
به مشکل بگو من یه خدای بزرگ دارم


Go tell the wolves that although the father has been killed,
The father's gun is with us still
Tell them that although all the men of the tribe have been killed,
There is a young boy in the cradle still

Bakhtiari Proverb
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Posted 17 November 2010 - 04:24 AM

Nader Shah aziz the Tajiks in Afghanistan have successfully defended themselves without anyone's aid or help. The Tajiks were the most organized military force from the 1980s to the early 2000s under the command of Ahmad Shah Massoud. When Tajiks get provoked they are more war-like than any other ethnic group in Afghanistan. For example, the fieriest resistance against the British, Russians and the Taliban were carried out by the Tajiks in Kohistan, Panjshir, Takhar and many other areas.

Here is a video posted by an anti-Massoud Hazara where Massoud with the Tajik Shi'ite leaders are talking about Iran, Uzbekistan and Pakistan's involvement in the 1990s and their support for the Shuraah-hamaahangi between the Pashtuns, Hazaras and Uzbeks.

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=O1YxSXiTMGU

View PostNader Shah, on 17 November 2010 - 01:12 AM, said:

Never heard of this before, the military solution - I assume, intervention by Iran, being proposed before in Afghanistan. I must say though that the only hope the Tajiks may have for liberation is military intervention by Iran, because they are not well-organized, nor are they war-like crazies like some Pashtuns. And in terms of military hardware, they are not well provided for by anyone.

Personally, I am against violence, wars, and military solutions. It goes against my priniciples. At the same time, the enemies of peaceful people such as Tajiks show no hesitation in using violence and force against them. What is to be done ? It is a difficult situation, I think the Tajiks need to take matters into their own hands, at least as a first step, and a defensive step. They need to be armed to the teeth, and well trained, so that if anyone attempts to attack them, they can readily defend themselves. Second, Iran cannot intervene anywhere without being blamed and condemned even by the local people. So, as Lor-Pars pointed out, there has to be a very strong desire on the part of the oppressed Tajik people, to ask for help, and there has to be an international legal case as well.

In my past experience on this forum, I perceived a lot of hostility from Tajiks towards Iran. However, it seems that this time around things have changed.

As for Pashtuns, I really wish that they could find common ground with Tajiks. I know this seems naive, but it is good that people such as you, Gul Agha, are making an attempt to reach out. I personally would prefer to see a peaceful and federalist Afghanistan where Tajiks, Pashtuns and all others can leave in peace, yet all enjoy equal rights. I have no desire to annex territory to Iran, we have a large enough country. Those who wish to join, should decide on their own - there should be no coercion. I believe many Pashtoons are in fact Iranic, and we need to try to bring them to our side ... even if it seems hopeless at first. Making enemies of everyone, especially those with whom we share cultural traits, is not a wise move. Keep up the good work, Gul Agha.

Ba Naam e Khudahvand e Jan o Kherad, Kazeen Bartar Andisha Bar Nagzarad

به نام خداوند جان و خرد، کزین برتر اندیشه برنگذرد
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Posted 17 November 2010 - 04:26 AM

We have a Qizilbash group in Chendawol, Kabul by the name Kucharlu (maybe a mispronunciation of Qarachorlu). They came to Kabul under the leadership of Haji Yusuf and they were mostly sunni and they built the only sunni mosque in Chendawol (Masjed Haji Yusuf Beg).

View Postقزلباش, on 17 November 2010 - 02:47 AM, said:

There is absolutely no connection between the Barlas (which are a Mongolic group) and the Qarachorlu Kurds (which are a Kumanji kurdish group and are, by far, the largest kurdish group among the Qizilbash)

The Qarachorlu were sent by Abbas I to Khorasan in order to serve as a bulwark against Uzbek raids and they continue to live in the area and continue to speak Kumanji kurdis.

They served with distinction during the campaigns of Nader Shah
During the battle of Karnal, for example, Nader sent 1,000 Qajar, 1,000 Qarachorlu Kurds and 1,000 Bakhtiari Lurs forward as the vanguard of the army.
These 3,000 Qizilbash ran into 50,000 Mughals under Sadat Khan.
Not only did they manage to defeat the Mughals but they even captured Sadat Khan and brought him before Nader.
Nader was so impressed than he gave them each double their share of the booty when Dehli was captured.

Ba Naam e Khudahvand e Jan o Kherad, Kazeen Bartar Andisha Bar Nagzarad

به نام خداوند جان و خرد، کزین برتر اندیشه برنگذرد
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Posted 17 November 2010 - 04:59 AM

View PostGul agha, on 16 November 2010 - 11:26 PM, said:

We have a Qizilbash group in Chendawol, Kabul by the name Kucharlu (maybe a mispronunciation of Qarachorlu). They came to Kabul under the leadership of Haji Yusuf and they were mostly sunni and they built the only sunni mosque in Chendawol (Masjed Haji Yusuf Beg).


haha, that certainly does appear to be them

They are indeed mostly sunni
we tried to convert them many many times but they are stubborn as hell :D
only about 30-40% ever converted
The Qarachorlu are famous as the "sunni Qizilbash" or the "omari Qizilbash" (the latter term is, for obvious reasons, derogatory)

we get along with them surprisingly well
My father's favorite employee in Iran is a Qarachorlu Kurd from the Esferayen area
I think it has to do with the fact that they are, like most other kurds, very secular.
هیچ وقت به خدا نگو یه مشکل بزرگ دارم
به مشکل بگو من یه خدای بزرگ دارم


Go tell the wolves that although the father has been killed,
The father's gun is with us still
Tell them that although all the men of the tribe have been killed,
There is a young boy in the cradle still

Bakhtiari Proverb
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Posted 17 November 2010 - 05:11 AM

View Postقزلباش, on 17 November 2010 - 04:59 AM, said:

haha, that certainly does appear to be them

They are indeed mostly sunni
we tried to convert them many many times but they are stubborn as hell :D
only about 30-40% ever converted
The Qarachorlu are famous as the "sunni Qizilbash" or the "omari Qizilbash" (the latter term is, for obvious reasons, derogatory)

we get along with them surprisingly well
My father's favorite employee in Iran is a Qarachorlu Kurd from the Esferayen area
I think it has to do with the fact that they are, like most other kurds, very secular.


My Grandfather's mother was half Qarachorlu and they became Shi'ite in Kabul 130 years ago. They mostly worked in the military. We always thought Qucharlu might have evolved from Qajarlu (Qajari).
Ba Naam e Khudahvand e Jan o Kherad, Kazeen Bartar Andisha Bar Nagzarad

به نام خداوند جان و خرد، کزین برتر اندیشه برنگذرد
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Posted 17 November 2010 - 05:21 AM

View PostGul agha, on 17 November 2010 - 12:11 AM, said:

My Grandfather's mother was half Qarachorlu and they became Shi'ite in Kabul 130 years ago. They mostly worked in the military. We always thought Qucharlu might have evolved from Qajarlu (Qajari).


No brother, they are Kurds
They are Khorasani Kurds and i believe their ancestral lands are in modern-day Kermanshah province

They have a reputation for being excellent cavalrymen so i am not surprised that your grandfather's family was in the army
هیچ وقت به خدا نگو یه مشکل بزرگ دارم
به مشکل بگو من یه خدای بزرگ دارم


Go tell the wolves that although the father has been killed,
The father's gun is with us still
Tell them that although all the men of the tribe have been killed,
There is a young boy in the cradle still

Bakhtiari Proverb
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Posted 17 November 2010 - 05:24 AM

They are mentioned briefly in this book

http://books.google....20kabul&f=false
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Posted 17 November 2010 - 05:26 AM

Lur aziz what do you know about the Jawansher clan.
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