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Panjabis and Sindhis push Pashtuns out of Peshawar Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   Parsistani Icon

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 09:41 AM

Dear friends and brothers and sisters,

yesterday I rememberd on an article I was reading for some times ago that was about the growing of the population in the Indian sub-continent. The article was also using some demographes and showed how fast the population in Pakistan and India grow in the last 50 years. While India´s population was counted in the early 40th of the lsat century at 500mio people today the country has more than 1.3billion people. Today, the social situations changed, the numbers of wealthy people and a health care increased tough India and Pakistan are still poor countries. With such positive points the number of births increased, too. And for Pakistan and specially for Pashtuns seems that in lesser than 50 years their Panjabi (steph-)fathers will step much more deeper and retake Peshawar back from Pashtuns and penetrate even to Pakhtunistan and Baluchistan. No matter what Pashtuns will think now. Sooner or later they all will become Panjabis, Indian, Sindhis, pure Jats (gypsies) and part of a modern ''Harappa civilisation'' that will go down. The only chance for Pashtuns is to create their own Pashtunistan between Panjab, Afghanistan and Baluchistan otherwise there won´t survive something beeing Pashtunic.
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#2 User is offline   Sohrab Icon

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 01:51 PM

do we have a breakdown of birth rate among pakistani ethnicities and the country as a whole? because that is the main thing to see who will dominate in the future.
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#3 User is offline   asif1986 Icon

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 03:00 PM

yes there is some information on this

Ethnic fertility differentials in Pakistan
http://findarticles....5/ai_n28682513/
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Posted 05 December 2010 - 07:08 PM

Can you summarize ? The article is very long ... and I did not see a map. A picture=1000 words. Thanks

View Postasif1986, on 05 December 2010 - 03:00 PM, said:

yes there is some information on this

Ethnic fertility differentials in Pakistan
http://findarticles....5/ai_n28682513/

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#5 User is offline   Sohrab Icon

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 07:42 PM

thansk asif, but it was too long to read.
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Posted 06 December 2010 - 01:24 PM

View PostSohrab, on 05 December 2010 - 01:51 PM, said:

do we have a breakdown of birth rate among pakistani ethnicities and the country as a whole? because that is the main thing to see who will dominate in the future.


The Punjabis and Sindhis are by numbers 1O times more than Pashtuns are. Even with these two groups would bear only 3 child per family and Pashtuns 1O children (due the uneducation of Pashtuns) the non-Pakhtuns will still make the dominant group and will have the highest birth. Beside that, the situation of helath care in eastern Pakistan is much better and higher than in the dirty Pakhtunwa which became the main reason why most of the birth among Pashtuns break up and their children die. Interesting is that even Baluchs and Brahuis are today significant and push on Pashtuns from south and they have the most highest birth rates in Pakistan. Let´s see how Pakhtuns and Swati people will deal with such facts. Only Kashmiris seems beeing save, currently.
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Posted 08 December 2010 - 05:57 PM

View PostNader Shah, on 05 December 2010 - 07:08 PM, said:

Can you summarize ? The article is very long ... and I did not see a map. A picture=1000 words. Thanks

The study revealed that balochi/brohi speaking women have the highest fertility and more childrens.They are followed by sindhi,pashto and seraiki speaking women.The punjabis have the lowest fertility with the urdu speaking linguistic community almost matching them.The punjabis are dominant nationalality in pakistan and their dominance in next few decades is going to be curtailed because of the higher growth rate amongst other ethnic groups.The pashtuns dont have to worry about demographic disaster,they have also heavily migrated to others areas of pakistan like karachi which is considered to be the largest pakhtun city.

Whats the situation in afghanistan,whats the growth rate of different communities.
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Posted 08 December 2010 - 09:02 PM

View Postasif1986, on 08 December 2010 - 05:57 PM, said:

The study revealed that balochi/brohi speaking women have the highest fertility and more childrens.They are followed by sindhi,pashto and seraiki speaking women.The punjabis have the lowest fertility with the urdu speaking linguistic community almost matching them.The punjabis are dominant nationalality in pakistan and their dominance in next few decades is going to be curtailed because of the higher growth rate amongst other ethnic groups.The pashtuns dont have to worry about demographic disaster,they have also heavily migrated to others areas of pakistan like karachi which is considered to be the largest pakhtun city.

Whats the situation in afghanistan,whats the growth rate of different communities.


Dear Asif, do you believe such an article written at the end of the 80s or newer one? The world changed the last 30 years. Wake up boy. I am still looking for the article.
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#9 User is offline   قزلباش Icon

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Posted 08 December 2010 - 09:49 PM

View PostParsistani, on 08 December 2010 - 04:02 PM, said:

Dear Asif, do you believe such an article written at the end of the 80s or newer one? The world changed the last 30 years. Wake up boy. I am still looking for the article.


I readily believe the statistics that asif posted.
In fact, i could have guessed the relative birth rates based on the socioeconomic standing of the various ethnic groups in Pakistan.

For various reasons, socieconomically dominant and highly urbanized ethnic groups tend to have lower birth rates than poorer, rural ethnic groups.

My own family presents an example of this.
The highly-educated and wealthy urban qizilbash on my father's side have 1-2 kids per family unit
The less-educated and less-wealthy ex-nomadic Lur Qizilbash on my mother's side average 3-4 kids per family unit

The Persian question in Afghanistan must also address demographic considerations because i would be willing to bet that Tajiks have lower birth rates than the other groups in the country.
هیچ وقت به خدا نگو یه مشکل بزرگ دارم
به مشکل بگو من یه خدای بزرگ دارم


Go tell the wolves that although the father has been killed,
The father's gun is with us still
Tell them that although all the men of the tribe have been killed,
There is a young boy in the cradle still

Bakhtiari Proverb
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Posted 09 December 2010 - 07:23 AM

View Postقزلباش, on 08 December 2010 - 09:49 PM, said:

I readily believe the statistics that asif posted.
In fact, i could have guessed the relative birth rates based on the socioeconomic standing of the various ethnic groups in Pakistan.

For various reasons, socieconomically dominant and highly urbanized ethnic groups tend to have lower birth rates than poorer, rural ethnic groups.

My own family presents an example of this.
The highly-educated and wealthy urban qizilbash on my father's side have 1-2 kids per family unit
The less-educated and less-wealthy ex-nomadic Lur Qizilbash on my mother's side average 3-4 kids per family unit

The Persian question in Afghanistan must also address demographic considerations because i would be willing to bet that Tajiks have lower birth rates than the other groups in the country.


You are wrong. When I read a modern statistic, a very new one which was a work of different non-government groups and shared in famous newspapers and Magazins like Spiegel and Focus than I believe the new results. F.ex. there are 2 mio Pashtun refugees in Pakistan and every family have not more than 4 children while they have in Afghanistan where they have owned lands, a house a city or district have 8-10 children. In Pakistan it´s the same but the dayshave changed the last 30years. In about 50 years Pakistan´s population will reach it´s 210mio mark. I did also not said the article is wrong. Actually it states the same what I said. Panjabis may have a lower birth rates but because of their high numbers as dominant group they have much more children than anyone and their population will grow. You have also to focus only on Pashtuns. The population growing from all sides will just push on Pashtuns as Pashtuns did on non-Pashtuns (Pashais, Ormurs, Daadis, Swatis, Tarkanis etc) in the region the last 2 centuries.

Tajiks have in Afghanistan the highest birth rates, specially in the country side. To at least 13 children. In the cities they come to 4-7 children. You talk about Afghanistan as you talk about your village.
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Posted 09 December 2010 - 05:41 PM

http://en.wikipedia....gion_.282007.29

Region by Fertility Rate (2007)


Urban 3.3

Rural 4.5

Punjab 3.9

Sindh 4.3

KP 4.3

Balochistan 4.1
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Posted 09 December 2010 - 06:30 PM

View PostParsistani, on 09 December 2010 - 02:23 AM, said:

You are wrong. When I read a modern statistic, a very new one which was a work of different non-government groups and shared in famous newspapers and Magazins like Spiegel and Focus than I believe the new results. F.ex. there are 2 mio Pashtun refugees in Pakistan and every family have not more than 4 children while they have in Afghanistan where they have owned lands, a house a city or district have 8-10 children. In Pakistan it´s the same but the dayshave changed the last 30years. In about 50 years Pakistan´s population will reach it´s 210mio mark. I did also not said the article is wrong. Actually it states the same what I said. Panjabis may have a lower birth rates but because of their high numbers as dominant group they have much more children than anyone and their population will grow. You have also to focus only on Pashtuns. The population growing from all sides will just push on Pashtuns as Pashtuns did on non-Pashtuns (Pashais, Ormurs, Daadis, Swatis, Tarkanis etc) in the region the last 2 centuries.

Tajiks have in Afghanistan the highest birth rates, specially in the country side. To at least 13 children. In the cities they come to 4-7 children. You talk about Afghanistan as you talk about your village.


I am not pulling this out of thin air and i only used my family as an example of what is a generally accepted demographic phenomenon; the fact of the matter is that, the world over, urban families have fewer children than rural ones.
Persians are the most urbanized ethnic group in Afghanistan and so this phenomenon is a concern to us.
I seriously doubt a Kabuli Tajik is able or willing to support 13 children in an environment.

150 years ago, Kabul was a quarter Qizilbash.
what happened?
I realize that a wide variety of factors were at play (urbanization of other groups, Abdur Rahman's measures, migration of Qizilbash to escape the civil war) but the overall demographic shift remains and no one can deny that low birthrates had alot to do with the demographic demise of the Qizilbash in Afghanistan.
we might wake up one day and see that the same has happened to the other Persian groups around the country and by then it will be too late.

If you want to walk around screaming "Shahr dar aman ast", that is your imperative.
I am here to takle the PROBLEMS that may or may not be facing the persians of Afghanistan and i consider vigilance the best option
هیچ وقت به خدا نگو یه مشکل بزرگ دارم
به مشکل بگو من یه خدای بزرگ دارم


Go tell the wolves that although the father has been killed,
The father's gun is with us still
Tell them that although all the men of the tribe have been killed,
There is a young boy in the cradle still

Bakhtiari Proverb
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Posted 09 December 2010 - 06:48 PM

You are talking about your village or district but not about the world and Afghanistan. In Afghanistan the Qizilbash play no roles as you tries to prove again and again. The only Qizilbashs that today have a bit influence are Bayat and Said Javad from Kandahar. They became from superiour humen to normal humen...land owners, district holders, shop-keepers, fabric owners etc. Of course your comments this time is mostly hot air. It´s about Tajiks and other non-Pashtuns. Forget Qizilbashs. They are gone with the wind of Baad-e Gaw from Nimruz. Modern Afghanistan is a medi-evil country and was it the last 2 centuries.
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Posted 09 December 2010 - 07:05 PM

View PostParsistani, on 09 December 2010 - 01:48 PM, said:

You are talking about your village or district but not about the world and Afghanistan. In Afghanistan the Qizilbash play no roles as you tries to prove again and again. The only Qizilbashs that today have a bit influence are Bayat and Said Javad from Kandahar. They became from superiour humen to normal humen...land owners, district holders, shop-keepers, fabric owners etc. Of course your comments this time is mostly hot air. It´s about Tajiks and other non-Pashtuns. Forget Qizilbashs. They are gone with the wind of Baad-e Gaw from Nimruz. Modern Afghanistan is a medi-evil country and was it the last 2 centuries.


That is exactly my point
We lost all of our influence or as you say "superiour humen to normal humen."

Why is that?
It has to do with Abdur Rahman and with our demographic decline

There were 12,000 Kabuli Qizilbash in the army of Timur Shah. Since they were all men of military age and even if we assume that nearly ALL the Qizilbash men in Kabul were in the army that still translates to roughly 30,000 Qizilbash in Kabul two centuries ago.
Recent estimates indicate that there are 50,000 Qizilbash in the WHOLE of Afghanistan today

Do you realize the extent of this demographic disaster?

While the population of Afghanistan has multiplied eight-fold in the past two centuries, the Qizilbash population has actually declined.

Do you want the calamity that afflicted the qizilbash to afflict other persian groups in afghanistan?
هیچ وقت به خدا نگو یه مشکل بزرگ دارم
به مشکل بگو من یه خدای بزرگ دارم


Go tell the wolves that although the father has been killed,
The father's gun is with us still
Tell them that although all the men of the tribe have been killed,
There is a young boy in the cradle still

Bakhtiari Proverb
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Posted 09 December 2010 - 07:30 PM

1) Kabul city today is still a Qizilbash stronghold with a significant non-Qizilbash Tajik population
2) Many Qizilbashs, who traditionally belonged to the most high educated part of the population, left the country but did not leave behind their houses, land, goods, families, monies etc.
3) the number of 50 000 is based on Khalqi´s claim from the 80s since Qizilbashs were mostly Parchami, Maoists or belonging to the Mujaheddins and thus were not only an enemy to Pushtuns and their Khalq party by their numbers, but also by their ethnicity, their belief and political education. The correct numbers would be between 200 - 600 000 Qizilbashs only around and in Kabul without counting those who left the country .
4) You do not understand the mentality of Afghanistan´s Tajik population. Once Tajiks have their own build or bought house they have automatically more than 5 children. It was yesterday so, so it´s today. In Afghanistan, getting children have nothing to do with education but with the existence of a family. As large a Tajik family is as much it has influence and prestige. Also the role of the children in their parent´s higher age play a role. Tajiks in Afghanistan are mostly-like Kosovarians. The son live in the house of his father or build to the next side his own house to the house of his father and so on and try to have at least 5 children. But beeing wealthy or not is not the question and also not important. How you do it in Iran I do not know it but that is how we live in Afghanistan.
5) The birth rate in Afghanistan is in general bad but the most highest birth rates have Tajiks. They are the most urbanized people and represent across Afghanistan the middle-, upper-middle and higher classes of the society. The only people who can top Tajiks are the Hazaras, at least today.
6) Stop seeing only through your Qizilbash umbrella. Qizilbash is not an ethnicity, it´s the name of a warrior caste!!!
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Posted 09 December 2010 - 08:07 PM

View PostParsistani, on 09 December 2010 - 02:30 PM, said:

1) Kabul city today is still a Qizilbash stronghold with a significant non-Qizilbash Tajik population
2) Many Qizilbashs, who traditionally belonged to the most high educated part of the population, left the country but did not leave behind their houses, land, goods, families, monies etc.
3) the number of 50 000 is based on Khalqi´s claim from the 80s since Qizilbashs were mostly Parchami, Maoists or belonging to the Mujaheddins and thus were not only an enemy to Pushtuns and their Khalq party by their numbers, but also by their ethnicity, their belief and political education. The correct numbers would be between 200 - 600 000 Qizilbashs only around and in Kabul without counting those who left the country .
4) You do not understand the mentality of Afghanistan´s Tajik population. Once Tajiks have their own build or bought house they have automatically more than 5 children. It was yesterday so, so it´s today. In Afghanistan, getting children have nothing to do with education but with the existence of a family. As large a Tajik family is as much it has influence and prestige. Also the role of the children in their parent´s higher age play a role. Tajiks in Afghanistan are mostly-like Kosovarians. The son live in the house of his father or build to the next side his own house to the house of his father and so on and try to have at least 5 children. But beeing wealthy or not is not the question and also not important. How you do it in Iran I do not know it but that is how we live in Afghanistan.
5) The birth rate in Afghanistan is in general bad but the most highest birth rates have Tajiks. They are the most urbanized people and represent across Afghanistan the middle-, upper-middle and higher classes of the society. The only people who can top Tajiks are the Hazaras, at least today.
6) Stop seeing only through your Qizilbash umbrella. Qizilbash is not an ethnicity, it´s the name of a warrior caste!!!


I sincerely hope that you are right about the birth rate of Tajiks and Hazaras in Afghanistan.
Nothing makes me happier that to know that the demographic security of my people is assured.
I remember seeing ,and still sometimes see, the young children of Tajik or Hazara refugees in Iran; they always made me feel hopeful about the future.
I want you to avoid what is happening to the urban Qizilbash in Iran; we are, slowly but surely, going extinct.
The reason i bring up the qizilbash often is that i have a better understanding of their situation; I fully recognize that we are just one branch of the persian people.
هیچ وقت به خدا نگو یه مشکل بزرگ دارم
به مشکل بگو من یه خدای بزرگ دارم


Go tell the wolves that although the father has been killed,
The father's gun is with us still
Tell them that although all the men of the tribe have been killed,
There is a young boy in the cradle still

Bakhtiari Proverb
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#17 User is offline   asif1986 Icon

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Posted 09 December 2010 - 10:25 PM

View Postقزلباش, on 09 December 2010 - 07:05 PM, said:

That is exactly my point
We lost all of our influence or as you say "superiour humen to normal humen."

Why is that?
It has to do with Abdur Rahman and with our demographic decline

There were 12,000 Kabuli Qizilbash in the army of Timur Shah. Since they were all men of military age and even if we assume that nearly ALL the Qizilbash men in Kabul were in the army that still translates to roughly 30,000 Qizilbash in Kabul two centuries ago.
Recent estimates indicate that there are 50,000 Qizilbash in the WHOLE of Afghanistan today

Do you realize the extent of this demographic disaster?

While the population of Afghanistan has multiplied eight-fold in the past two centuries, the Qizilbash population has actually declined.

Do you want the calamity that afflicted the qizilbash to afflict other persian groups in afghanistan?

There are people who think Qizilbash are just shia tajiks and only difference is sectarian which has been created by pashtun governments to show persian speakers as minority in afghanistan.Do you agree?
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Posted 09 December 2010 - 11:13 PM

View Postasif1986, on 09 December 2010 - 05:25 PM, said:

There are people who think Qizilbash are just shia tajiks and only difference is sectarian which has been created by pashtun governments to show persian speakers as minority in afghanistan.Do you agree?


Qizilbash are Shia Persians

I am against the word "Tajik"
It is a pointless and divisive word

"Tajiks" are Persians and so are Qizilbash
هیچ وقت به خدا نگو یه مشکل بزرگ دارم
به مشکل بگو من یه خدای بزرگ دارم


Go tell the wolves that although the father has been killed,
The father's gun is with us still
Tell them that although all the men of the tribe have been killed,
There is a young boy in the cradle still

Bakhtiari Proverb
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#19 User is offline   Parsistani Icon

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Posted 10 December 2010 - 08:53 AM

View Postقزلباش, on 09 December 2010 - 11:13 PM, said:

Qizilbash are Shia Persians

I am against the word "Tajik"
It is a pointless and divisive word

"Tajiks" are Persians and so are Qizilbash


Tell that the Pashtuns and Pashtunists. ''Persian'' does not exist in Afghanistan, only Tajik. If you would call Tajiks as Persian Afghanistan´s ''unity'' is in danger and it´s against Afghanistan´s policy, Pashtunism. So, right now Qizilbashs are known beeing Tajiks. Your definition of Qizilbash seems also not beeing correct. We have in Afghanistan Bayat Qizilbashs, Afshari Qizilbashs, Qaranjul Qizilbashs who are all originally Turks. But at the same time we have Qizilbashs who can trace their origine of Abu Sanjar Khorasani and other kurdish people and Persians and in some cases also on Georgian origins. They are today all Iranized but if you follow their origines not all of them are Persians. Persians played just the most important roles, not only under the Safavids and other dynasties within the Iranian plateau and outside of it.
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Posted 11 December 2010 - 07:44 AM

View PostParsistani, on 10 December 2010 - 03:53 AM, said:

Tell that the Pashtuns and Pashtunists. ''Persian'' does not exist in Afghanistan, only Tajik. If you would call Tajiks as Persian Afghanistan´s ''unity'' is in danger and it´s against Afghanistan´s policy, Pashtunism. So, right now Qizilbashs are known beeing Tajiks. Your definition of Qizilbash seems also not beeing correct. We have in Afghanistan Bayat Qizilbashs, Afshari Qizilbashs, Qaranjul Qizilbashs who are all originally Turks. But at the same time we have Qizilbashs who can trace their origine of Abu Sanjar Khorasani and other kurdish people and Persians and in some cases also on Georgian origins. They are today all Iranized but if you follow their origines not all of them are Persians. Persians played just the most important roles, not only under the Safavids and other dynasties within the Iranian plateau and outside of it.


Parsistani, My paternal grandfather's origin is probably not Persian and based on my Y-DNA he was probably Armenian or Georgian or Kurd or some other type of South Caucasian. My paternal grandmother was from Rasht in Gilan. On my father's side of the family, I am probably not "Persian" in the strict sense of the word.

I frankly could not care less. Nothing could diminish the love that I have for Iranzamin and for Parsi.
This is the love that was passed on to me from my father; the kind of love that makes me regret that i only have one life to give for Iranzamin.

All Qizilbash love Iranzamin and there is no difference between an Afshar or a Lur in that sense.
In fact, i would argue that the "turkic" Qizilbash are more nationalistic that the "Tajik" Lur/Bakhtiari Qizilbash, not less

There is no Turk-o-Tajik when it comes to Qizilbash; we are one people.
We have had some conflict (ex. Zand vs. Qajars, Bakhtiari vs. Qajar) but we have put that behind us.

Look at these pictures:

Posted Image

The men in white hats are the "Tajik" Lur Qizilbash, the men in the black hats are the "Turk" Qajar Qizilbash.

Posted Image

The man on the right is a Qajar prince and the man on the left is a Lur Khan.




We are one people and we are all lovers of Iranzamin
We have an old exp​ression, "Your hat is no redder than mine and mine is no redder than yours"

I am myself half Shamlu and half Lur

I could not consider myself any more Persian
هیچ وقت به خدا نگو یه مشکل بزرگ دارم
به مشکل بگو من یه خدای بزرگ دارم


Go tell the wolves that although the father has been killed,
The father's gun is with us still
Tell them that although all the men of the tribe have been killed,
There is a young boy in the cradle still

Bakhtiari Proverb
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