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Tajikistan now one third Shiite Rate Topic: ***** 1 Votes

#1 User is offline   Nader Shah Icon

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Posted 30 December 2010 - 05:20 AM

But as hard as it is to believe I came across this news article today: http://www.eurasiare...hiite-24122010/


Shiite missionaries from Iran have increased the share of the followers of that trend in Islam within Tajikistan from 11 percent a year or so ago to 33 percent now, according to Dushanbe officials, a development that has already sparked intra-Islamic conflicts in that country and threatens to deepen its problems in the future.

While the expert community in the former Soviet space and the West has paid some attention to Dushanbe’s recent efforts to recall Tajiks studying in Islamic schools abroad in order to block Sunni radicalism in that Central Asian republic, few writers have paid much attention to a development that may prove even more serious.

Historically, Tajiks, although they speak a Persian language, overwhelmingly have been followers of the Sunni tradition in Islam, something that both distinguishes them from the Iranians and has limited Tehran’s influence there. But the small indigenous Shiite community has grown dramatically in recent months, thanks largely to Iranian missionaries.

In an analysis posted on the Centrasia.ru porta, Fariddun Kabirov argues that this development has been assisted both by Tajikistan President Emomali Rakhmon’s policy of rapprochement with Iran and by Dushanbe’s assumption that it has sufficient resources to counter any Shiite-Sunni clashes (www.centrasia.ru/news.php?st=1293039240).

But that assumption may no longer be justified, Kabirov says. There have already been clashes in various regions of that Central Asian countries between Sunni and Shiia Muslims, clashes that have increased in number and intensity as Shiite missionaries, exploiting Dushanbe’s approach, have “flooded into Tajikistan” and pushed a pro-Iranian line.

According to Kabirov, the Gorno-Badakhshan autonomous oblast, Khatlon and Sogdian oblasts and “even Dushanbe” are now centers of Iranian Shiites there. “It is sufficient to note,” Kabirov continues, “that a year or two ago, Shiites were on the order of 11 percent of all Muslims of Tajikistan. Today this number has more than tripled to 33.4 percent.”

The Muslim Spiritual Directorate (MSD) of Tajikistan, “just like the official powers that be,” has proved itself incapable of blocking the spread of Iranian-backed Shiism there. And as a result, the intensification of clashes between Sunnis and Shiias is now “practically out of control.”

Given this, Kabirov argues, “the Iranians or their local followers” are increasingly the dominant players in Tajik religious life among young people, and they routinely “send the young for instruction in the religious schools of Iran,” something Rakhmon opposes but has not succeeded in ending.

Kabirov adds ominously: Cultural exchanges between Iran and Tajikistan are no longer really that. Instead, Iran sends Shiite missionaries to Tajikistan, and they send Tajiks to Iran to study in order to be their future “colleagues.” Thus, “in our state is slowly but truly being formed a certain invisible army which can become a decisive weapon in future great games.”

And he asks whether this is what Rakhmon intended or now intends.

The rapid shift from Sunni to Shiia among Tajikistan’s Muslims reflects a particular feature of post-Soviet Muslim communities. Because the communist regime prevented Muslims from knowing much about their faith, few Muslims even after 1991 could define with any degree of precision differences between Shiia and Sunni.

Indeed, in many post-Soviet republics, including Tajikistan, Shiia mosques often are referred to by the population as “Iranian mosques,” and Sunni mosques are identified as “national” or “Turkish” or “Saudi” depending on who paid for them and who is the head of the local Muslim community.

In addition to making the shift from one of the trends of Islam to another easier, however, that pattern has another consequence, one which may play an especially large role in a place like Tajikistan. To the extent that those who now choose to identify as Shiia view themselves as going to “Iranian” mosques, at least some of them will tend to identify with Tehran.

That will have the effect of further weakening national identities and the state structures on which they rely and make it far easier for Iran to gain influence in a region where most observers had assumed over the last two decades that it had been largely shut out, a potentially serious development given the problems in neighboring Afghanistan.

About the author:
Paul Goble

Paul Goble is a longtime specialist on ethnic and religious questions in Eurasia. Most recently, he was director of research and publications at the Azerbaijan Diplomatic Academy. Earlier, he served as vice dean for the social sciences and humanities at Audentes University in Tallinn and a senior research associate at the EuroCollege of the University of Tartu in Estonia. He has served in various capacities in the U.S. State Department, the Central Intelligence Agency and the International Broadcasting Bureau as well as at the Voice of America and Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty and at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. Mr. Goble maintains the Window on Eurasia blog and can be contacted directly at paul.goble@gmail.com .
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#2 User is offline   Nader Shah Icon

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Posted 31 December 2010 - 03:24 AM

Hey guys ... what do you think ? Is this important news or not ? Is it real or not ?

If this is true, and the trend continues, then TJ will be a majority Shiite country soon ... and Persian speaking of course.

What is the implication ? If current Iranian government helps so much Arab Lebanese because they are Shiite (well only about 40% of Lebanon) because the government in Iran is focused on Shiism, imagine what help would come to TJ being both Shiite and Persian. Then I cannot see the government in Iran allowing TJ to become a bad example, they will do everything in their power to show that any Shiite country, especially one converting to Shiism (with the Persian connection, imagine that), will be rewarded, supported, and made great. So all the power that Iran can bring to bear will come to help Tajikistan, and to make this country the greatest country in Central Asia (which it deserves to be, esp. with Samarqand and Bukhara included).

FYI - I don't care for Islam or Shiite Islam personally, I am simply analyzing the political implications.
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#3 User is offline   Parsistani Icon

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Posted 31 December 2010 - 09:46 AM

It´s actually neither bad nor good. It would bring some more support from Iran but I guess it will also bring some clashes between fanatic Shia and Sunni followers.
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#4 User is offline   قزلباش Icon

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Posted 31 December 2010 - 04:47 PM

If this development moves the Tajik populace closer to Iran, great.
But it is useful only as a means to an end and i do not care about the religious professions of Tajiks.
هیچ وقت به خدا نگو یه مشکل بزرگ دارم
به مشکل بگو من یه خدای بزرگ دارم


Go tell the wolves that although the father has been killed,
The father's gun is with us still
Tell them that although all the men of the tribe have been killed,
There is a young boy in the cradle still

Bakhtiari Proverb
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#5 User is offline   Nader Shah Icon

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Posted 01 January 2011 - 03:02 AM

Well, I only hope that Tajikistan will become much more powerful. Outside help may be needed to accelerate that march towards power. I don't see much happening without outside help, and the only major help can come from Iran. I am not religious but if TJ becoming 90% Shiite means it will get a big hug from Iran and a big push to help them discover and develop their power, with our help, I am all for it.

If Tajikistan becomes a really powerful country, and this requires military power as well as brain power and infrastructure, then it will drive Tajiks of Afghanistan to become more powerful, and it will help Tajiks of Samarkand and Bukhara want to move away from Uzbekistan.

But, as things are, Tajikistan is moving much too slowly. Big help is needed. And Iran can provide it ... and it is much better than helping the Lebanese Shiites. If we put all our resources and focus on Tajikistan, and if they want it, then all kinds of issues will be more easily resolved.

So in my mind if 90% of Tajikistan becoming Shiite is what is needed, let's go for it even though I am totally against Islam personally.
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#6 User is offline   قزلباش Icon

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Posted 01 January 2011 - 03:55 AM

I would rather have Tajikistanis remain nominally Sunni

I dont want to further isolate the Samarqandis and Bukharis.

Besides, it is naive to think that Tajikistan is ever going to be a major or even a regional power.
A more realisitic aim is to have a Tajikistan that serves that as a bastion of Persian culture in Central Asia.
Soft power not Hard Power.

Tajikistan is simply not large enough to be able to wield hard power.
هیچ وقت به خدا نگو یه مشکل بزرگ دارم
به مشکل بگو من یه خدای بزرگ دارم


Go tell the wolves that although the father has been killed,
The father's gun is with us still
Tell them that although all the men of the tribe have been killed,
There is a young boy in the cradle still

Bakhtiari Proverb
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#7 User is offline   Nader Shah Icon

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Posted 01 January 2011 - 04:18 AM

Qizilbash e Aziz,

I understand where you come from But why are you thinking that TJ cannot be a regional power ? Who else stands in the way ? Obviously, only Uzebkistan. Did you not say we need to free S & B from Turkic influence, or are you giving up on that ? You said you are a fighter, a Qizilbash, a Bakhtiari, how come you give up so easily ?

Yes, it may be a dream, but if we care enough, and take action, our dreams will be realized. Why dream of a weak Tajikistan ? Let us dream of a greater Tajikistan. Let us make Tajikistan much bigger than it is now.

And I don't care about Shiism .... but how do you know Tajiks in S&B will not also convert to Shiism and make the bond even stronger with TJ ?

Being realistic is one thing, but giving up on your dreams and settling for mediocrity does not sound like a successful strategy to me.

Let us have soft power. Hard power needs to be built up in parallel. Do you think Iran's soft power is the result of a hard power vaccum ? Hardly, it is because Iran has hard power in the region that its soft power is persuasive.


View Postقزلباش, on 01 January 2011 - 03:55 AM, said:

I would rather have Tajikistanis remain nominally Sunni

I dont want to further isolate the Samarqandis and Bukharis.

Besides, it is naive to think that Tajikistan is ever going to be a major or even a regional power.
A more realisitic aim is to have a Tajikistan that serves that as a bastion of Persian culture in Central Asia.
Soft power not Hard Power.

Tajikistan is simply not large enough to be able to wield hard power.

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#8 User is offline   قزلباش Icon

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Posted 01 January 2011 - 04:47 AM

View PostNader Shah, on 31 December 2010 - 11:18 PM, said:

Qizilbash e Aziz,

I understand where you come from But why are you thinking that TJ cannot be a regional power ? Who else stands in the way ? Obviously, only Uzebkistan. Did you not say we need to free S & B from Turkic influence, or are you giving up on that ? You said you are a fighter, a Qizilbash, a Bakhtiari, how come you give up so easily ?

Yes, it may be a dream, but if we care enough, and take action, our dreams will be realized. Why dream of a weak Tajikistan ? Let us dream of a greater Tajikistan. Let us make Tajikistan much bigger than it is now.

And I don't care about Shiism .... but how do you know Tajiks in S&B will not also convert to Shiism and make the bond even stronger with TJ ?

Being realistic is one thing, but giving up on your dreams and settling for mediocrity does not sound like a successful strategy to me.

Let us have soft power. Hard power needs to be built up in parallel. Do you think Iran's soft power is the result of a hard power vaccum ? Hardly, it is because Iran has hard power in the region that its soft power is persuasive.


I never said that i am a fighter.
I am a son, a brother, a student, a human, a violinist, a pianist...
I am not a fighter in the purest sense but there are things which i would fight and die for.

we must make sure that we dont lose what we are fighting for in the process of fighting for it.
we can fight and kill in order to create a "Greater Tajikistan" but, in doing so, we would kill the soul of the nation that produced Rumi and Pour Sina.

There are many things Qizilbash are known for and today we are better known as intellectuals than "fighters".
Even our fighting was and is entirely rooted in ideology.

The only true fighters are rabid dogs.
I would fight to prevent us from becoming "fighters".

We are reclaiming Samarqand and Bukhara because they are rightfully ours
we are in the right and we are serving justice in reuniting with our people.
That is something i would fight for.
هیچ وقت به خدا نگو یه مشکل بزرگ دارم
به مشکل بگو من یه خدای بزرگ دارم


Go tell the wolves that although the father has been killed,
The father's gun is with us still
Tell them that although all the men of the tribe have been killed,
There is a young boy in the cradle still

Bakhtiari Proverb
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#9 User is offline   Nader Shah Icon

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Posted 01 January 2011 - 05:33 AM

Alright, I agree that rabid dogs are not our ideal.

And there is nothing to gain here besides S & B, and you were the one to propose a military-political strategy to take it back, and at the time I felt it was not realistic. I still feel it is not realistic in the present, but we need to keep the hope alive, and make it an ideal to strive for. The power balance needs to change, and then many things can happen. So, I am not advocating an attack on Uzbekistan right now, but you did !!! So, let me know if you are repentant !!! I think we need to build power before anything else and then the rest will follow. Without power, if you aim too high, you can lose what you already have ... as I said before ... case in point: Georgia.

So, it is all about building strength. And then results will come, but without strength being overambitious will lead to disaster. This is what I have been saying all along. But we can reevaluate things once we develop our power.

Nader Shah was a case in point. He did not give up on recovering lost territories to Ottomans and Russians, and be happy with defeating Afghans. He aimed higher, but he built up his strength. Today, we face very powerful external enemies and the situation is much harder. But we need not give up, but rather build our power to the point where we can make things happen. And if not, well, that is not the end of the world either.

Glad you are a musician, I learned to play the piano, and I enjoyed it a lot.



View Postقزلباش, on 01 January 2011 - 04:47 AM, said:

I never said that i am a fighter.
I am a son, a brother, a student, a human, a violinist, a pianist...
I am not a fighter in the purest sense but there are things which i would fight and die for.

we must make sure that we dont lose what we are fighting for in the process of fighting for it.
we can fight and kill in order to create a "Greater Tajikistan" but, in doing so, we would kill the soul of the nation that produced Rumi and Pour Sina.

There are many things Qizilbash are known for and today we are better known as intellectuals than "fighters".
Even our fighting was and is entirely rooted in ideology.

The only true fighters are rabid dogs.
I would fight to prevent us from becoming "fighters".

We are reclaiming Samarqand and Bukhara because they are rightfully ours
we are in the right and we are serving justice in reuniting with our people.
That is something i would fight for.

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#10 User is offline   قزلباش Icon

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Posted 01 January 2011 - 07:07 AM

View PostNader Shah, on 01 January 2011 - 12:33 AM, said:

Alright, I agree that rabid dogs are not our ideal.

And there is nothing to gain here besides S & B, and you were the one to propose a military-political strategy to take it back, and at the time I felt it was not realistic. I still feel it is not realistic in the present, but we need to keep the hope alive, and make it an ideal to strive for. The power balance needs to change, and then many things can happen. So, I am not advocating an attack on Uzbekistan right now, but you did !!! So, let me know if you are repentant !!! I think we need to build power before anything else and then the rest will follow. Without power, if you aim too high, you can lose what you already have ... as I said before ... case in point: Georgia.

So, it is all about building strength. And then results will come, but without strength being overambitious will lead to disaster. This is what I have been saying all along. But we can reevaluate things once we develop our power.

Nader Shah was a case in point. He did not give up on recovering lost territories to Ottomans and Russians, and be happy with defeating Afghans. He aimed higher, but he built up his strength. Today, we face very powerful external enemies and the situation is much harder. But we need not give up, but rather build our power to the point where we can make things happen. And if not, well, that is not the end of the world either.

Glad you are a musician, I learned to play the piano, and I enjoyed it a lot.


I do not recant my proposal to attack Uzbekistan in order to capture Samarqand and Bukhara.

Any such attack would aim to safeguard the culture and the lifestyle of the Persian populace of those cities
It would therefore be what i like to call a defensive offensive.
We have a clear casus belli with respect to S & B.

you are right about the need to build power.
In this day and age, more than ever, power is built.
Power no longer comes from the bow string or the lance;
It is ,quite literally, manufactured in the factories of Lockheed and Northrop.
This is the age of the nuclear bomb and the unmanned drone
The americans are killing the Iraqi and Afghan rebels at a 20-30 to 1 kill to loss ratio.
These type of ratios are not seen in wars; they are seen in exterminations.


We must adapt.
fanaticism and courage will not overcome superior technology and preparedness.
We learned that the hard way at Chaldoran and we learned it again during the Iran-Iraq war; I hope we do not repeat our past mistakes.

we must build a strong power base before we start flexing our muscles; it seems that we are doing the opposite at the moment.
هیچ وقت به خدا نگو یه مشکل بزرگ دارم
به مشکل بگو من یه خدای بزرگ دارم


Go tell the wolves that although the father has been killed,
The father's gun is with us still
Tell them that although all the men of the tribe have been killed,
There is a young boy in the cradle still

Bakhtiari Proverb
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#11 User is offline   arshak Icon

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Posted 01 January 2011 - 09:53 AM

This news is good: yes and no is the answer.

Good
====
*closer relationship with fellow Persian nation of Tajikistan which will result in more financial/economical/educational and many other assistance.(although the case of Azerbaijan is an example where two shiite countries[Iran and Azerbaijan] are not close as they should be)
*will unite the two nations of Iran & Tajikistan.

Bad
====
*might cause divisions between Afghanistani-Tajiks and Tajikistani people, also Uzbekistani-Tajiks and Tajikistani people. It will make Tajiks further drift apart.
*increase in shiite population in Tajikistan will mean that intelligence agencies of enemies of Iran will fund/setup in Tajikistan radical,extremist,ultra-fundamentalist,terrorist groups similar to Taliban(Afghanistan), Jundallah(Iran) and other similar groups in Iraq. Which will most likely start a new civil war in Tajikistan.
хоросон бозорг човидон
http://www.persiangulfonline.org/
http://www.arabian-gulf.info/
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#12 User is offline   Parsistani Icon

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Posted 01 January 2011 - 02:48 PM

Uzbekistan need Tajikistan´s water springs to exists. Once the Aral sea is dry the entire regional economic of Uzbekistan will go with the wind. Uzbekistan´s main economy is wool producing and for that they need water for their fabrics and electricity. Tajikistan could actually get a very strong country if their leaders would act much smart. Tajikistan dispose 1/25 of the world drinkwater. It is rich of natural sources but noone is there to go for them. Beside that, Tajikistan is not only an allied, like Uzbekistan, of Russia, but in addition also of China, the future world market and regional power in all Asia.

@Arshak
Tajiks do not make differences between Shia, Sunni or Ismaeli. Non-Tajiks who were our enemies were manipulating people in the mosques from child on but those days are over. We know that we have Ismaelis, Shias, Sunnis and some Beshkashis but we do not make any differences. Before 2001 we were all united again.
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#13 User is offline   قزلباش Icon

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Posted 01 January 2011 - 08:21 PM

View PostParsistani, on 01 January 2011 - 09:48 AM, said:

@Arshak
Tajiks do not make differences between Shia, Sunni or Ismaeli. Non-Tajiks who were our enemies were manipulating people in the mosques from child on but those days are over. We know that we have Ismaelis, Shias, Sunnis and some Beshkashis but we do not make any differences. Before 2001 we were all united again.


We have have great figures from among each sect-Sunni, Shia and Ismaili. we would be denying a part of our history if we were to disassociate ourselves from any sect. Sects are and should not be an issue for us and we should even be willing to embrace our non-muslim brethren (Zoroastrians, etc.)

PS. Parsistani, it is good to hear that there are still Baktashis to be found in that part of the world. All of the scholars who formulated the Qizilbash ideology came from Khorasan. The most prominent are Sheikh Zahed Gilani (from Sanjan) and Haji Baktash (from Neyshapur). We are forever indebted to them.
My father an I visit Sheikh Zahed's tomb every year (I was there 8 days ago). There are amazing stories about that place and about Sheikh Zahed.
I will narrate two of them;

1. When Sheikh Zahed died in 1301, he was buried on the plain of Gilan near the coast by his disciples and by the members of the Zahediyeh sufi order of Lahijan. Soon after his death, he appeared to Sheikh Safi Al-Din (6th in the line of Shah Ismail) in a dream and told him that his tomb would soon be destroyed by a flood. Safi ad din heeded his procphecy and moved his body to a hilltop near Lahijan( his tomb lies on that hilltop to this day). A few day after these events, a massive flashflood washed the entire village of Siahkal and the old tomb which had housed Sheikh Zahed's body into the Caspian sea.

2. Shiekh Zahed appeared to Sheikh Haydar (the father of Shah Ismail) in a dream and told him that his warriors would wear red turbans and would conquer everything from sunrise to sunset. This was what led to the Qizilbash tradition of wearing red headgear and even the ottoman designation for us, "Qizilbash".

Sheikh Zahed was the original "Murshid-e-Kamil".
هیچ وقت به خدا نگو یه مشکل بزرگ دارم
به مشکل بگو من یه خدای بزرگ دارم


Go tell the wolves that although the father has been killed,
The father's gun is with us still
Tell them that although all the men of the tribe have been killed,
There is a young boy in the cradle still

Bakhtiari Proverb
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Posted 01 January 2011 - 11:26 PM

View PostNader Shah, on 30 December 2010 - 05:20 AM, said:

But as hard as it is to believe I came across this news article today: http://www.eurasiare...hiite-24122010/


Shiite missionaries from Iran have increased the share of the followers of that trend in Islam within Tajikistan from 11 percent a year or so ago to 33 percent now, according to Dushanbe officials, a development that has already sparked intra-Islamic conflicts in that country and threatens to deepen its problems in the future.

While the expert community in the former Soviet space and the West has paid some attention to Dushanbe’s recent efforts to recall Tajiks studying in Islamic schools abroad in order to block Sunni radicalism in that Central Asian republic, few writers have paid much attention to a development that may prove even more serious.

Historically, Tajiks, although they speak a Persian language, overwhelmingly have been followers of the Sunni tradition in Islam, something that both distinguishes them from the Iranians and has limited Tehran’s influence there. But the small indigenous Shiite community has grown dramatically in recent months, thanks largely to Iranian missionaries.

In an analysis posted on the Centrasia.ru porta, Fariddun Kabirov argues that this development has been assisted both by Tajikistan President Emomali Rakhmon’s policy of rapprochement with Iran and by Dushanbe’s assumption that it has sufficient resources to counter any Shiite-Sunni clashes (www.centrasia.ru/news.php?st=1293039240).

But that assumption may no longer be justified, Kabirov says. There have already been clashes in various regions of that Central Asian countries between Sunni and Shiia Muslims, clashes that have increased in number and intensity as Shiite missionaries, exploiting Dushanbe’s approach, have “flooded into Tajikistan” and pushed a pro-Iranian line.

According to Kabirov, the Gorno-Badakhshan autonomous oblast, Khatlon and Sogdian oblasts and “even Dushanbe” are now centers of Iranian Shiites there. “It is sufficient to note,” Kabirov continues, “that a year or two ago, Shiites were on the order of 11 percent of all Muslims of Tajikistan. Today this number has more than tripled to 33.4 percent.”

The Muslim Spiritual Directorate (MSD) of Tajikistan, “just like the official powers that be,” has proved itself incapable of blocking the spread of Iranian-backed Shiism there. And as a result, the intensification of clashes between Sunnis and Shiias is now “practically out of control.”

Given this, Kabirov argues, “the Iranians or their local followers” are increasingly the dominant players in Tajik religious life among young people, and they routinely “send the young for instruction in the religious schools of Iran,” something Rakhmon opposes but has not succeeded in ending.

Kabirov adds ominously: Cultural exchanges between Iran and Tajikistan are no longer really that. Instead, Iran sends Shiite missionaries to Tajikistan, and they send Tajiks to Iran to study in order to be their future “colleagues.” Thus, “in our state is slowly but truly being formed a certain invisible army which can become a decisive weapon in future great games.”

And he asks whether this is what Rakhmon intended or now intends.

The rapid shift from Sunni to Shiia among Tajikistan’s Muslims reflects a particular feature of post-Soviet Muslim communities. Because the communist regime prevented Muslims from knowing much about their faith, few Muslims even after 1991 could define with any degree of precision differences between Shiia and Sunni.

Indeed, in many post-Soviet republics, including Tajikistan, Shiia mosques often are referred to by the population as “Iranian mosques,” and Sunni mosques are identified as “national” or “Turkish” or “Saudi” depending on who paid for them and who is the head of the local Muslim community.

In addition to making the shift from one of the trends of Islam to another easier, however, that pattern has another consequence, one which may play an especially large role in a place like Tajikistan. To the extent that those who now choose to identify as Shiia view themselves as going to “Iranian” mosques, at least some of them will tend to identify with Tehran.

That will have the effect of further weakening national identities and the state structures on which they rely and make it far easier for Iran to gain influence in a region where most observers had assumed over the last two decades that it had been largely shut out, a potentially serious development given the problems in neighboring Afghanistan.

About the author:
Paul Goble

Paul Goble is a longtime specialist on ethnic and religious questions in Eurasia. Most recently, he was director of research and publications at the Azerbaijan Diplomatic Academy. Earlier, he served as vice dean for the social sciences and humanities at Audentes University in Tallinn and a senior research associate at the EuroCollege of the University of Tartu in Estonia. He has served in various capacities in the U.S. State Department, the Central Intelligence Agency and the International Broadcasting Bureau as well as at the Voice of America and Radio Free Europe/Radio Liberty and at the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace. Mr. Goble maintains the Window on Eurasia blog and can be contacted directly at paul.goble@gmail.com .


It is bull crap! The shias were never even 11% a more credible estimate of US state department and their embassy put the 2010 figure as 95% Sunni 2% Shia and 2% others.
http://www.state.gov...ei/bgn/5775.htm

Safavid shiaism is no decline even in Iran and nobody will be willing to join akhondi system.

Tajikistan being a secular state declared Hanafi Sunni as the official religion in Tajikistan in 2009. There is no room for manoeuvres for wahabis from saudi or Rafedis from Iran.
Qatar (They are not wahabi) is building the largest Mosque in the Islamic World in Tajikistan alongside a university which will teach secular curriculum (sceince, Art, engineering, computer, etc..) and Islamic knowledge
I am the servant of the Qur'an as long as I have life.
I am the dust on the path of Muhammad, the Chosen One.
If anyone quotes anything except this from my sayings,
I am quit of him and outraged by these words.
Movlana Jalaluddin Balkhi
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#15 User is offline   Nader Shah Icon

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Posted 01 January 2011 - 11:28 PM

With Tajik parts of Uzebkistan, and even possibly Afghanistan if a breakup occurs, the size and population would grow.

Besides, 30 years ago who thought 1-2 million Lebanese Shiites could become such a powerful force ?

However, if things remain as they are, and without outside help, Tajikistan will creep very slowly towards a brighter future. Its claim for fame is that it is the poorest Central Asian nation. I have been saying again and again this thing, that Persians are not powerful or superior in anything but cultural terms over and over again.

I am simply trying to explore possibilities of overcoming limitations, knowing that realities today are very depressing. While knowing that things may not change, we can't simply submit to fate like Sohrab and dig our own graves. How can things change, and that is what I am asking. Perhaps if TJ was 90% Shiite or it it became a Chinese investment magnet it could advance quickly but otherwise I see little hope. Yes in practice it really seems totally hopeless, and I often sympathize with Sohrab. But I have tried once to be a little more daring, and now you are calling me naive :lol:

View Postقزلباش, on 01 January 2011 - 03:55 AM, said:


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Posted 01 January 2011 - 11:33 PM

What's the Qizilbash philosophy, and is this nomenclature you are using regarding the Qizilbash your dad's theory or is it something known to the public.

Before having you on this forum I only heard of Qizilbash in history books, and as a band of warriors from Azarbaijan. I realize I was not well informed, but the extent to which you make the Qizilbash look like a real movement that is still ongoing is puzzling to me. Of course, I have heard about Sheikh Safi and all the rest, but the Qizilbash concept you are putting forward is Safavism or what is it exactly, and you provide some sources ? Because I keep reading Qizilbash stuff from you and don't know where it is all coming from.

View Postقزلباش, on 01 January 2011 - 08:21 PM, said:

All of the scholars who formulated the Qizilbash ideology came from Khorasan. The most prominent are Sheikh Zahed Gilani (from Sanjan) and Haji Baktash (from Neyshapur). We are forever indebted to them.

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Posted 01 January 2011 - 11:45 PM

It does seem like bullcrap to me too, but the words came not from reporters but an official of the Tajikistan government. The only reason they would lie or exaggerate would be to wake up the Americans or Saudis to come and give them money or help. And I really can't believe, even if 11% was correct, that it could jump to 33% in a year or two, It sounds crazy. So it must be propaganda to scare US/Wahhabis/ and get their money and help ... but I doubt people will believe lies and spend billions.

View PostAbuMuslim, on 01 January 2011 - 11:26 PM, said:

It is bull crap! The shias were never even 11% a more credible estimate of US state department and their embassy put the 2010 figure as 95% Sunni 2% Shia and 2% others.
http://www.state.gov...ei/bgn/5775.htm

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Posted 02 January 2011 - 04:23 AM

View PostAbuMuslim, on 01 January 2011 - 06:26 PM, said:

It is bull crap! The shias were never even 11% a more credible estimate of US state department and their embassy put the 2010 figure as 95% Sunni 2% Shia and 2% others.
http://www.state.gov...ei/bgn/5775.htm

Safavid shiaism is no decline even in Iran and nobody will be willing to join akhondi system.

Tajikistan being a secular state declared Hanafi Sunni as the official religion in Tajikistan in 2009. There is no room for manoeuvres for wahabis from saudi or Rafedis from Iran.
Qatar (They are not wahabi) is building the largest Mosque in the Islamic World in Tajikistan alongside a university which will teach secular curriculum (sceince, Art, engineering, computer, etc..) and Islamic knowledge


Chill with the secterianism, Abu

Ill have you know that i take pride in being called a Rafidah (Rejector)

I also doubt that Shi'a make up anywhere near a third of the population of Tajikistan.
As i said, i do not approve of this sort of missionary work.

I could not care less about your personal beliefs.
هیچ وقت به خدا نگو یه مشکل بزرگ دارم
به مشکل بگو من یه خدای بزرگ دارم


Go tell the wolves that although the father has been killed,
The father's gun is with us still
Tell them that although all the men of the tribe have been killed,
There is a young boy in the cradle still

Bakhtiari Proverb
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#19 User is offline   قزلباش Icon

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Posted 02 January 2011 - 04:42 AM

View PostNader Shah, on 01 January 2011 - 06:33 PM, said:

What's the Qizilbash philosophy, and is this nomenclature you are using regarding the Qizilbash your dad's theory or is it something known to the public.

Before having you on this forum I only heard of Qizilbash in history books, and as a band of warriors from Azarbaijan. I realize I was not well informed, but the extent to which you make the Qizilbash look like a real movement that is still ongoing is puzzling to me. Of course, I have heard about Sheikh Safi and all the rest, but the Qizilbash concept you are putting forward is Safavism or what is it exactly, and you provide some sources ? Because I keep reading Qizilbash stuff from you and don't know where it is all coming from.


The Qizilbash are alot older than Shah Ismail.
The ideological component of the movement goes back to atleast the time of Sheikh Zahed who was the Murshid (teacher) of Safi ad din (the ancestor of Shah Ismail). Sheikh Zahed was born in 13th century and fled Khorasan to escape the Seljuq invasion.

There is also a peculiar link to the Khorram-Dinan movement. The khorram-dinan movement was a Mazdaki rebellion against the Arab caliphs. Intrestingly, both movements arose in Azerbaijan and both the Khorram-Dinan and the Qizilbash wore red clothing in battle. In fact, the khorram-dinan were known as the muhammirah ("the red-headed ones" in Arabic) just as we were known as Qizilbash ("red-headed" in Turkish). There were also much deeper connections between the two movements; they both aimed to assert Iranian soveriegnty in the face of foreign caliphs (Arabs in the case of the Khorramdinan and the Turks in the case of the Qizilbash).

There are also weaker links between the Qizilbash and the Hashishian; mainly in the way the two groups operated rather than in their actual beliefs.
هیچ وقت به خدا نگو یه مشکل بزرگ دارم
به مشکل بگو من یه خدای بزرگ دارم


Go tell the wolves that although the father has been killed,
The father's gun is with us still
Tell them that although all the men of the tribe have been killed,
There is a young boy in the cradle still

Bakhtiari Proverb
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Posted 02 January 2011 - 05:54 AM

View PostAbuMuslim, on 02 January 2011 - 09:26 AM, said:

Safavid shiaism is no decline even in Iran and nobody will be willing to join akhondi system.

Tajikistan being a secular state declared Hanafi Sunni as the official religion in Tajikistan in 2009. There is no room for manoeuvres for wahabis from saudi or Rafedis from Iran.


AbuMuslim what you are doing is wrong. Persians should unite and never let religious beliefs divide them. It doesn't matter if a Persian is a Shia, Sunni, Sufi, Catholic,Orthodox, Zoroastrian, Jew and other.

Calling a Shiite, a Rafedhi is an insult. If you and like-minded people continue insulting shias of Iran, you will remain isolated and helpless. This forum is not about bashing and labeling others. It's about bringing persian-speaking people closer. Hopefully one day we will see a day, when a persian can live/work/study (without any restrictions) in any persian-speaking nation whether it's Iran, Tajikistan, Afghanistan or Southern Uzbekistan.
хоросон бозорг човидон
http://www.persiangulfonline.org/
http://www.arabian-gulf.info/
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