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Discussion on Pak-Afg relation

#41 User is offline   Parsistani Icon

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Posted 18 May 2011 - 06:31 PM

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The Taliban and Pashtun Nationalism

Pakistan is looking more dangerous and precarious by the week. The only Muslim country in the world with an arsenal of nuclear weapons is now threatened by a ferocious and rapidly expanding Taliban insurgency. The most retrograde Islamist army on earth has conquered territory just a few hours’ drive from the capital. Though this discouraging outcome wasn’t inevitable, it was at least likely. As Robert Kaplan pointed out in an insightful essay in the current issue of Foreign Policy magazine, “the Taliban constitute merely the latest incarnation of Pashtun nationalism.” And ethnic Pashtuns live on both sides of the Afghanistan-Pakistan border. “Indeed,” Kaplan adds, “much of the fighting in Afghanistan today occurs in Pashtunistan: southern and eastern Afghanistan and the tribal areas of Pakistan.”

Take a look at two maps. The first shows the geographic breakdown of Pakistan’s patchwork of ethnicities. You’ll notice that ethnic Pashtuns live in the notoriously backward and violent northwestern frontier provinces. Their region extends deep into Afghanistan and covers the southeastern part of that country. These two regions – which are actually a single region with a somewhat arbitrary national border between them – are where most Taliban activity has been concentrated since the United States destroyed their regime in Afghanistan. A second map shows the breakdown of areas in Pakistan currently under Taliban control. You’ll see, when you compare the maps carefully, that almost all areas that are either Taliban-controlled or Taliban-influenced, are Pashtun.

The Taliban are more than an exp​ression of Pashtun nationalism, of course. They represent a reactionary movement that idealizes the simplicity and extreme conservatism of 7th century Islam. By burnishing this ideology, the Taliban is able, absurdly, to attract support beyond its Pashtun base.

The ethnic component, though, is a formidable one. It all but guaranteed a certain degree of success by the Taliban in all of “Pashtunistan,” in Pakistan as well as in Afghanistan. Yet all the while, the ethnic map imposes constraints, if not limits, on how far the Taliban can expand.

They were able to seize power in most of Afghanistan before 2001, although the “Northern Alliance” — made up primarily of ethnic Tajiks – managed to hold out until Americans arrived and smashed the regime in Kabul. Since then, the Taliban have had a harder time operating outside “Pashtunistan.” “The north of Afghanistan,” Kaplan writes, “beyond the Hindu Kush, has seen less fighting and is in the midst of reconstruction and the forging of closer links to the former Soviet republics in Central Asia, inhabited by the same ethnic groups that populate northern Afghanistan.”

The Taliban have been able to operate in some areas outside their ethnic perimeter, even so. The maps demonstrate that, as well. “Pashtunistan” is their platform. They aren’t prisoners of their own demographics. They can seize territory beyond their base, but it’s harder.

Armed radical groups in the Middle East run up against similar constraints and limits. Al Qaeda in Iraq has never been able to hold territory outside Sunni Arab areas. They have been able to terrorize Shia Arab neighborhoods in Baghdad, but they can hardly do that much in the Kurdish parts of the country, even though most Iraqi Kurds also are Sunnis. Iraq’s sectarian boundaries are difficult to breach, but the ethnic boundaries are like walls.

Hezbollah in Lebanon has a similar problem. Hardly anyone who isn’t a Shia sincerely supports them or their program. A few Sunnis and Druze, and a larger number of Christians, are willing to tolerate a Shia Islamist militia as a powerful electoral coalition partner for tactical reasons, but they will never submit to a Shia theocracy or the transformation of Lebanon into a formal jihad state or a satellite of Iran. Hezbollah knows it, too, and many of its officials admit as much in public.

Afghanistan and Pakistan, like Lebanon and Iraq, are hypercomplicated Balkanized patchwork states. They’re inherently unstable. Perhaps they always will be if they don’t subdivide into coherent nation-states as most of Yugoslavia did. It’s hard to predict events anywhere in the world, and it’s even harder in countries like these. One thing, though, is all but certain. Now that the Taliban have consolidated power in Pashtunistan, whether they seize control of the capital and the rest of the country or not, they will face stiffer resistance from here on out than they have in the past.
http://www.commentar...un-nationalism/

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#42 User is offline   Sohrab Icon

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 01:21 PM

View PostParsistani, on 15 May 2011 - 08:33 PM, said:



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Taliban are strongly weakend.

I dont think so, look at these as examples:

http://www.foxnews.c...tting-stronger/

http://www.indianexp...oming-w/733016/

and dont forget that David Miliband had warned if nato withraws, the gov in kabul will collapse within 24hrs and the taliban will come.


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You again show that you do are not related with politics. Do you actually support the Tajik case or any pro-Tajik and Khorasan movement, thought, dream? If Pakis get it that America is wiping them out or partition their country and we use Pashtuns and their lapdogs under the name of Taliban against them we can damage Pakis much more than they did to us the last 25 years. At the same time we will be able to push the Pashtuns and their regions on both side to the main and only war zone, a buffer region between us, our allies and NATO and Pakistan, it´s allies and China. Of course Pakistan won´t fall apart as long the government and their men do not want it. Pashtuns on both side can do what they want. Pakistan will be there like Israel after beeing attacked by 12 Arab countries in the 7-day war. In addition, the Pashtun regions will get comprimized to 3/4 of it´s current boundaries and we will have in the west our unofficial borders along Hazarajat, Kabul valley to Jalalabad, western Hilmand along to north-running river. The US and NATO in general can withdraw much of it´s soldiers and saving many billion dollars on their fight against terrorism and Islamism. The ANA and ANP can support them from their back. Also soldiers from Tajikistan and Iran could support us in the south to eye the borders. Those ANA soldiers who are from Kandahar, Paktia, Khowst and Pashtuns can get teached and trained to establish an own Pashtun army to fight the Taliban and the foreign influence from Pakistan in their country. But their statue as a bufferstate between us, our war and the Pakis and their war against us, the western world, America and Israel and India will remain. I am ready to sucrify as much Pashtuns as we can. We have to stand for our own national and ethnical interests in the region. For us, Uzbekistan and Pakistan could be very dangerous.

Whatever you say is fanatasy, why do you think if NWFP gets separated from Paksitan, that will be good for us? You should praise Abdul Rahman Khan for giving away NWFP to the British despite all cruelty he committed against us. For more serious dsicussion on this issue please open a thread in RG, i urge Gul Agha and others to share their comments and stop the observor only role.

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There is no such thing like ''realiable'' source. The current figures are just estimates based on the 60s or from the Russian era in Afghanistan. I have an encyclopedia from 2001 where they figure Awghoos as 60% and Tajiks as 24% like we hadn´t produced more children. But fact is we are present in every province and in every city. We are the oldest inhabitent of the region and we own many large regions. Alone the entire Herat, Ghor, Samangan region is to 80% populated by Tajiks. We have ca. 2 mio refugees outside of Afghanistan. That´s a large region one quarter of Germany and Germany has 83.3 mio population. Pashtuns are only in Kandahar, Khowst, Paktia, Zabul, Uruzgan, eastern Hilmand dominant. Who cares about Registan?? In 60 years they will leave their current regions because of water problems and dry weather. You have no clue. You talk through your stomach. You do not understand their politics. This Yusuf Pashtun f.ex. with his Pashtun agenda created for every province +30% more Pashtuns while all other sources have them -30%. You are manipulated and fooled by many things and you fear alot of things reasonless. These coward and infidel Awghans with their many fake claims where the first who proved themself beeing infidels. When the Russians entered Afghanistan these coward people ran away and took refuge in Pakistan, Iran and Tajikistan or even in Europe, former western soviet states. 80% of all refugees were Awghans., while every other fought on one side against Mujaheddins or against the Soviets.


please give me your source to show tajiks are more than pashtuns.
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#43 User is offline   Parsistani Icon

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 01:34 PM

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Whatever you say is fanatasy, why do you think if NWFP gets separated from Paksitan, that will be good for us? You should praise Abdul Rahman Khan for giving away NWFP to the British despite all cruelty he committed against us. For more serious dsicussion on this issue please open a thread in RG, i urge Gul Agha and others to share their comments and stop the observor only role.


You have no idea about policy and regional-economy. So it does not make sense to talk further on that theme.

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please give me your source to show tajiks are more than pashtuns.


Prove the other claim. When a census was asked for two years ago, Awghan mfkers cried and said it is not time for it, mostly the Wardak gang.
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#44 User is offline   Sohrab Icon

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 01:45 PM

View PostParsistani, on 21 May 2011 - 02:34 PM, said:



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You have no idea about policy and regional-economy. So it does not make sense to talk further on that theme.


as i said before, do open a thread in RG to discuse this issue thoroughly, but please dont jump in every issue and remain focused on the subject only.

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Prove the other claim. When a census was asked for two years ago, Awghan mfkers cried and said it is not time for it, mostly the Wardak gang.


i think they are right, how can you do a census while the country is in a crises?
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#45 User is offline   Parsistani Icon

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 01:50 PM

Which crises and for whom? And lol
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#46 User is offline   Sohrab Icon

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 02:03 PM

View PostParsistani, on 21 May 2011 - 02:50 PM, said:

Which crises and for whom? And lol

there is insurgency going on in the country especially the south and east. even parts of north is not safe and controlled by the taliban, in such a situation any censuse will be meaningless.
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#47 User is offline   Parsistani Icon

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 02:05 PM

View PostSohrab, on 21 May 2011 - 03:03 PM, said:

there is insurgency going on in the country especially the south and east. even parts of north is not safe and controlled by the taliban, in such a situation any censuse will be meaningless.


Where is controlled by the Taiban? Which parts? What is YOUR role in that event? Will you join your brothers and sisters to fight them and possibly free ''those parts'' in the north from them?
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#48 User is offline   Sohrab Icon

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 02:36 PM

View PostParsistani, on 21 May 2011 - 03:05 PM, said:

Where is controlled by the Taiban? Which parts? What is YOUR role in that event? Will you join your brothers and sisters to fight them and possibly free ''those parts'' in the north from them?


you are again directly getting personal, to your question, no i cant and i dont need to give you the details of why i cant.
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#49 User is offline   Parsistani Icon

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Posted 21 May 2011 - 04:59 PM

No, I just ask you if you will be there with us when 90% of our brothers and sisters lying there somewhere bleeding from every hole.
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#50 User is offline   قزلباش Icon

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Posted 22 May 2011 - 06:21 AM

Parsistani, thats a difficult question for anyone to honestly answer.
Maybe 2 or 3 years ago I would said "Yes" without a second thought.
It very easy to say yes but the temptation must be avoided.

Its not a question of courage; its one of purpose.
Say we up under someone like Dostum and die fighting for a man like him.
How would you explain yourself to god in the next world?
Do you think words like "national pride" and "ethnic cohesion" will hold much weight up there?

If we can be sure that we are in the right then its a righteous cause and we can be liberal with our lives.

These are the kinds of questions that we must answer.

In certain cases, these questions are easier to answer than others.
For example, for me, the answer in case of a foreign invasion of Iran would be absolutely clear. In that case, the only question is how to avoid wasting your life. (e.g. you could run out of your home swinging a rifle in broad daylight and be killed immediately or you could be patient and fight with cunning so that you take as many of them with you as possible).
In other cases, the answer is a clear no. Would I take any action if the conflict in Darfur were to escalate? No, I wouldnt. I may have an opinion about it but one would recognize that other loyalties take precedence. In any case, personal involvement in a military conflict should be the ultimate level of devotion to a cause. Lower levels include moral, financial and material support.
There are also cases which are less clear cut and, in my case, this would include potential civil conflict involving Persians in Afghanistan and Uzbekistan. There are many unresolved questions. Would I be serving a righteous cause? Would i even be accepted and embraced by the people I wish to aid?

we all die someday, either tomorrow or in a half a century.
Death is certain but even in its certainty we dictate the terms.
There are infinitely many ways to die and when I think that someday when I am old my grandson may ask me, "grandpa, you were a young man in the days when persian was being wiped off the alleys of Samarqand, what did you do about it?". The brief pain of a bullet seems like a very merciful death in comparison to the searing shame of that moment.
هیچ وقت به خدا نگو یه مشکل بزرگ دارم
به مشکل بگو من یه خدای بزرگ دارم


Go tell the wolves that although the father has been killed,
The father's gun is with us still
Tell them that although all the men of the tribe have been killed,
There is a young boy in the cradle still

Bakhtiari Proverb
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#51 User is offline   Parsistani Icon

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Posted 22 May 2011 - 02:29 PM

We do not fight for Dostum. We fight for Ata, Abdullah x2, Saleh, Gn. Salangi, Gn. Daud Daud, Bismillah Khan and some other good leaders. Doing this fight is for the right cause. We stand against Taliban and Taliban Kharzai and his fascist gang. Isn´t that OK? My concern was why Sohrab always want other´s to do for HIM the job that just produce dirt. He always ask for others while he himself does nothing. Even from UK he has no affords to present. He could write a book in his free time. He could do start with an organization for supporting the poor people of Badakshan ... all these from Uk, no Afghanistan. That´s hypocrisy. With full respect to Sohrab, but I can´t stand such a behave. It´s also not the case of Dafur I ask Sohrab to go there. It´s about his beloved native country. This example is to high and taken from far away. Death is a holly act.
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Posted 22 May 2011 - 03:43 PM

View PostParsistani, on 22 May 2011 - 09:29 AM, said:

We do not fight for Dostum. We fight for Ata, Abdullah x2, Saleh, Gn. Salangi, Gn. Daud Daud, Bismillah Khan and some other good leaders. Doing this fight is for the right cause. We stand against Taliban and Taliban Kharzai and his fascist gang. Isn´t that OK? My concern was why Sohrab always want other´s to do for HIM the job that just produce dirt. He always ask for others while he himself does nothing. Even from UK he has no affords to present. He could write a book in his free time. He could do start with an organization for supporting the poor people of Badakshan ... all these from Uk, no Afghanistan. That´s hypocrisy. With full respect to Sohrab, but I can´t stand such a behave. It´s also not the case of Dafur I ask Sohrab to go there. It´s about his beloved native country. This example is to high and taken from far away. Death is a holly act.


Sohrab hasnt been inactive. He kept the forum alive even when there were very few people here and he continues to visit. I think he is doing more than most.
Nation is a kind of extended family and devotion to its mustn't blind us to our other responsibilities, especially our responsibilities to our immediate families.
Whenever i go to Iran, I tone down my activism to a great extent and this is because i think of how silly it would be to profess affection for Persians while my persian family members are in other corners of Tehran and deprived of my company.
We mustn't lose site of our priorities.
None of us is doing all that we could be doing and i think subtle encouragement would work better than chastisement in fostering greater activism.

As for your other point, I certainly do think that fighting the Taliban is a righteous cause.
There can be very little doubt when one thinks of what happened in Shamali and Mazar Sharif.

By the way, if it were up to me, we would have invaded back in 1998.
Back then, qizilbash officers pretty much controlled the Sepah and nearly every single one of the higher ranking officers was for war.
I have heard first hand that many officers even considered setting up false flag Taliban attacks on border outposts in order to set up a casus belli.
The revolutionary guards tried its utmost to provoke war but, in the end, the cowardly liberal-minded Gharbzadeh Khatami pulled the plug on the whole thing. He was more interested in his cheesy "Dialouge of civilizations".
There was ofcourse the possibility of Pakistani involvement but I am sure that if Ahmadinejad had been in power at the time we would have taken action.
I was quite young back then but I clearly remember the flurry of excitement and activity in our home.
That was probably when i first became interested in issues pertaining to Tajiks.
هیچ وقت به خدا نگو یه مشکل بزرگ دارم
به مشکل بگو من یه خدای بزرگ دارم


Go tell the wolves that although the father has been killed,
The father's gun is with us still
Tell them that although all the men of the tribe have been killed,
There is a young boy in the cradle still

Bakhtiari Proverb
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#53 User is offline   Parsistani Icon

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Posted 23 May 2011 - 06:10 PM

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Sohrab hasnt been inactive. He kept the forum alive even when there were very few people here and he continues to visit.


But that´s not the point. This forum does not change anything in Afghanistan. We can just discuss about our problems and get moving. This forum is just an unmobile mirror of our movement in Afghanistan.
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Posted 24 May 2011 - 04:12 PM



Pakistan says Pashtun will get their lessons if they still dream about fake Turko-Mongolian and Indian country ''Pashtunistan''. Afghanistan and all Pashtuns will get bombed with a nuclear bomb.

:lol:
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#55 User is offline   Parsistani Icon

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Posted 12 June 2011 - 10:49 AM

View PostSohrab, on 14 May 2011 - 07:03 PM, said:

According to Tanai, Pakistan is not at fault, do you agree with him?




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