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Tajik word used in Ferdowsi's poetry Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   Nastoh Icon

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Posted 13 January 2008 - 10:23 PM

Does someone know if the word Tajik is used in Shahnama? Please write it down if you know. Thanks.
??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? . ??? ?
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#2 User is offline   Kambiz Icon

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Posted 13 January 2008 - 10:47 PM

Tajik is a synonym for "Iranian" or "Persian". It had other equivalents in Persian too, like Dehgan, Azada etc. It gained political status only under imperialists dictate. Otherwise, even Saadi refers to himself as Tajik in this beyt:

Shayad ke ba padshah beguyand
Torke to berixt xune tajik.

Or Rumi says:

Yek hamla vo yek hamla, shab amadi tariki,
Torki kon o chosti kon, ne narmi yo tajiki.

But you can't find the term in Shahname, because it appeared a bit later and Muslim Persians were named 'Tajik' by Turks. Tajiks are the purest of the Iranian race.
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#3 User is offline   Kambiz Icon

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Posted 13 January 2008 - 10:48 PM

Correction:

Yak hamla wo yak hamla, shab amad o tariki,
Torki kon o chosti kon, ne narmi yo tajiki.
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#4 User is offline   arshak Icon

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Posted 25 January 2008 - 09:28 AM

[quote=Nastoh;4732]Does someone know if the word Tajik is used in Shahnama? Please write it down if you know. Thanks.
??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? . ??? ?[/quote]

I searched for Tajik, it was not used. Although he mentions Samanids.


Koja On Bozorgane Sasanian, Ze Bahramian ta be Samanian.
??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ? ? ??? ? ??? ? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ?
Source: http://shahnameh.rec...em=398&page=2#5

He always uses Pars and Irani refering to ethnicity no Tajik.
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#5 User is offline   Khurasani Icon

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Posted 26 January 2008 - 11:08 PM

Dear Darius Thanks for nice informations;

And you too Rooyintan.
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#6 User is offline   arshak Icon

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Posted 27 January 2008 - 12:08 PM

here is more from Ferdowsi's Shahnameh with referal to nationality/ethnicity:

??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ??? ? ? ??? ? ? ?? ??? ??
Aba har savari parstandeh siz, Tork o ze Rumi va az Parsi.
http://shahnameh.rec...m=494&page=21#1

? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ??? ? ? ??? ??
Ze panjah baz avaridand siz, ze Irani o Rumi o Parsi
http://shahnameh.rec...m=476&page=19#2
This one could mean Parsi refers to inhabitants of Persia(modern Fars Province in Iran) and Irani perhaps refers to non-Pars(ie. other Aryans like Parthians(Pahlavani/Part-ha), Hyrcanians(Gorgani), Bactrians(Balkhi),etc.

other examples of use of word Iranian from same source:

?? ??? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ???
Cho tang andar amad ze shahi sokhan, ze Iraniyan hark oo bad kohan

??? ? ??? ??? ? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ? ?? ??? ? ??? ?
chenin goft manzar be Iraniyan, ke khaham ke danam be sood o ziyan

I don't know why Ferdowsi didn't use the word Tajik because during the Tahirid and Samanid Dynasties, persian people in Eastern Iran(modern Khorasan province & modern Afghanistan) as well as Central Asia(modern Turkmenistan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan)
were referred to as Tajik people of the crown in order to be distinct from the Turkic population because the royal families of Tahirid and later Samanid were Persians.

It must be noted that Ferdowsi wrote Shahnameh during reign of Sultan Mahmud Ghaznavi(who was a Turkmen from the Ghaznali clan of the Kayi Tribe), perhaps the word Tajik became prohibited to be used as persians no longer held power, does anyone know anything whether the word Tajik was still in use?
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#7 User is offline   Gul agha Icon

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 12:32 AM

People started using Tajik during the Seljuq, Khaharezm Shahan.
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#8 User is offline   Afrasiab Icon

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Posted 28 January 2008 - 09:25 AM

I heard, that the word "Tajik" was used by Greek historian Herodot in the his book - "Persians". He writes, that in northeast of the country of iranians lives "Dodiks" (maybe they were Tojiks-Tajiks?).
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#9 User is offline   Kambiz Icon

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Posted 08 February 2008 - 03:01 PM

[quote=Afrasiab;5207]I heard, that the word "Tajik" was used by Greek historian Herodot in the his book - "Persians". He writes, that in northeast of the country of iranians lives "Dodiks" (maybe they were Tojiks-Tajiks?).[/quote]
The word "Tajik" has never been mentioned by any Greek or non-Greek ancient historians. "Dadik" or "dodik" resemble contemporary "taats" mainly concentrated in the Republic of Azerbaijan. They are Iranian too and (unlike Azeris) have maintained their Iranian language that is close to Persian. It is more likely that the word "tajik" derives from the name of the "Tay" Arab tribe. Arabs were known as Taychik by Sassanids. The word has undergone various deformations and has survived in two forms: "taazi" and "taajik". By the way the word for "Arab" in Armenian is "tachik" too and Chinese "dashi" meaning Arab sounds quite similar to the Middle Persian word as well. As stated earlier, Muslim Iranians were named "Tajik" (or "tezhik") by non-Muslim Turks, since according to their understanding, whoever believed in Arab God was Arab. Later on, the term was accepted by Persians too as a synonym of Pars, Irani, Dehgan (as still used in Pashto as Degan) and Azada (Azadeh).
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#10 User is offline   Parsistani Icon

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Posted 08 February 2008 - 08:04 PM

[quote=Afrasiab;5207]I heard, that the word "Tajik" was used by Greek historian Herodot in the his book - "Persians". He writes, that in northeast of the country of iranians lives "Dodiks" (maybe they were Tojiks-Tajiks?).[/quote]

Tajik is the ''modern'' word of the middle iranian/tocharian word Ta-Yuechi (Kushanians). Indians used ''Taji'' for 2000 years ago for Iranian invasors like Kushanians and Sassanians. Also there were some greec tribes and toward them the tribes of Ionia (ionians) in central asia who were called Da-Yu (modern Tajikistan) from which Tajik can be driven out. But the first point is the correct one. Fictions from 1899 or 1900 of Ency. Britannica who confuse the arabic tribe Tey with Taji are not holdable more, specially not when Tajiks are genetically arians. There is written a new book about the history of Tajiks and their origine plus genetical evidance and from where the name Tajik is originated.
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#11 User is offline   Kambiz Icon

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Posted 09 February 2008 - 06:03 AM

[quote=Parsistani;5568]Tajik is the ''modern'' word of the middle iranian/tocharian word Ta-Yuechi (Kushanians). Indians used ''Taji'' for 2000 years ago for Iranian invasors like Kushanians and Sassanians. Also there were some greec tribes and toward them the tribes of Ionia (ionians) in central asia who were called Da-Yu (modern Tajikistan) from which Tajik can be driven out. But the first point is the correct one. Fictions from 1899 or 1900 of Ency. Britannica who confuse the arabic tribe Tey with Taji are not holdable more, specially not when Tajiks are genetically arians. There is written a new book about the history of Tajiks and their origine plus genetical evidance and from where the name Tajik is originated.[/quote]
There is no doubt that Tajiks are Aryan and Iranian. But the word derives from the Arab Tay tribe indeed and in Pahlavi the word sounds as taychis which resembles Tajik more than Da-Yu. And there is no reason to believe that Tajik could be driven out of an Ioanian (Greeek) word. Most of Orientalists still maintain the fact that Tajik derives of taychik and Iranians were called Taychik (taazik, taazi) just because they were Muslim. Otherwise, before being "tajik" we used to be of different Iranian tribes as Parthian, Soghdian, Baktrian, Khoresmian etc. A "Da-Yu" tribe never was among us.
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#12 User is offline   Gul agha Icon

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Posted 09 February 2008 - 06:27 AM

If all of us pitch in and gather all of these theories, we can write a descriptive article on the origin of the this word.

Tajik may have been derived from Tay (Frye's theory) but it has always beeen synonymous for Persian or Iranian.

For example, Saadi substitutes "Persian" for "Tajik"

??? ? ?? ?? ??? ??? ??? ? ???
??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??.

shayad ke ba Padshah begoyand

Turk Tu Barekht Khoon Tajik

??? ? ??? ? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ???
?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ? ??? ?? ??? ??? .

Negar Turk o Tajik kunad sad khana wairana,
ba an chashman e Tajikanaa wa muzhgan Turkanaa
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#13 User is offline   Parsistani Icon

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Posted 09 February 2008 - 02:39 PM

[quote=Darius;5590]There is no doubt that Tajiks are Aryan and Iranian. But the word derives from the Arab Tay tribe indeed and in Pahlavi the word sounds as taychis which resembles Tajik more than Da-Yu. And there is no reason to believe that Tajik could be driven out of an Ioanian (Greeek) word. Most of Orientalists still maintain the fact that Tajik derives of taychik and Iranians were called Taychik (taazik, taazi) just because they were Muslim. Otherwise, before being "tajik" we used to be of different Iranian tribes as Parthian, Soghdian, Baktrian, Khoresmian etc. A "Da-Yu" tribe never was among us.[/quote]

Da-Yu was the name of modern Tajikistan, called after the greec tribes of the ionians that resided there. Southward we had Tocharistan, Kabulistan ...the name of Tajik drives from Ta-Yuechi (this form is maybe the earliest chinese version like Kankue (Sogdians)or the later chinese term Ta-Hia/Ta-Xia (Bactrians)(we do not know how they called themself)) who were the new succesfully ruler of eastern iran and outside of iran. The Indians called them ''Taji'' (the ''k'' came later during the turkish invasion in 12/13th). Remmeber, the Kushanians were settled in Bactria (at least the royal family)->Ta-Hia (chin. from 3century). Also new researchs are accepting that view. Such an arabic tribe like ''Tey'' who were nomading in central asia and beyond were moved to china and even to mongolia and russia where they converted tribes and nations and they settled with them. In 712, the Tey tribe converted a large part of the turkish tribes in central asia to Islam. As ''fellows of the prophet'' they lived with Turks side by side in Transoxania so they were also assimilated by Turks who could also became ''Tays''. Some years later, their leader were killed by Tajiks which also brought an end of the islamic expansion in central asia (the arabs had no more leader, they became ''turks'', they were no more independent...) and they get in slavery. The term Tajik is much older (demonstrably) than the turkish and arab presence over our regions in central asia. There are very new good works about Tajiks and their origine.
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#14 User is offline   Kambiz Icon

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Posted 09 February 2008 - 11:04 PM

[quote=Parsistani;5612]Da-Yu was the name of modern Tajikistan, called after the greec tribes of the ionians that resided there. Southward we had Tocharistan, Kabulistan ...the name of Tajik drives from Ta-Yuechi (this form is maybe the earliest chinese version like Kankue (Sogdians)or the later chinese term Ta-Hia/Ta-Xia (Bactrians)(we do not know how they called themself)) who were the new succesfully ruler of eastern iran and outside of iran. The Indians called them ''Taji'' (the ''k'' came later during the turkish invasion in 12/13th). Remmeber, the Kushanians were settled in Bactria (at least the royal family)->Ta-Hia (chin. from 3century). Also new researchs are accepting that view. Such an arabic tribe like ''Tey'' who were nomading in central asia and beyond were moved to china and even to mongolia and russia where they converted tribes and nations and they settled with them. In 712, the Tey tribe converted a large part of the turkish tribes in central asia to Islam. As ''fellows of the prophet'' they lived with Turks side by side in Transoxania so they were also assimilated by Turks who could also became ''Tays''. Some years later, their leader were killed by Tajiks which also brought an end of the islamic expansion in central asia (the arabs had no more leader, they became ''turks'', they were no more independent...) and they get in slavery. The term Tajik is much older (demonstrably) than the turkish and arab presence over our regions in central asia. There are very new good works about Tajiks and their origine.[/quote]
The nomad Arab tribe Tay whom Hatam-e Tayi belonged to, had never lived in Central Asia and it was bordering Sassanid Iran on the south. And the "-ik" ending in "Tajik" is not Turkic. It is Iranian, since most of our adjectives used to end with "-ik" or "-ig" and the endings were dropped after the Arab invasion. Actually, it has the same roots like "-ic" suffix in English in words like "classic", "frantic", "problematic" etc. Your suggestions have remained ethimological and this hypothesis has not been accepted by greatest researches of the term. I should reiterate, most of Tajiks before being called Tajik were Soghdian (soghdi - derives from "sorx", red), Bactrian (bakhtarik), Tocharian (takhari), Massaget etc. The single language united a huge bulk of Iranians as Persian. Tajik is a synonym of Persian, Iranian.
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