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Tajiks feelings toward Iran: TJ vs AFG Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   Nader Shah Icon

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 12:24 AM

I have observed that people from Tajikistan are much more friendly to Iranians and have little hatred inside them. On the other side, Tajiks of Afghanistan seem to be divided, with many of the expressing lots of anger against Iranians, and only a minority are able to overcome their hatred.

The government in Tajikistan emphasized the Persian identity (Samanids, etc) and has good relations with Iran. Iran helped mediate during civil war without taking sides (or it seems so) and is pouring money in development projects in Tajikistan.
Iran has also hosted millions of refugees from Afghanistan - but this seems to have backfired and created a lot of hatred. I think if Iran did not accept the refugees our relations would have been better, because refugees were not treated so well. Iran is also pouring money into development of the region around Herat.

What explains friendliness of Tajiks from Tajikestan and hostility of Tajiks from Aghanistan ? I think you people can provide better answers than an Iranian. Please don't be too emotional and think rationally when explaining. Thanks.
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#2 User is offline   PORS Icon

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 04:17 AM

Dorood DooDooli jaane gerami,

That's a very good question and I think the other thread dedicated to "Afghanistan Urges Iran to Stop Deporting Refugees" will give you some portion of the answer.

I have read your reply regarding the above thread, but as far as I was able to understand your position about Iran's policy regarding deportation of refugees, you were little bit vague or I wasn't able to get the whole point of yours. So, if you could provide more and further answer for the thread, that would be very interesting and helpful. Thank you.



Perooz bemaned,



Pors.
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#3 User is offline   Nader Shah Icon

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 06:03 AM

Dooste Khoob, PORS jon, thanks for your comments. I don't think that the refugee problem explains everything, I believe it is a factor that can stoke the fire of antipathy towards Iran (like oil poured on fire - But the fire has been burning for a long time). I believe there are some other issues no one is willing to acknowledge. However, I am not sure what these issues are because I do not know enough about the subject, that is why I am asking your feedback.

To go back to your point, let us answer this question in order to decouple refugee issues and Iran interference from other bad feelings. What was the feelings of Persian speaking people in Afghanistan in the 1970s - before any refugee problem existed, and before Iran's revolution happened ? If we can answer this question it would help a lot (... but I think all people here are too young to comment on those times). Can someone older answer please ?
[quote=PORS;4750]Dorood DooDooli jaane gerami,

That's a very good question and I think the other thread dedicated to "Afghanistan Urges Iran to Stop Deporting Refugees" will give you some portion of the answer.
Pors.[/quote]
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#4 User is offline   Rostam Icon

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 08:06 AM

Doodoli you are absolutly right.....as Tajik you can never dislike Iran....thats like dislike your mother!
But as you know....majority of Tajiks in Afghanistan....are indoctrinated and besuwad...even if they think they are educated!

Doodoli jaan...before 70' it was just the same.....Indoctrinated Tajiks....are just try to find excuses.....like...they are gay and blabla!
A Tajik/persian who is anti-iran/persia.......has no clue about his/her identity....and doesnt deserve to live!

On the other hand....I hope one day Iran....will liberate HIS cities and ground!
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#5 User is offline   Sohrab Icon

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 08:25 AM

[quote=doodooli;4741]I have observed that people from Tajikistan are much more friendly to Iranians and have little hatred inside them. On the other side, Tajiks of Afghanistan seem to be divided, with many of the expressing lots of anger against Iranians, and only a minority are able to overcome their hatred.

The government in Tajikistan emphasized the Persian identity (Samanids, etc) and has good relations with Iran. Iran helped mediate during civil war without taking sides (or it seems so) and is pouring money in development projects in Tajikistan.
Iran has also hosted millions of refugees from Afghanistan - but this seems to have backfired and created a lot of hatred. I think if Iran did not accept the refugees our relations would have been better, because refugees were not treated so well. Iran is also pouring money into development of the region around Herat.

What explains friendliness of Tajiks from Tajikestan and hostility of Tajiks from Aghanistan ? I think you people can provide better answers than an Iranian. Please don't be too emotional and think rationally when explaining. Thanks.[/quote]

salam doodoli jan,

some persian speakers(hazara and tajik) hate the iranian gov and some are angry(like me). it is sad to see this. the iranian gov's negative policies bear alot of responsibilites for uneasiness between the ppl of 2 countries. in 2001 i was in iran, i had a short stay. i couldnt wait to go to iran, it was hard for me to control my emotions, for the first time i was going to a country which spoke my language and i considered them my own ppl. but when i got there everything suddenly changed, like pouring cold water on the fire. when i wanted to extend my visa the officers' behavoiur towards me was appaling. going to the shops was another problem, because they could recognize me to be from afghanistan(my accent). my relatives were in iran for 4 years(that time), they wanted to return back home but it was imposible because of our problems in the country, they were facing many problems, abuse, life hardship, being hassled by the authorities, being detained and alot more. the whole of this process is not healthy and damage our relationships, ppl come to afghanistan with alot of bad memories, it will be the pushtoons who benefit from this situation and no one else.

i dont think 50% of refugees in pakistan was tajiks, i livied in pakistan for 8-9 years. there are more pushtoons than tajiks. SUNNI AND SHIA WAS NEVER AN ISSUE. the tajiks went to pakistan because it was easy to go to pakistan, and one could come back to afghanistan whenever he wanted. our home was in pakistan and i worked in afghanistan, i could easily and regularly come to pakistan for 8 days to spend with my family in one month, but this was not possible in iran.
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#6 User is offline   arshak Icon

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 08:33 AM

I believe the reasons behind Afghani people's unfriendlyness towards Iranians is historical.

1. From 1709 onwards Mir Wais Khan, chief of Ghilzai Tribe of Pushtuns aided by Imamate of Oman and Ottoman Empire started a rebellion against Persia(Iran). His son Mir Mahmoud invaded Isfehan, capital of Persia and killed 30,000+ of Persian nobility.
Later when he was killed, his cousin Ashraf also was abusive and violent towards Persian population. These Ghilzai chiefs since those times united themselves with other afghans(Tajik ethnics of Afghanistan) and started Afghan nationalism based on united Sunni Afghans vs Shiite Persians(Iranians).

2. So yes, most Tajiks in Afghanistan do no care about their Persian identity rather care more about their Sunni Islamic teaching and thus do not like to be associated with their Shiite Iranian kindreds. They would rather identify themselves with Arabs, Pakistani and Turkish people who are all sunnis.
Although some Tajik ethnic Afghans were not like that, zendeh bad shadravan Ahmad Shah Masoud "Shir-e-Panjshir".

Look at Iran now, the Iranians care more about their fellow Shiite Lebanese, Iraqi and Azerbaijani than their fellow Persian kindreds. It is so unfortunte when religion sects causes divisions between the same people. Look at Former Yugoslavia, Serbian(orthodox), Bosnian(Muslim) and Croatians(Catholic) are all the same people but they had ethnic tensions for many years.
It is a sad world! :mad:

I hope oneday we all Iranian(Aryana) people will be united(that includes our Kurdish,Ossetian,Pushtun and Baluch kindreds, as well as our other non-Iranian people like Armenians,Azerbaijani,Uzbeks and Turkmens.
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#7 User is offline   Nader Shah Icon

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 08:50 AM

Yes, I believe this must be true. The hostility runs very deep and it is not just because of refugees. I like the historical details you gave and I wish people could contribute more on the historical background. Foreigners (Ottomans, Arabs, and even the British) succesfully manipulated religion and the erased memory of Tajiks (and others) who now think they are Afghans. I wish Ahmad Shah Massoud was alive and continued his legacy, but the foreigners (Arabs) were clearly aware of his potential to awaken Tajiks to their real identity so they killed him - SAD :(
[quote=rooyintan;4764]I believe the reasons behind Afghani people's unfriendlyness towards Iranians is historical.
.[/quote]
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#8 User is offline   Rostam Icon

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 09:11 AM

Quote

I hope oneday we all Iranian(Aryana) people will be united(that includes our Kurdish,Ossetian,Pushtun and Baluch kindreds, as well as our other non-Iranian people like Armenians,Azerbaijani,Uzbeks and Turkmens.


STOP! This is not a pan-irani site! Pashtuns Never!

No one in history has been that much anti-persian....as the Afghans/Pashtuns! In fact they are the cause of all our problems!....Today we are divided due to them.....and you consider them persian?

Kurds have other language...and dont want to be part of us.....uzbeks and turks are not Persian/Iranian/Aryan!
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#9 User is offline   Sohrab Icon

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 09:14 AM

[quote=doodooli;4766]Yes, I believe this must be true. The hostility runs very deep and it is not just because of refugees. I like the historical details you gave and I wish people could contribute more on the historical background. Foreigners (Ottomans, Arabs, and even the British) succesfully manipulated religion and the erased memory of Tajiks (and others) who now think they are Afghans. I wish Ahmad Shah Massoud was alive and continued his legacy, but the foreigners (Arabs) were clearly aware of his potential to awaken Tajiks to their real identity so they killed him - SAD :( [/quote]

well, i dont agree with this. present day politics has got nothing to do with the facts our friend mentioned, it might be true with the case of pushtoons, but definately not with persian speakers. you tell me, if the iranian gov force the refugees in large numbers(mostly persian speakers) with such a bad way and in this bad weather, how can we admire the gov of iran for its actions? it is only political game being played. Shaheed Masoud also had problems with the iranian gov, we shouldnt forget that iranian gov armed and persuaded the hazaras(also persian speakers) to fight against the tajiks alongside pushtoons.
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#10 User is offline   arshak Icon

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 12:40 PM

[quote=Rostam;4767]STOP! This is not a pan-irani site! Pashtuns Never!

No one in history has been that much anti-persian....as the Afghans/Pashtuns! In fact they are the cause of all our problems!....Today we are divided due to them.....and you consider them persian?

Kurds have other language...and dont want to be part of us.....uzbeks and turks are not Persian/Iranian/Aryan![/quote]

Rostam jan,

Zartosht goft Pendar-e Nik, Goftar-e Nik, Kerdar-e Nik. It's not good to generalise and label everyone from a certain ethnic group
with certain labels. All ethnic groups mentioned had certain cruel, injust and inhumane leaders but doesn't mean that everyone should be given a label!

All I said that there should be unity. I am not saying a great Iranian country should be created. I am saying that discrimination should stop! War and mass killings should stop!
Injustice should stop! Scientific, Economic, Sport, Educational etc should be strengthened. At the moment there is ECO which has 10 members, what I'm saying ECO should become more realistic with even stronger ties somewhat similar to European Union.

Shall that day come true in our lifetime.

With Scientific Progress, Cultural Exchange, Educational and Economic ties a world will become a better place.
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#11 User is offline   arshak Icon

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 01:00 PM

[quote=doodooli;4766]Yes, I believe this must be true. The hostility runs very deep and it is not just because of refugees. I like the historical details you gave and I wish people could contribute more on the historical background. Foreigners (Ottomans, Arabs, and even the British) succesfully manipulated religion and the erased memory of Tajiks (and others) who now think they are Afghans. I wish Ahmad Shah Massoud was alive and continued his legacy, but the foreigners (Arabs) were clearly aware of his potential to awaken Tajiks to their real identity so they killed him - SAD :( [/quote]

Here are some links about historical Persian-Afghan Wars/Conflict:

Hotaki family/Clan of the Ghilzai Tribe:
http://www.4dw.net/r...sia/ghilzai.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghilzai
http://en.wikipedia..../Hotaki_dynasty
http://www.iranica.c...f6/v10f637.html
http://www.iranchamb...s/afsharids.php

Also Herat War: Persian-Afghan War
http://www.iranchamb..._of_herat01.php
http://en.wikipedia....glo-Persian_War
http://www.regiments...nt/56persia.htm
http://www.persiawar.com/
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#12 User is offline   Sohrab Icon

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Posted 14 January 2008 - 01:14 PM

[quote=rooyintan;4776]Here are some links about historical Persian-Afghan Wars/Conflict:

Hotaki family/Clan of the Ghilzai Tribe:
http://www.4dw.net/r...sia/ghilzai.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghilzai
http://en.wikipedia..../Hotaki_dynasty
http://www.iranica.c...f6/v10f637.html
http://www.iranchamb...s/afsharids.php

Also Herat War: Persian-Afghan War
http://www.iranchamb..._of_herat01.php
http://en.wikipedia....glo-Persian_War
http://www.regiments...nt/56persia.htm
http://www.persiawar.com/[/quote]

most of these wars were between the pushtoons and turk rulers of iran, i dont think it has got anything to do with the persian speakers in iran and persian speakers in afghanistan. at the same time some ordinary iranian brothers dont even know we guys are farsi speakers, i have seen some of them myself and they thought i learned farsi somewhere from someone.
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#13 User is offline   arshak Icon

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Posted 15 January 2008 - 07:32 AM

[quote=Rika Khana;4777]most of these wars were between the pushtoons and turk rulers of iran, i dont think it has got anything to do with the persian speakers in iran and persian speakers in afghanistan. at the same time some ordinary iranian brothers dont even know we guys are farsi speakers, i have seen some of them myself and they thought i learned farsi somewhere from someone.[/quote]

As I said Iran and Afghan conflict and dislike goes back to these wars. Iran yes at that time had Turkic dynasties but they spoke Farsi and never used their mother tongue(Azeri), Afghan Tajiks collaborated with their Pushtun countrymen as these conflicts were Shiite vs Sunni, so yes only Farsi speakers from Afghanistan who always had been pro-Iran are the Hazara, Qezelbash who are both shiite. Even in modern times, so many Tajiks from Afghanistan were members of Taliban or if not members collaborated with them. The hostility between fellow Tajiks(Iranian Khorasani & Hazara who are Shiite) and Tajiks from Afghanistan who are sunni had been around for a long time. It is very sad! It is very sad when religious differences causes people to fight one another:mad:

Prior to these wars I mentioned, I can say that there was another Shiite-Sunni war between the two Khorasani Tajik States, Sarbedarid(Sarbedaran) of Iranian Khorasan whose capital was Sabzevar and were Shiites and Kartid(Ale Kart) who were Sunni and had their capital in Herat, these wars were in 1300s after the Ilkhante Mongol Period.

Yes brother I know what you're saying about my countrymen, I am a Mashhadi and some Tehrani people called me Afghan because of my accent! They thought I was lieing to them when I told them I'm Iranian. But that's because they must have never stepped outta Tehran before to hear other Persian accents, so yes I fell for you being treated as a non-Persian speaker. I myself many times get called Kurd or Afghan, etc... even though I'm Iranian.
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#14 User is offline   Sohrab Icon

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Posted 15 January 2008 - 07:56 AM

[quote=rooyintan;4798]As I said Iran and Afghan conflict and dislike goes back to these wars. Iran yes at that time had Turkic dynasties but they spoke Farsi and never used their mother tongue(Azeri), Afghan Tajiks collaborated with their Pushtun countrymen as these conflicts were Shiite vs Sunni, so yes only Farsi speakers from Afghanistan who always had been pro-Iran are the Hazara, Qezelbash who are both shiite. Even in modern times, so many Tajiks from Afghanistan were members of Taliban or if not members collaborated with them. The hostility between fellow Tajiks(Iranian Khorasani & Hazara who are Shiite) and Tajiks from Afghanistan who are sunni had been around for a long time. It is very sad! It is very sad when religious differences causes people to fight one another:mad:

[/quote]

brother, if someone speaks your language it doesnt mean he/she is loyal to us. Mohamadzai pushtoons are completely persianized linguistically and culturly, and it was them that brought the irrepairable damages to the tajiks and other non pushtoons in afghanistan. i should say that there are shia/sunni tensions between us and we saw in the 1990s. but if you suggest that tajiks along with Ghilzai pushtoons were against iran i dont accept this, as we have never done so.
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Posted 15 January 2008 - 09:56 AM

[quote=doodooli;4741]I have observed that people from Tajikistan are much more friendly to Iranians and have little hatred inside them. On the other side, Tajiks of Afghanistan seem to be divided, with many of the expressing lots of anger against Iranians, and only a minority are able to overcome their hatred.

The government in Tajikistan emphasized the Persian identity (Samanids, etc) and has good relations with Iran. Iran helped mediate during civil war without taking sides (or it seems so) and is pouring money in development projects in Tajikistan.
Iran has also hosted millions of refugees from Afghanistan - but this seems to have backfired and created a lot of hatred. I think if Iran did not accept the refugees our relations would have been better, because refugees were not treated so well. Iran is also pouring money into development of the region around Herat.

What explains friendliness of Tajiks from Tajikestan and hostility of Tajiks from Aghanistan ? I think you people can provide better answers than an Iranian. Please don't be too emotional and think rationally when explaining. Thanks.[/quote]


We Tajiks of Tajikistan sympathize with Iran, but did not see iranians. We only know historical Iran. We love Saadi Sherazi, Hafiz Sherazi.
For example, I in my life saw only 2 or 3 iranians. 99% of Tajiks of Tajikistan did not see iranians and have never been in Iran.
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#16 User is offline   Sohrab Icon

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Posted 15 January 2008 - 10:06 AM

We should also talk about the relationship between the ppl of tajikistan and afghanistan. we have been in a very close contact with each other and have a good relationship.
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#17 User is offline   Gul agha Icon

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Posted 15 January 2008 - 06:12 PM

[quote=rooyintan;4798]As I said Iran and Afghan conflict and dislike goes back to these wars. Iran yes at that time had Turkic dynasties but they spoke Farsi and never used their mother tongue(Azeri), Afghan Tajiks collaborated with their Pushtun countrymen as these conflicts were Shiite vs Sunni, so yes only Farsi speakers from Afghanistan who always had been pro-Iran are the Hazara, Qezelbash who are both shiite. Even in modern times, so many Tajiks from Afghanistan were members of Taliban or if not members collaborated with them. The hostility between fellow Tajiks(Iranian Khorasani & Hazara who are Shiite) and Tajiks from Afghanistan who are sunni had been around for a long time. It is very sad! It is very sad when religious differences causes people to fight one another:mad:

Prior to these wars I mentioned, I can say that there was another Shiite-Sunni war between the two Khorasani Tajik States, Sarbedarid(Sarbedaran) of Iranian Khorasan whose capital was Sabzevar and were Shiites and Kartid(Ale Kart) who were Sunni and had their capital in Herat, these wars were in 1300s after the Ilkhante Mongol Period.

Yes brother I know what you're saying about my countrymen, I am a Mashhadi and some Tehrani people called me Afghan because of my accent! They thought I was lieing to them when I told them I'm Iranian. But that's because they must have never stepped outta Tehran before to hear other Persian accents, so yes I fell for you being treated as a non-Persian speaker. I myself many times get called Kurd or Afghan, etc... even though I'm Iranian.[/quote]

First of all, We are not Afghan Tajik, Afghan is an insult to us Tajiks from Afghanistan. Its like calling a Greek "Barbarian" or an Arab "Ajam".

The Tajiks never allied themselves with the Hotakis or the Ghilzais. The Ghilzais fought against Tajiks in Kandahar,Helmand,Nimrooz,Uruzgan..etc

No where in our history have we seen a religious war between the different sects of islam in Khorasan. Shia(Jafaris and ismaelis) and Sunnis have always coex0isted peacefully throughout Khorasan and the main problem in Afghanistan has always been ethnicity. for example, in 1992 most Shia Tajiks aKa Qizilbash allied themselves with Jamiat Islami rather than Wahdat islami(Hazaras).

Tajiks were the only anti Taliban force. I have no clue where you are getting all these false information. There were only few Tajiks in the Taliban and there were even Shia Hazaras who supported and joined the Taliban.

Our accent is Farsi kabuli,Farsi Herati..etc NOT AFGHAN PERSIAN
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Posted 15 January 2008 - 06:35 PM

Very very well said.....gulaqha jaan!
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#19 User is offline   Nader Shah Icon

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Posted 16 January 2008 - 02:51 AM

Interesting ! Hahaha ... Iranians are bad ... Afghans got to know them and hate them ... but Tajikestanis have not known them and behave innocently ... until they start knowing them ! Could it be so ? :D
[quote=Afrasiab;4817]We Tajiks of Tajikistan sympathize with Iran, but did not see iranians. We only know historical Iran. We love Saadi Sherazi, Hafiz Sherazi.
For example, I in my life saw only 2 or 3 iranians. 99% of Tajiks of Tajikistan did not see iranians and have never been in Iran.[/quote]
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Posted 16 January 2008 - 07:06 AM

[quote=doodooli;4860]Interesting ! Hahaha ... Iranians are bad ... Afghans got to know them and hate them ... but Tajikestanis have not known them and behave innocently ... until they start knowing them ! Could it be so ? :D [/quote]

No, I have not told, that iranians are bad. You asked a question about tajiks feelings toward Iran, I told my opinion. But I beleive, that inhabitants of Iran are very cultural and civilized. I was not in Iran and more I can tell nothing about people of Iran.
May be some Korasanian (Awganistan) Tajiks are anger against Iranians because they in Iran were labour migrants. As in other topic Arya-zadeh has told, labour migrants always think badly about inhabitants of that country where they work.
For example, many Tajiks of Tajikistan work in Russia and russians do not love them. And Tajiks in the answer hate russians. I think, that we Tajiks need to create the united Khorasan (Afghanistan, Tajikistan, Samarqand, Bukhara). Than our Tajiks will work in the homeland, not in other countries. And with Iran we will be friendly.
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