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#21 User is offline   Parsistani Icon

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Posted 09 February 2008 - 01:37 PM

Sh=Shughnis, not Tajiks. They live in western china and are decandants of elder iranian and uygur turkic people (same like Awghans). They speak the uygur dialect, not an iranic or persian language.
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Posted 09 February 2008 - 10:51 PM

[quote=Parsistani;5606]Sh=Shughnis, not Tajiks. They live in western china and are decandants of elder iranian and uygur turkic people (same like Awghans). They speak the uygur dialect, not an iranic or persian language.[/quote]
Shughnis are Tajik. They speak in one of seven Pamiri dialects. Most of them live in Tajikistan's Badakhshan.
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Posted 10 February 2008 - 12:16 AM

the shughnis are Tajiks who live in Shughnan(a district in Badakhshan Tajikistan and Afghanistan). They speak a Pamiri dialect which is called "Shughni" and they have no connection with Turks.
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#24 User is offline   arshak Icon

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Posted 11 February 2008 - 09:20 AM

[quote=Gul agha;5468]Nader Afshar was a Kurdish orghan who grew up in the Afshar Tribe. he was an Iranian not a Turk.[/quote]

This is absolutely wrong. You need someone like me a "Bacheye mashhad" to tell you all about Nader Shah Afshar. He is an ethnic Khorasani Turk from the Afshar tribe from Abivard, Khorasan. He was son of Emamqoli "the cloak maker", who died when he was young. He was raised by his mum and had an older brother Ebrahim. When nader was a boy of 15/14 yrs old him and his mum were kidnapped by Uzbeks. They spend many years as slaves to the Uzbeks in captivity. He manages to somehow escape from them and reaches Dargaz, Khorasan and reunites with his older brother Ebrahim who was in service to Koose Ali Beg who was the chief of the Ahmadlou clan of the Afshar tribe. He impresses the chief's daughter while wrestling with Koose Ali Beg's nephews and won their heart, he marries daughter of Koose Ali Beg. He becomes famous when after Koose Ali Beg's death he successfully protected the Afshar Tribal Lands from Turkmen and Uzbek attacks. His popularity reaches Tahmasp II and he enters the service of Tahmasp II when he becomes Commander-in-Chief of Persia's forces to take on Ashraf Hotaki(and his supporters Pushtuns,Sunni Persians(Tajiks),Baluchs and Arab allies). Nader's army consisted of true brave sons of Khorasan and Persia(Zafaranlu Kurds, Afshar Turks, Qaraei Tatars & Tajiks, Jalayir Tatars, Bayat Turk, Zand Lurs, Safavi Qizilbash Azeri, Barabari & Teymuri & Hazara, Qajar Tatars, Turkmens, Baghayeri Tatars, Khozaima Arabs, Sheybani Arabs). He was no Kurd. He was a Turk who spoke Persian, he was a Sunni but praised Imam Ali & Imam Reza and shiite saints, he wanted all muslims to unite(shiite & sunni), he put an end to massacares of shiite commited by Hotaki Afghans and their sunni allies. Yes, when he became Shah he was a cruel leader & looted neighbouring empires like Mughal Empire & Ghilzai Hotaki Lands, but he will always be a true brave protector of Iran, shall his soul rest in peace. He made sure neighbours like Russia, Ottomans, Afghans & Omani to vacate occupied Iranian territory.

Nader Qadar what Afghans refer to is Nader Shah who was father of (late Zahir Shah). Nader Shah Afshar should not be confused with that Pushtun shah.
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Posted 11 February 2008 - 09:47 AM

Thank you Rooyintan for the informative post. I have doubts about Nader's Turkmen origins, however, because I heard directly from someone closely related but then I can't vouch for him either. Furthermore, Nader Shah's portraits show no Mongolian/Turkic features at all.
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#26 User is offline   arshak Icon

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Posted 11 February 2008 - 12:00 PM

[quote=doodooli;5738]Thank you Rooyintan for the informative post. I have doubts about Nader's Turkmen origins, however, because I heard directly from someone closely related but then I can't vouch for him either. Furthermore, Nader Shah's portraits show no Mongolian/Turkic features at all.[/quote]

You're welcome. Well in fact he's a Turkmen, as much as Qajars and Safavi were. In persian, the word Turkmen meant Muslim Turk and Tatar meant a non-Muslim Turk like Nestorian, Buddhist and Shamanist Turks. Ghaznevid & Seljuq were the first dynasties to refer to themselves as Turkmen. The word Tajik means Mardomane Taj or People of the crown this word came to use since Tahirid time when Persians once again became Masters of Central Asia, after they regained it by defeating the Gok-Turks(Blue Turks). When Oghuz Turkmen dynasties such as Ghaznevid, Seljuqs and Khwarazmshahs became rulers of Central Asia, they started to refer to Persians as Tat meaning farmer because the chapter had been turned.

The Turkic population of Iran consists of various types of Turks:
1) Oghuz Turks:
tribes such as Afshar, Seljuq, Inal, Kayi(Ghaznevid & Ottomans), etc were some of the original Oghuz 24 tribes that entered Persia & Central Asia during the Samanid period.

Other tribes who are of Oghuz origin: ethnic Turkmens(tribes of Tekke, Goklen, Jafarbai, Salar, Salyr, etc); ethnic Azerbaijani(desecndants of tribes/clans of Afshar, Shahsavan, Seljuq, Khalaj, Khamseh, Shamlu, Zolqadr, Rumlu, Ustajlu); ethnic Qashqaei.

In the modern world: there are 3 Oghuz Turk countries: Turkey, Azerbaijan and Turkmenistan + 1 unrecognised nation of Turkish Rep of North Cyprus. In Turkey, Turkmen refers to eastern anatolian turks ie. Nomadic, semi-nomadic. While in Iran & Central Asia turkmen thesedays refer to the ethnicity because Azeri & Khorasani Turks no longer refer to themselves as Turkmens.

2) non-Oghuz Turks: These are Turks who are in fact Tatars & Uighurs and others who came with the mongols.
In the modern world: countries like Uzbekistan, Kazakhstan, Kirghizstan, Rep of Tatarstan(part of Russia), and many other Russian republics.

So in Iran we have other turks who are descendants of tribes such as Baharlu, Yaghmaei, Pichaghchi, Nafar, Qaraei/Qara Tatar, Qara Qozlou, Gerayeli, Bayat, Qajar, Jalayer, Baghayer. Many of these turks were called Tatars and came with Mongols. Qajar & Bayat re-entered Persia as members of Qizilbash with the Safavid from Eastern Anatolia. Many of these tribes'descendants now speak Persian rather than Turkic with the exception of Bayat who still speak Turkic and any of these people who live in Azerbaijani speaking provinces of Iran. Most of these tribes can claim ascendance to Genghis Khan.

Teymouri & Barbari people are Persian speakers and do not refer to themselves as turks even though they have mongolic features.

getting back to Turkmens: they are Oghuz turks but during Mongol Invasion mixed with the invaders and aborbed their features. Turkmens are not mongols. Many fellow Iranians on purpose or mistakely refer to them as Mongols.

Pan-Turkism is a new threat for Persian people and every Persian and Tajik should be aware of this threat. Pan-Turkic academics from Turkey claim that all land from Korea til Hungary is turkic land. There are forums of separatist groups on the internet who dream and fantasize about creating South Azerbaijan with the capital Tabriz, South Turkmenistan with te capital Gorgan and Khorasani Turkestan with the capital Bojnord.
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Posted 11 February 2008 - 08:07 PM

I still havent seen any sources from you that have mentioned Sunni Tajiks allied with the hotakis.

Safavids were infact Persian/kurd not Turkmen.

Nader Afshar was a Sunni and the Afshars or Khorasani Turks of that time were all shia.
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Posted 12 February 2008 - 08:45 AM

[quote=Gul agha;5756]I still havent seen any sources from you that have mentioned Sunni Tajiks allied with the hotakis.

Safavids were infact Persian/kurd not Turkmen.

Nader Afshar was a Sunni and the Afshars or Khorasani Turks of that time were all shia.[/quote]

I have a book about Nader Shah Afshar written in persian by an Iranian hostorian he mentions many Sunni people(ie.Sunni Tajik,Pushtun,Sunni Hazara,Sunni Sistani,Sunni Khorasani,Sunni Baluch) of Afghanistan & Iran were part of the Hotaki army. Hotaki were financially & morally supported by Ottomans, Omani and Sunni Imams of Mecca & Medina. Hotaki Army under Mahmud was one of the most cruel and vicious army they killed wherever they found shiites, christians and zoroastrians.

Herat website also mentions Tajik supported Hotaki Tribe:
http://www.herat.co....fi/m-hotaki.htm

I read a lot, plus I think me as an Iranian know more about my country history than you or any other forigner know. I've already described from my vast readings on origins of the word on Turkmen, Tajik and Tatar. I also explained who Safavi, Afshar and other turkic tribes are. So I'm not gonna explain that again.

Gul Agha jan, Ze Gahvareh ta goor danesh bejooi. I don't know why you Tajiks from Afghanistan deny that your forefathers supported Pushtuns. Your forefathers wanted to break away from Persia(Iran) and you got what you wanted an independant country called Afghanistan. When I read about some of my ancestors and how I found out that they allied themselves with Durrani Pushtuns, Qonqirat Turks of Khowrazm and Turkmen & Hazara tribes of Iran and Afghanistan against the Qajar Dynasty, I was shocked to read such a thing as well but I don't go and deny the fact that they didn't ally themselves with Pushtuns.
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Posted 12 February 2008 - 09:21 AM

Here is another proof of Tajiks from Afghanistan collaborated in the foundation of Afghanistan, independance from Persia(Iran) this time supporting Abdali(Durrani) Pushtuns to take the throne and declare independance:
http://hamwatanan.blogfa.com/

Ey Tajik-haye Afghanistan, in mosibat o badbakhti ro khode ajdadetoon baraye shoma be vojood avardand. Tarikh ro bekhanid o pand girid. Parsizabanene digar az Iran o Tajikstan faghat mitavanand baraye shoma arezooye khoshbakhti konand. Shoma khodetoon khastid Afghanistan be vojood biyad pas chera kheili az shoma hala be pushtun-ha fohsh midin o fahashi mikonid. Na khastid Azariha o Iraniyan bar shoma hokoomat konand, hala ham az pushtun-ha delkhorid. Man faghat arezoo mikonam ke parsizabanan ba ham etehad dashteh bashand, mazhab o din o digar tafahom-ha ro be dur begozarand o ba ham Etehadiyeh Pars ro tashkil dahand:
yek zaban
yek vahed-e pool
yek artesh
yek system-e amoozesh o parvaresh
yek ghanoon-e asasi
va digar...

zendeh bashid tamame parsizabanan, inja Irani, Tajikistani o ahsle Afghanistan nadare ma bayad etehad dashte bashim.
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Posted 12 February 2008 - 09:34 AM

Gul Agha is Tajik patriot and he deserves our respect. We don't know for sure how many Tajiks were on Pashtun side, but I think today Tajiks are awakening and we must not delve on the past.
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#31 User is offline   Nader Shah Icon

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 09:39 AM

My grandmother is Afshar Naderi and a direct descendant of Nader Shah. Her hobby was to read Shahnamah for us. Afshars are the greatest patriots, and Mahmood Afshar and his son did great services in the interest of greater Iran, and uniting all Persian speaking people. We never considered ourselves Turkmen. My grandfather told me that Nader was Kurdish ... and he must have known his wife better than you know Nader Shah Afshar.
[quote=rooyintan;5747]You're welcome. Well in fact he's a Turkmen, as much as Qajars and Safavi were. I
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Posted 12 February 2008 - 09:50 AM

[quote=doodooli;5791]Gul Agha is Tajik patriot and he deserves our respect. We don't know for sure how many Tajiks were on Pashtun side, but I think today Tajiks are awakening and we must not delve on the past.[/quote]

I have not been disrespectful to Gul Agha jan or any other person on this forum in any way. If Gul Agha believes I have been disrespectful to him them I have to say that I'm sorry because i didn't. I was simply explaining to everyone that I just don't go and write things, I do read a lot of history stuff because I like history. If things pop out from my readings stored in my head I write it but if people want sources then i can find the source and provide it or if already know the source then put up the link on the forum.

Zendeh bashid tamamiye parsizabanan.
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#33 User is offline   Sohrab Icon

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Posted 12 February 2008 - 09:57 AM

[quote=doodooli;5792]My grandmother is Afshar Naderi and a direct descendant of Nader Shah. Her hobby was to read Shahnamah for us. Afshars are the greatest patriots, and Mahmood Afshar and his son did great services in the interest of greater Iran, and uniting all Persian speaking people. We never considered ourselves Turkmen. My grandfather told me that Nader was Kurdish ... and he must have known his wife better than you know Nader Shah Afshar.[/quote]

I picked the information about Nadir Afshar from Wiki previously which wasnt reliable. I think to sasy he was of Kurdish origin is correct. He had a large number of Kurdish people in his army, both the soldiers and Generals. Some of them settled in Afghanistan and they call themselves Tajiks.
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Posted 12 February 2008 - 06:01 PM

[quote=rooyintan;5783]I have a book about Nader Shah Afshar written in persian by an Iranian hostorian he mentions many Sunni people(ie.Sunni Tajik,Pushtun,Sunni Hazara,Sunni Sistani,Sunni Khorasani,Sunni Baluch) of Afghanistan & Iran were part of the Hotaki army. Hotaki were financially & morally supported by Ottomans, Omani and Sunni Imams of Mecca & Medina. Hotaki Army under Mahmud was one of the most cruel and vicious army they killed wherever they found shiites, christians and zoroastrians.

Herat website also mentions Tajik supported Hotaki Tribe:
http://www.herat.co....fi/m-hotaki.htm

I read a lot, plus I think me as an Iranian know more about my country history than you or any other forigner know. I've already described from my vast readings on origins of the word on Turkmen, Tajik and Tatar. I also explained who Safavi, Afshar and other turkic tribes are. So I'm not gonna explain that again.

Gul Agha jan, Ze Gahvareh ta goor danesh bejooi. I don't know why you Tajiks from Afghanistan deny that your forefathers supported Pushtuns. Your forefathers wanted to break away from Persia(Iran) and you got what you wanted an independant country called Afghanistan. When I read about some of my ancestors and how I found out that they allied themselves with Durrani Pushtuns, Qonqirat Turks of Khowrazm and Turkmen & Hazara tribes of Iran and Afghanistan against the Qajar Dynasty, I was shocked to read such a thing as well but I don't go and deny the fact that they didn't ally themselves with Pushtuns.[/quote]

first of all, one history book wont change anything. I have a book written in english during the 18th century that calls the hotakis "tatarian uzbeks". Tajiks were never allied with afghans in Khorasan(modern Afghanistan) and the only other group besides Afghans who allied themselves with the hotakis were baluchis.

The Tajiks never wanted a seprate afghanistan but it was the Qajars who gave away more than half of iran to the english and the russians.
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Posted 12 February 2008 - 06:04 PM

[quote=doodooli;5792]My grandmother is Afshar Naderi and a direct descendant of Nader Shah. Her hobby was to read Shahnamah for us. Afshars are the greatest patriots, and Mahmood Afshar and his son did great services in the interest of greater Iran, and uniting all Persian speaking people. We never considered ourselves Turkmen. My grandfather told me that Nader was Kurdish ... and he must have known his wife better than you know Nader Shah Afshar.[/quote]

we have descendants of the Afshar people in Kabul and their settlements till today are known as "Afshar" or "Awshar".
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Posted 13 February 2008 - 04:50 AM

Gul Agha Jan,

It seems to me that if there was widespread support for Iran among the population in Afghanistan, Iran would have been able to mobilize troops among them to fight the British, but they had to bring troops from 1000 km away, which they did not have in the first place because Iran was also fighting the Russians. I don't understand how you can only blame it on the Qajars - they may have been incompetent but they held on to most of Iran's territory, and anywhere where population strongly supported Iran and was patriotic stayed in Iran. The real problem is we had to force Afghans to join Iran and they decided to fight Iran and ganged up against ran together with those bastards from Arabia and other traitors.

I see this again and again, complaining about Iran but never helping Iran, and in fact stabbing Iran in the back, as a pattern among Afghans and I think Tajiks are falling in that trap too.

Another thing is to provide evidence for your claims. You seldom provide any evidence or links ... it would really be helpful to back up your statements with facts.

Thank you !

[quote=Gul agha;5811]Tajiks were never allied with afghans in Khorasan(modern Afghanistan) and the only other group besides Afghans who allied themselves with the hotakis were baluchis.

The Tajiks never wanted a seprate afghanistan but it was the Qajars who gave away more than half of iran to the english and the russians.[/quote]
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Posted 13 February 2008 - 05:12 AM

I forgot to add that I am sure the Shiite-Sunni fight was the major factor in all of this. In other words, Iran held on to almost all Shiite Iranian areas but lost almost all the Sunnite areas, beginning with Chaldiran around 1500 when all of Turkish Kurdistan was lost - since the Kurds betrayed Iran and fought with the Ottomans instead. Kurds have also historically always stabbed Iran in the back, unfortunately.
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Posted 13 February 2008 - 05:18 AM

The Qajars - whom I despise overall especially towards the end of their dynasty - happened also to be at the wrong time in history when technology advanced much more rapidly in Europe (Russia, Britain), ie the last 200 years. Others were faced with similar challenges and lost, including China which lost huge territories to Russia. Ottomans lost huge territories to Europe. Egypt was colonized by the French. Only Japan was able to adapt. India was gone wholesale to the British. So let's be objective about this ... despite all odds Iran managed to salvage its core and will soon launch an Iranian-designed communication satellite in orbit with an Iranian rocket, while those who betrayed us, such as Kurds, Afghans and their allies, are much much worse off having fought Iran .... some might say they deserve what they got since they stabbed their own brothers in the back showing the lowest level of moral decency a human being can show.
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Posted 13 February 2008 - 05:26 AM

If this was a Sunni-Shia thing we wouldnt have had Baluchistan and kurdistan in Iran today, and Herat and Hazarajat in Afghanistan. The Tajiks and Hazaras in Afghanistan bravely fought the British in Afghanistan and we defeated them 3 times and it was the Qajars who laid a seige in Herat and almost completely destroyed Herat while the heratis rose against kamran barekzai and were asking for assistance from Iran.

The Qajars gave away most of Central Asia and the caucus to the Tsarists. The Qajars were not natives to Iran. They spoke Turkish in their courts and they were the main force that destroyed the Zands who were Persian.
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Posted 13 February 2008 - 06:15 AM

80% of kurds live outside iran most being in turkey and iraq (lost to ottomans)
70% of baluchi territory is outside iran in pakistan and aghanistan (lost to british)

Karim Khan Zand was the best ruler but if I remember well Iran shrank quite a bit under him and Qajar actually expanded Iran to larger areas which they lost later ...I don't know for sure that Qajars had that much power in Central Asia in the first place, they may have given up claims but I doubt they had a strong presence there .... I will let Rooyintan comment as he is more much more knowledgeable than me in this area

To conside Qajars as Iranian or not Iranian is debatable ... I don't think you can say that they were not Iranian just because they spoke Azeri Turkish ... also they were native to Iran as well as greater Iran ... I believe they migrated from the Caucasus originally but they were established in the Turkmen areas of Iran (still part of Iran) near Gorgan ... But I agree that Qajars were negative overall Rooyintan is the expert

About Herat ... again I let Rooyintan comment

[quote=Gul agha;5827]If this was a Sunni-Shia thing we wouldnt have had Baluchistan and kurdistan in Iran today, and Herat and Hazarajat in Afghanistan. The Tajiks and Hazaras in Afghanistan bravely fought the British in Afghanistan and we defeated them 3 times and it was the Qajars who laid a seige in Herat and almost completely destroyed Herat while the heratis rose against kamran barekzai and were asking for assistance from Iran.

The Qajars gave away most of Central Asia and the caucus to the Tsarists. The Qajars were not natives to Iran. They spoke Turkish in their courts and they were the main force that destroyed the Zands who were Persian.[/quote]
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