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#41 User is offline   arshak Icon

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Posted 13 February 2008 - 08:20 AM

[quote=doodooli;5828]80% of kurds live outside iran most being in turkey and iraq (lost to ottomans)
70% of baluchi territory is outside iran in pakistan and aghanistan (lost to british)

Karim Khan Zand was the best ruler but if I remember well Iran shrank quite a bit under him and Qajar actually expanded Iran to larger areas which they lost later ...I don't know for sure that Qajars had that much power in Central Asia in the first place, they may have given up claims but I doubt they had a strong presence there .... I will let Rooyintan comment as he is more much more knowledgeable than me in this area

To conside Qajars as Iranian or not Iranian is debatable ... I don't think you can say that they were not Iranian just because they spoke Azeri Turkish ... also they were native to Iran as well as greater Iran ... I believe they migrated from the Caucasus originally but they were established in the Turkmen areas of Iran (still part of Iran) near Gorgan ... But I agree that Qajars were negative overall Rooyintan is the expert

About Herat ... again I let Rooyintan comment[/quote]

The border between Safavid and Ottomans were finalised during Shah Abbas the Great's time I believ it was 1639. Ottomans kept Iraq, while Safavid instead kept Georgia, Azerbaijan and Armenia.
Safavids signed treaty to not claim Iraq and Eastern Anatolia again, Ottomans signed treaty to not claim Transcaucasia.

Ottomans broke this treaty numerous times throughout history: the most notable in 1723 when Mir Mahmud Ghilzai invaded Persia, Ottomans continued to push into Western Iran and even managed to occupy Tabriz, Peter the Great had already formed a joint effort with Ahmad III of Ottoman Empire, Peter marched and conquered Transcaucusia, Gilan & Mazandaran.

Ashraf Ghilzai was betrayed by Ottomans, Sunni Brothers Ottomans who first had recognised their fellow Sunni brother Ashraf as the new Shah of Persia(when he killed his cousin Mir Mahmud) went on and stabbed Ashraf in the back by occupying Western Iran. Ashraf though with whom his army were known to be bloodthirsty & ruthless defeated Ottomans(this was the only good thing Afghans ever done good for Persia and that was only to keep their throne).

Anyways let's skip the rest... all I want to say is that Ottomans continued throughout history by claiming Western Iran, Ottomans were defeated by Nader Shah the great, then during Qajar times still raided Western Iran. So the last final border drawn between Ottomans & Iran for Western Iran was done during Qajar period.

Now back to the eastern border:
Nader Shah the great was murdered by his own comrades in 1747, the opportunist chiefs such as Ahmad Abdali(Shah Durrani), Karim Khan Zand, Ali Qoli Afshar(Nader's nephew), Ali Mardan Khan Bakhtiari, ... Khan Haftlang, Azad Khan Afghan, Mohammad Hasan Khan Qajar started to compete with eachother.
Ali Qoli with lots of support managed to become Shah of Persia ruled 1747-1748 and during his reign because of his hatred toward Nader Shah killed all his cousins leaving only Shahrokh(grandson of Nader) alive. Because of his cruelty, Ebrahim(Mohammad Ali Afshar) his brother had him killed so Ebrahim became the new shah and ruled 1748-1749, Shahrokh became shah in 1749 and was blinded by a mob at same year who put Seyed Mohammad Marashi Hosseini as new monarch, Ahmad Durrani helped Shahrokh to reclaim his throne, so Shahrokh became monarch again in 1750, a relative of my ancestor Amir Khan Qaraei who was allied with Noor Mohammad Khan Ghilzai nominated Amir Khan as Governor of Khorasan on behalf of Ahmad Shah Durrani. Amir Khan failed to get rid of Shahrokh and only managed to seige Mashhad. So all those maps you see on Afghan websites showing Mashhad as part of their Durrani Empire is inaccurate. Anyways to cut story short... Shahrokh ruled until 1795 when Agha Mohammad Khan Qajar invaded Khorasan.

Ghurian
During Fath Ali Shah's reign in approximately 1806, my ancestor Eshaq Khan Qaraei occupied Ghurian for Persia, his nephew Yousef Ali Beg became Hakem of Ghurian, Herat also became a part of Persia with a Durrani Prince paying tribute to Persia and reading friday prayers in the name of Fath Ali Shah Qajar. Treaty of Gulistan was signed in 1813 between Persia and Russia. Persia had lost to Russia and ceceded Georgia & Azerbaijan. Khorasani khans went on a rampage opposing Qajar rule and wanted the shameful Qajar monarch to step down.

My ancestor Eshaq Khan was an ambitious man and wanted all of Iranian Khorasan for himself so he started contacting Durrani & Qonqirat Khans of Khowrazm and other Khans of Iranian Khorasan so they all fight Qajars. Yousef Ali Beg his nephew lost his job as Hakem of Ghurian because of his alliance to Afghans, Eshaq Khan was a respected man in Khorasan so he managed to convince Qajar monarch to name Mohammad Khan(who also is an ancestor of mine, son of Eshaq Khan as Hakem of Ghurian), in 1816 Fath Ali Qajar(my qajar ancestor) had eshaq Khan and his elder son Hasan Ali killed. Mohammad Khan decide to take revenge on the qajars so he allied himself with fath Khan vazir of Afghanistan and Mohammad Khan Kalati, Ebrahim Khan Hazarah and Allahqoli Khan of Khorazm. They all fought Qajars on numerous occasions finally my ancestor was captured in 1833 by Abbas Mirza Qajar(my qajar ancestor) and taken to prison in Tehran.

1837 was the beginning of Herat war:
http://www.iranchamb..._of_herat01.php

Herat War was prior to Anglo-Afghan War. In Herat War, Russia supported Persia, Britain supported Afghanistan.

Anglo-Persia War of 1856-1857(also known as Second Herat War):
Britain came to Afghanistan's rescue, else Herat would have been part of Iran now. After British defeated Qajars, then Anglo-Afghan war began.

Origin of Qajar
They are descendant of Genghis Khan's daughter
http://www.qajarpages.org/
They've been in Persia, Azerbaijan & Anatolia at least since 1256 when Hulaku Khan invaded Persia. So they are considered Iranian.
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#42 User is offline   arshak Icon

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Posted 13 February 2008 - 08:34 AM

ethnicity is not an issue in Iran, it doesn't matter if someone is Persian, Turkmen, Azeri, Arab, Kurd, Gilaki, Mazandarani, Bakhtiari, Armenian, baluch, Lor, Hazarah, etc... all are considered Iranian.
In Iranian all people are mixed, i myself can claim my ancestors to be Persian,Arab,Tatar,Turkmen,Azerbaijani,etc...
My famous ancestors are Prophet Mohammad, Imam Ali all the way to Imam Musa Ibn Kazem, Ardeshir Babakan(Ardeshir i of Sasanid) all the way to Shahrbanoo, Samaqar Noyan all the way to Qaraei Khans of Khorasan, Genghis Khan all the way to Abbas Mirza Qajar... etc....

Iran is not Former Yugoslavia, some central African country, Afghanistan....

Zendeh bad Irani har koja ke hasti...
Zendeh bad parsizaban har koja ke hasti..
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#43 User is offline   Parsistani Icon

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Posted 15 February 2008 - 07:16 PM

you should take care. Some Awghan dogs are try to full Tajiks by writing Tajiks were supporting these and these against Iran--
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#44 User is offline   Nader Shah Icon

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Posted 16 February 2008 - 09:22 PM

Interesting, did they come from Iran or are there Afshar native to Afghanistan as well ? (By the way, I am only 1/4 Afshar)
[quote=Gul agha;5812]we have descendants of the Afshar people in Kabul and their settlements till today are known as "Afshar" or "Awshar".[/quote]
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#45 User is offline   Gul agha Icon

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Posted 16 February 2008 - 09:29 PM

They came to Kabul not Afghanistan(NWFP of Pakistan was only called Afghanistan) during Nader Afshar's rule
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#46 User is offline   Khosrau II Icon

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Posted 20 February 2008 - 08:55 PM

Nader shah i do not consider his reign as succesion of Sassanids(peace be upon this kingdom and kings), he is not a persian, but since he was spreading our culture i guess it does'nt make him bad.
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#47 User is offline   Aussie Icon

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Posted 12 March 2008 - 11:25 AM

I regret that I disagree with many about Nader Shah! As a man, even judging him in his time, he was a nutcase. As a soldier and military general the guy has no Asian equal at this time. Brilliant, cunning, flexible in defense and robust in attack ,his Command and Control and Generalship are a delight to read about..

Ironically and not suprisingly many in the west do not know anything about him. I stumbled across him in my studies of Frederick the Great and the Age of Warfare in the Eighteenth Century.

I am currently doing a fair bit of historical research on the Armies and the Military of Nader Shah.His armies, his allies and his enemies. I am looking for research regarding uniforms, types of arms and equipment used. His strategies. Various Infantry, Cavalry and Artillery regiments, what they were equipped with. Were they feudal levies, mercenary, Guard, paid troops? I am especially interested in pictures of him and uniforms of his men and orders of battle during his reign....

Regards
Abdalis
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#48 User is offline   Sohrab Icon

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Posted 12 March 2008 - 11:35 AM

;) [quote=Abdalis;7285]

I am especially interested in pictures of him and uniforms of his men and orders of battle during his reign....

Regards
Abdalis[/quote]

well, people know him in the west and he is regarded as "Akhareen Jahan Gushaye Parsi"

Picture of him and his troops and their uniform? are you serious about this question?
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#49 User is offline   Aussie Icon

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Posted 12 March 2008 - 02:08 PM

Yes! Absolutely! He is not well known. It may come as a shock to you, but I am telling the truth...... Western History is of coarse Euro and Anglo centric. Since the British did not fight him, he is alas somewhat lacking in Anglo-European texts on military and cultural history. The battles he fought and the uniforms, orders of battle etc are just not there. Sure if I wanted to know about The Battles in the same period of history like; Kunersdorf, Kolin, Minden, Quebec, even Plassey, there would be information on uniforms, equipment, troops at the battle, deployments, colour plates and pictures. But regarding the foremost MiddleEastern General of his day - No! Cannot say I have ever heard of him until very recently. And I have a very good background in history from all periods, Ancient through to Modern.

As for the name you gave just then of Nader Shah "Akhareen Jahan Gushaye Parsi". Well I am very much Western and that is even more foreign than the name Nader Shah when googled......

Really the West does not know or document very much of the Eastern histories. Sorry to have to shatter your preconceived notions that the history you know is well discussed and documented over the rest of the world. Which is why again, I have come, to request humbly and ignorantly, that if there are historians and members of this forum that can help me in the studies I am doing, then many more people may come to know other nations history through the eyes of the Eighteenth Century military historian

Regards Again
Abdalis
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#50 User is offline   Sohrab Icon

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Posted 12 March 2008 - 02:45 PM

[quote=Abdalis;7291]Yes! Absolutely! He is not well known. It may come as a shock to you, but I am telling the truth...... Western History is of coarse Euro and Anglo centric. Since the British did not fight him, he is alas somewhat lacking in Anglo-European texts on military and cultural history. The battles he fought and the uniforms, orders of battle etc are just not there. Sure if I wanted to know about The Battles in the same period of history like; Kunersdorf, Kolin, Minden, Quebec, even Plassey, there would be information on uniforms, equipment, troops at the battle, deployments, colour plates and pictures. But regarding the foremost MiddleEastern General of his day - No! Cannot say I have ever heard of him until very recently. And I have a very good background in history from all periods, Ancient through to Modern.

As for the name you gave just then of Nader Shah "Akhareen Jahan Gushaye Parsi". Well I am very much Western and that is even more foreign than the name Nader Shah when googled......

Really the West does not know or document very much of the Eastern histories. Sorry to have to shatter your preconceived notions that the history you know is well discussed and documented over the rest of the world. Which is why again, I have come, to request humbly and ignorantly, that if there are historians and members of this forum that can help me in the studies I am doing, then many more people may come to know other nations history through the eyes of the Eighteenth Century military historian

Regards Again
Abdalis[/quote]

I am afraid i dont know history in depth, perhaps someone else will give you more inforamtion. you said you are westerner? your name is Abdali and i thought you'd be Pushtoon?
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#51 User is offline   Kambiz Icon

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Posted 12 March 2008 - 03:33 PM

Abdalis,

Read the following carefully. It's been said by an Oxford professor in his latest book:

"With a few exceptions Nader, having excited much interest and writing in Europe among his eighteen-century contemporaries, was largely ignored in the nineteenth. why should this have been so?

Without overstating the case, it seems plausible that it was because Nader's vigour and his successes fitted badly with the crude Victorian view of the Orient as incorrigibly decadent and corrupt, ripe for and in need of colonisation. From a purely British perspective, his military successes might then have been thought to detract from the later victories of Clive and Wellington in India, and to have conflicted with the myth of the supposedly inherent superiority of European arms; an important element in the edifice of British imperialism... and the oblivion to which Nader had been consigned was perhaps deepened by a general distaste for conquerors. (Empire of the Mind. A History of Iran; pp. 165-166).

The writer (Michael Axworthy) is British himself, neither Abdali nor Persian.

And if you keep googling as a very much Western person, I'm afraid you won't dig out the truth hidden in proper published books. I'm sorry to be even blunter to ask you not to deny something's existence just because you haven't faced it yet. The issue is very well-documented in many history books, if you just look for them.

Regards


[quote=Abdalis;7291]Yes! Absolutely! He is not well known. It may come as a shock to you, but I am telling the truth...... Western History is of coarse Euro and Anglo centric. Since the British did not fight him, he is alas somewhat lacking in Anglo-European texts on military and cultural history. The battles he fought and the uniforms, orders of battle etc are just not there. Sure if I wanted to know about The Battles in the same period of history like; Kunersdorf, Kolin, Minden, Quebec, even Plassey, there would be information on uniforms, equipment, troops at the battle, deployments, colour plates and pictures. But regarding the foremost MiddleEastern General of his day - No! Cannot say I have ever heard of him until very recently. And I have a very good background in history from all periods, Ancient through to Modern.

As for the name you gave just then of Nader Shah "Akhareen Jahan Gushaye Parsi". Well I am very much Western and that is even more foreign than the name Nader Shah when googled......

Really the West does not know or document very much of the Eastern histories. Sorry to have to shatter your preconceived notions that the history you know is well discussed and documented over the rest of the world. Which is why again, I have come, to request humbly and ignorantly, that if there are historians and members of this forum that can help me in the studies I am doing, then many more people may come to know other nations history through the eyes of the Eighteenth Century military historian

Regards Again
Abdalis[/quote]
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#52 User is offline   Neo Bactra Icon

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Posted 13 March 2008 - 07:32 AM

[quote=rooyintan;5783]I have a book about Nader Shah Afshar written in persian by an Iranian hostorian he mentions many Sunni people(ie.Sunni Tajik,Pushtun,Sunni Hazara,Sunni Sistani,Sunni Khorasani,Sunni Baluch) of Afghanistan & Iran were part of the Hotaki army. Hotaki were financially & morally supported by Ottomans, Omani and Sunni Imams of Mecca & Medina. Hotaki Army under Mahmud was one of the most cruel and vicious army they killed wherever they found shiites, christians and zoroastrians.

Herat website also mentions Tajik supported Hotaki Tribe:
http://www.herat.co....fi/m-hotaki.htm

I read a lot, plus I think me as an Iranian know more about my country history than you or any other forigner know. I've already described from my vast readings on origins of the word on Turkmen, Tajik and Tatar. I also explained who Safavi, Afshar and other turkic tribes are. So I'm not gonna explain that again.

Gul Agha jan, Ze Gahvareh ta goor danesh bejooi. I don't know why you Tajiks from Afghanistan deny that your forefathers supported Pushtuns. Your forefathers wanted to break away from Persia(Iran) and you got what you wanted an independant country called Afghanistan. When I read about some of my ancestors and how I found out that they allied themselves with Durrani Pushtuns, Qonqirat Turks of Khowrazm and Turkmen & Hazara tribes of Iran and Afghanistan against the Qajar Dynasty, I was shocked to read such a thing as well but I don't go and deny the fact that they didn't ally themselves with Pushtuns.[/quote]


I can only imagine the Islamic fervor and sectarian division to have caused Tajiks of Afghanistan to side with Hotaki rulers. Hotakis, on the other hand, might have had some Persianized chiefs. Their rulers must have been persianized so as to have attracted Tajiks. I wonder if they even knew a word of Pashto. Thus, Hotakis could have been at the time as much Persian as Tajiks were. Islam had bound them together. The Shiite rulers' cruel treatment of the Sunni population of Persia, among many other reasons, must have unifiied all diversely racial groups of Khorasan against Persia.

When Islam has been used as a state religion, it has divided and weakened Persians. Persians need to devise a common culture where religion is not the only defining factor. Islam bears Tajiks that can betray their tajiks to Arabs. Let Firdawsi rule.
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Posted 13 March 2008 - 11:17 AM

Dear Darius,

I am well aware of the writer (Michael Axworthy) and his book, Sword of Persia. I am in the process of ordering the book. I hope it is more than an account of his life. I am after all looking for Military info, not a Biography. But thank you for your sanguine response to a request about a topic which truly is not well known in the West. Michael Axeworthy, Jeremy Black etc are amongst a new bread (emphasis on new) of western writers and historians that see value in non Anglo-European history. Thus English texts, of coarse the language I speak, are lacking in vulominous treatises on Middle Eastern personages, bar the occassional poem about Tamurlane.....

Your assertion "not to deny something's existence just because you haven't faced it yet." is on the one hand true and yet still is not true of the basic fact that Nader Shah is not well known, in the west. There are as you rightly assert enough references to him and perhaps even possibly the occasional broad treatise all tucked away in some rustic university. But as I stated you can find anything in rustic texts.. but basically as is even quoted by you, "an important element in the edifice of British imperialism... and the oblivion to which Nader had been consigned was perhaps deepened by a general distaste for conquerors." Again my original assertion that he is not well known. I am not arguing that some acedemics do not know him at all.

So again we come to the point I requested before.... Does anyone have any helpful information or know where to direct me for good info on The Persian Army under Nader Shah. Are there any good texts, books like my dear friend Darius mentioned, or relevant websites or online Musuems I can be referred to in order to get a better knowledge of the Persian Military machine in the time of Nader Shah? This is not a trick question? I do not know why it seems so hard to understand I am trying to find research, not become a professor.... Its not like you can go buy an Osprey book on the man and his Persian Army. Which is why I am asking for help! Surely there is an historian amongst the lot of you. Having read many of the earlier posts on Nader Shah some of you guys know a fair bit about him. Which is why I joined the forum to ask for help in getting references to websites or books etc that relate to my line of inquiry and research....

And no I am not a Yank or a Pom!
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#54 User is offline   arshak Icon

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Posted 13 March 2008 - 02:21 PM

[quote=Abdalis;7341]Dear Darius,

I am well aware of the writer (Michael Axworthy) and his book, Sword of Persia. I am in the process of ordering the book. I hope it is more than an account of his life. I am after all looking for Military info, not a Biography. But thank you for your sanguine response to a request about a topic which truly is not well known in the West. Michael Axeworthy, Jeremy Black etc are amongst a new bread (emphasis on new) of western writers and historians that see value in non Anglo-European history. Thus English texts, of coarse the language I speak, are lacking in vulominous treatises on Middle Eastern personages, bar the occassional poem about Tamurlane.....

Your assertion "not to deny something's existence just because you haven't faced it yet." is on the one hand true and yet still is not true of the basic fact that Nader Shah is not well known, in the west. There are as you rightly assert enough references to him and perhaps even possibly the occasional broad treatise all tucked away in some rustic university. But as I stated you can find anything in rustic texts.. but basically as is even quoted by you, "an important element in the edifice of British imperialism... and the oblivion to which Nader had been consigned was perhaps deepened by a general distaste for conquerors." Again my original assertion that he is not well known. I am not arguing that some acedemics do not know him at all.

So again we come to the point I requested before.... Does anyone have any helpful information or know where to direct me for good info on The Persian Army under Nader Shah. Are there any good texts, books like my dear friend Darius mentioned, or relevant websites or online Musuems I can be referred to in order to get a better knowledge of the Persian Military machine in the time of Nader Shah? This is not a trick question? I do not know why it seems so hard to understand I am trying to find research, not become a professor.... Its not like you can go buy an Osprey book on the man and his Persian Army. Which is why I am asking for help! Surely there is an historian amongst the lot of you. Having read many of the earlier posts on Nader Shah some of you guys know a fair bit about him. Which is why I joined the forum to ask for help in getting references to websites or books etc that relate to my line of inquiry and research....

And no I am not a Yank or a Pom![/quote]

Bio, familytree & Images
http://www.iranchamb...s/afsharids.php
http://www.4dw.net/r...rsia/afshar.htm
http://images.google...ch+Images&gbv=2

Battles

(This is when Nader was chief military commander of Persia under Tahmasp Shah II:
*Battle of Mehmandoost(near Damghan, Iran), 1729
*Battle of Moorchekhort(near Isfahan, Iran), 1729
*Siege of Kandahar, Herat & Afghanistan, 1730-1731
*Siege of Tabriz, 1732??
*Battle of Hamedan, 1732??
*Conquest of Iraq 1732-1734

This is when he was shah
*Conquest of Transoxiana Khanates
*Battle of Karnal, 1739
http://www.sikh-hist...ents/nadir.html
http://en.wikipedia....attle_of_Karnal
http://illustratedpi...day-feb-24.html
*Conquest of Muscat, 1741
*Battle with the Lezgians in Dagistan(aka Daghestan)

Good site: brief info:
http://san.beck.org/...730-1875.html#4
http://irane-man.tri.../NaderShah.html
http://www.ee.bilken.../cradle_20.html
Good section about Nadir Shah
http://books.google....aH_ELaFQY&hl=en

This is nice Source available online:
The History of Nadir Shah: Formerly known as Tahmasp Kuli Khan
http://books.google....aXyyB8H_M&hl=en

People of His Army were from various tribes:
Afshar(Turkic): http://www.iranica.c...6/v1f6a023.html
Zand(Luri): http://www.iranchamb...y/zand/zand.php
Qaraei/Karai(Tajik-Tatar-Turkmen mixed): http://www.iranica.c.../sup/Karai.html
Qajar(Turkmen-Tatar mixed): http://www.qajarpages.org
Bakhtiari(Luri): http://www.bakhtiari.com/, http://www.farhangsa...m/bakhtiari.htm
Baghayeri(Tatar):
Bayat(Tatar-Turkmen mixed): http://www.iranica.c...8/v3f8a075.html
Gerayeli(Tatar-Turkmen mixed):
Jalayir/Jalayer(Tatar-Turkmen mixed): http://www.iranica.c...s_20040616.html
Teymouri(Persianised Uzbeks):
Hazara(Persianised Mongols): http://www.iranica.c.../v12f1080a.html, http://www.hazara.net/
Turkmen ethnic(in particular Goklen,Yomut clans):
Baluch ethnic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Baloch
Kurdish ethnic(in particular Zafaranlu,Shadlu,Ammarlu,Qarachurlu,Chapashlu clans): http://www.iranica.c...9/v1f9a114.html
Saadatlu(Turkic):
Saadlu(Turkic or Kurdish??):
Kizilbash(Turkic): http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qizilbash, http://en.wiktionary.../wiki/Kizilbash
Sistani(Tajik):
Khozaima(Arab): http://www.iranica.c...8/v1f8a006.html
Mishmast(Arab):
Zangooyi(Arab):
Sheybani(Arab):
Abdali(Afghan): http://www.iranica.c...2/v1f2a098.html

Some famous Khans of these tribes served in his army:
Ebrahim Khan Afshar(his elder brother)
Ali Qoli Khan Afshar(his nephew)
Reza Qoli Khan Afshar(his son).
Mohammad Hossein Khan Afshar-Qarakhlu
Tahmasp Khan Jalayer
Haji Muhammad Beg Qaraei
Bagher Khan Qaraei
Mohammad Ali Khan Qaraei
Rahim Khan Gerayeli
Allahyar Khan Gerayeli
Baba Khan Chapashlu
Abbas Qoli Khan Bayat
Ahmad Khan Abdali
Zolfaqar Khan Abdali(Ahmad Khan's brother)
Ali Mardan Khan Bakhtiari
Karim Khan Zand
Abol Fath Khan Haft Lang-Bakhtiari
Ismail Khan Khozaima
Alam Khan Khozaima

NOTE: i will continue updating this entry.
Please find images of soldiers tribal costumes below, for some ethnicities I put modern photos just to give you an indication how these ethnic groups dress like.


Bakhtiari Costume: http://www.une.edu.a...ip_image013.gif
Baluch Costume: http://www.woodstock...ries/baluch.jpg
Pashtun Costume: http://img.tfd.com/w...BB-pashtoon.gif
Hazara Costume: http://upload.wikime...zara_oldman.jpg
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#55 User is offline   Kambiz Icon

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Posted 13 March 2008 - 08:22 PM

Dear Abdalis,

Thank you for your elegant reply and for googling Michael Axworthy. The words I quoted earlier were from his latest book Empire of the Mind: A History of Iran. Ive actually interviewed him over the phone and he sounds more than aware of what hes talking about. And the reason I quoted them was to let you and others know why Nader Shah is less known in the West despite the fact that hes been one of the most vigorous conquerors of the recent centuries of the world. I believe you accept that Axworthy's explanation is plain, ample and adequate enough to make himself understood.

As for his Sword of Persia, certainly its 368 pages couldnt be filled merely with Nader Shahs bio details as those are not that abundant to be compiled into a thick hardcover. Furthermore, the books full title is as follows: Sword of Persia: Nader Shah, from Tribal Warrior to Conquering Tyrant. So, yes, it is full of military info of your interest. Even the relevant data in Empire of the Mind about Nader Shahs dominion could suffice less scrupulous researchers. Both these books are new and it tells about growing interest in Nader Shahs personality in the West nowadays.

Have a look at Jill Bowdens remark on the book:

"Sword of Persia" is not just a book for academics, but also for the ordinary person with an interest in history. Nader Shah was a fascinating character, sometimes likeable, sometimes monstrous who, considering his amazing achievements, deserves a much higher profile in the West than he currently has. I was surprised that I'd never heard of him before I read this very informative book, as he should be as well known as Ghengis Khan and Tamerlane whose careers he mirrored to a certain extent.

This is the way the knowledge on Nader Shah is reaching Bowden-like non-academics and surely, by now Nader Shah is better known than, say, Ahmad Shah Durrani or many others.

So, again I came to draw the same conclusion that the West did not want to acknowledge a Persian Kings enormous military successes due to their need of portraying Iran as a decadent and decaying power. Fortunately, those barriers are eroding under historians inquisitive approach.

There are some older writings that I havent seen yet, like Lawrence Lockhart's "Nadir Shah" (London, 1938). Yet the latest one is Ernest Tuckers Nadir Shah's Quest for Legitimacy in Post-Safavid Iran (October 2006).

Im not sure if you read Persian. Better for you, if you do, since obviously there are more books about Nader Shahs militarism in Persian with the latest being Abu Torab Sardadvars Tarikh-e nezami va siyasiye dowrane Nadershah Afshar (Military and Political History of Nader Shah Afshars Period) published 2 years ago.

There are plentiful of online sources as well, but since not all of them are based on academically proven facts I will refrain from forwarding them to you. If you want to learn it properly, you'd better get your hands on those books.

Good luck and all the best, duste gerami.

[quote=Abdalis;7341]Dear Darius,

I am well aware of the writer (Michael Axworthy) and his book, Sword of Persia. I am in the process of ordering the book. I hope it is more than an account of his life. I am after all looking for Military info, not a Biography. But thank you for your sanguine response to a request about a topic which truly is not well known in the West. Michael Axeworthy, Jeremy Black etc are amongst a new bread (emphasis on new) of western writers and historians that see value in non Anglo-European history. Thus English texts, of coarse the language I speak, are lacking in vulominous treatises on Middle Eastern personages, bar the occassional poem about Tamurlane.....

Your assertion "not to deny something's existence just because you haven't faced it yet." is on the one hand true and yet still is not true of the basic fact that Nader Shah is not well known, in the west. There are as you rightly assert enough references to him and perhaps even possibly the occasional broad treatise all tucked away in some rustic university. But as I stated you can find anything in rustic texts.. but basically as is even quoted by you, "an important element in the edifice of British imperialism... and the oblivion to which Nader had been consigned was perhaps deepened by a general distaste for conquerors." Again my original assertion that he is not well known. I am not arguing that some acedemics do not know him at all.

So again we come to the point I requested before.... Does anyone have any helpful information or know where to direct me for good info on The Persian Army under Nader Shah. Are there any good texts, books like my dear friend Darius mentioned, or relevant websites or online Musuems I can be referred to in order to get a better knowledge of the Persian Military machine in the time of Nader Shah? This is not a trick question? I do not know why it seems so hard to understand I am trying to find research, not become a professor.... Its not like you can go buy an Osprey book on the man and his Persian Army. Which is why I am asking for help! Surely there is an historian amongst the lot of you. Having read many of the earlier posts on Nader Shah some of you guys know a fair bit about him. Which is why I joined the forum to ask for help in getting references to websites or books etc that relate to my line of inquiry and research....

And no I am not a Yank or a Pom![/quote]
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#56 User is offline   Gul agha Icon

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Posted 13 March 2008 - 09:00 PM

Prof. Wasef Bakhtari in one of his programs said that Mirwais was a Shia Sayed and was appointed by the Safavids.

I will ask him for some sources on this next time I see him.
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#57 User is offline   Nader Shah Icon

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 02:40 AM

Darius Jan, as you like to say yourself, Dast Marizad !

Your sources are excellent, accurate, and not biased by Europeans. In fact, I even heard that British thought of invading India after seeing Nader's successes.

There is no doubt about Nader Shah's military genius and I know that his military strategies are still studied in Ecole St Cyr in France, and he has been compared with Napoleon by the French.

He was our greatest military leader - although flawed in some other respects, but we should forgive him given his military genius - and no one can compare with him in recent times (I mean Islamic times).

He is my hero, especially given the fact that he united Shiites and Sunnis, and much of his success owes to his tolerance and open mind. He could gather the best of fighters both Sunnis and Shii, and if he had not been murdered he would have conquered the Ottoman Empire, as he planned to do so.
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#58 User is offline   arshak Icon

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 08:00 AM

[quote=Gul agha;7370]Prof. Wasef Bakhtari in one of his programs said that Mirwais was a Shia Sayed and was appointed by the Safavids.

I will ask him for some sources on this next time I see him.[/quote]

Gul Agha jan,

Interesting! Be waiting to look at some sources.
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#59 User is offline   Aussie Icon

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 09:03 AM

What a great response! Cheers guys for the info and the passionate way you discuss the life and times of Nader Shah. Naturally I am not into the political inspirations he evokes as I am not Persian or have Persian ancestry.
I will say however, that I did postgraduate studies in Ancient history and have always had a fascination for Alexander the Great and the Persians and Darius, who was given a bit of bad press. He was certainly overshadowed by Alex but he was a brave man and the earlier exploits of his were something to be admired. So to is the fact that Persia was one of the few societies that had a social welfare system, not as we know it but the support of pregnant woman by the state demonstrates a society of true culture and civilization. Any way since then I have always had a fascination for the Persians. They play a secondary role in the Age of Napoleon, but they were a power that both the Russians and Ottomans had to respect from 1727- 1820 at least. Unfortunately until now my interest in Persian military history remained ignorant. Only now with your help and energetic research am I beginning to gain an appreciation of the Persian miliatry in the time of Nader Shah and later. Just found out that in the Napoleonic wars the Persians had Horse Artillery. Amazing! Keep up the good work!

Regards
Abdalis
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#60 User is offline   Rostam Icon

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Posted 14 March 2008 - 09:24 AM

Quote

So to is the fact that Persia was one of the few societies that had a social welfare system

Which britians and arabs.......with their slaves (YOUR FUCKING ancestors) have destroyed!
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