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this ruling class was inhabited in the areas, like Balkh,fargana,alai,Tajikistan,badakhshan,Kabul,Takhar,Tashkorogan,Khutan,kashkar,Swat,Kashmir,Peshawar, hashtnager,Dir, Bajour,Gilgit,for serveral thaousand years.
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Gabaro_glt Icon : (26 March 2013 - 10:00 AM) Tajikistan was inhabited by the races of Cyrus the great (Sultan skindar Zulqarnain). The achmaniend dynasty ruled the entire region for several thousnd years.Cyrus the great's son cymbasis(Combchia)with forces migrated to Balkh ancient Bactaria or Bakhtar. Sultan Sumus the desecndant of Cyrus the great faught war against Alaxander of Macdonia in Bakhtar current tajikistan.
this ruling class was inhabited in the areas, like Balkh,fargana,alai,Tajikistan,badakhshan,Kabul,Takhar,Tashkorogan,Khutan,kashkar,Swat,Kashmir,Peshawar, hashtnager,Dir, Bajour,Gilgit,for serveral thaousand years.
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Nader Shah Rate Topic: -----

#81 User is offline   arshak Icon

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 04:36 AM

[quote=Abdalis;7489]Abdalis, Tajiks are known for their sharp intellect, rationality, and tolerance. There might be some amongst them that might lose their temper at some blatant hypocricy, or at wily disguises. But a majority of them just wait and watch with amusement, in other words, they "play along." I am positive that almost all members of the forum by now must have already figured out that you are an Afghan/Pashton, or a die-hard sympathizer, cunningly hiding yourself behind pseudo-intellectual english words and aiming at devising a fine character out of Ahmad Khan Abdali, who only had one thing that can be evidently said to have been fine, his face. I have been reading your texts, and I knew it was coming. I knew you would eventually use Nader Afshar as a tool for giving your Baba some positive publicity.

Wow! You guys got me! I must have been dreaming to think I could outsmart you guys with your smart intellects etc. Here I am thinking that I am in fact an Aussie who has his own hobby shop and is writing a wargaming article on the Persian army of the Eighteenth century. You know what, I was dubious about signing on because of the preconceptions about middle eastern craziness. For a moment there I thought I was wrong. But you know what! Not only do I not understand half the bloody things you blokes are saying both literally and culturally, but this final statement from you guys says it all. No wonder so much of the middle east is screwed if this is how you think. Why in the world would I bother trying to be so cunning and so smart to bother writing about some guys named Baba, Nader Afsha, Ahmad Khan Abdali etc. I do not even know them, nor do I give a rats arse about them. You guys are so blind and ignorant that you actually try and come side ways at each other before stabbing each other in the back. Are your homes and your countries sooooo %$#@ up (pardon my French) that this is how you all act to one another. And you wonder why the Aussies and Americans and Brits have to come over and clean up the mess you people leave behind. And the greatest tradgedy of it all is that the USA is crap at rebuilding countries infrastructure, Germany and Japan aside post WWII. They do not have a clue how to rebuild Iraq, Afghanistan or Somalia Mogadishu etc. But at least they are being proactive. All you Turban wearing warriors with your sabre rattling and violence can do is just keep fighting each other and then everyone else when one of your smarter and more ruthless figureheads works out that if you focus the blame on westerners than nobody will see the inherant problems within the country or the human rights abuses so prevalent in Iran, Afghanistan etc. There is little freedom of speech or freedom of thought, just malignant hate and violence.

Well I have a fair bit of info on Nader Shah and I have the pictures and info that was kindly downloaded for my so called "play along" charade. So maybe I should tell the lot of you to go to hell and enjoy the really crazy ruinious type of hate and stupity you all seem to exact on each other. I do not give a rats arse whether you are Pushton, Afghani, Tajik or whatever, all I wanted was to get info on Nader Shah and his military. The guy was a nutcase anyway... But I still hold a great general!

An "Afghan/Pashton, or a die-hard sympathizer" indeed! You should all be very ashamed of yourselves. You all seem to need therapy. Who cares whose Grandaddy ruled who and whose great, great grandfather killed the other great ,great grandfather. Get over it! Its history! Oh yeah! I forgot you cannot! That is too bad! Because while I am enjoy the peace and freedom here in Oz you are all going to continue killing and blaming each other in your third world, war torn countries and then wondering why you cannot feed your own people or why foreigners are in your country settling internal disputes...... You guys need to get laid or something!

To those that did help, my thanks. To those that put Machiavelli and Tsun Tzu to shame. Grow up or Bugger off![/quote]

Don't always blame the Yanks for everything. Look at the mess in Solomon Islands, East Timor, Fiji and Bougainville Islands, did Aussies clean up mess there? or did they create more mess by interfering in those countries' internal affairs! Maybe it's best stopping being a pathetic sticky beak and mind their own business.

Also in Australia, I can tell you that most people are so uneducated that they can't even place countries on the map and yet always make fun of Yanks for not be able to do that! isn't that an irony. The sad thing is Aussies think that people from Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iran are arabic speaking, think everyone ride a camel, the whole country is vast dry deserts. In fact they don't believe us when we talk about harsh cold winters in our countries, talking about big crowded busy cities with populations of 3 million plus or Tehran with a population of 12 million, check out www.tehran24.com to see how Iran's capital look like.

Human Rights abuses what are you talking about. Look at what happend to the aborigines throughout history. Only just last month the prime minister appologised to the stolen generation.
But that's just a start and plenty needs to be done!

How about in the streets when people get yelled and swored at for being a WOG! How about the racism out there, look at what happend at Cronulla Riots? How about when mosques in Australia, got burnt in fire lit up by neo-nazi or other racist groups. Try getting physically attacked by some people calling themselves 'True Blue Aussies' which I thought were neo-nazis, for simply replying "I don't know" when asked where the taxi stand is? Try travelling within Australia or New Zealand airports and always get treated like a terrorist or criminal? Is this the so called democracy you people are so proud to be associated with? If people have dark coloured hair doesn't mean they're terrorists! Why a person with blonde coloured hair doesn't get treated like a terrorist or criminal? Just because you or mates or family don't get racially abused in Australia, don't think that racism doesn't exist! A non-English speaking Australian always get treated as a second class citizen. Unfortunately it's been even worse for Middle Eastern, Indian Subcontinent and Africans post-9/11.

FYI. The first charter of Human Rights was written by no other than Cyrus the Great, I suggest you read about him. I believe you should have immediate access to bible, look up Book of Job, Book of Esther, Book of Nehemiah, Book of Ezra to read about how tolerant Persian rulers were. Tajik and Persian is an Indo-European language, from Indo-Iranian family of languages. Arabic is a kin of Hebrew and is a semetic language. Pass this on to whoever you know and get them to read and educate themselves. I hope the new prime minister and education minister will boost up education in Australia because it's a disgrace at the moment. I suggest you read www.ethnologue.com and also www.iranchamber.com for Iranian History on Cyrus the Great.

I thought you were an intellectual and trying to write up a descendant research but I guess I was wrong. Instead of responding to those few individuals who said stuff to you, you went overboard by accusing and being offensive to everyone on this forum! You ought to be ashamed of yourself mate! What have I done to you, apart from providing you with links to websites and a few pictures! Now you go and say offensive things against my country!

Anyways education is the best cure for treating racism and red neck behaviours. I recommend you go and educate yourself and get your mates to educate themselves and pray that Minister of Education will do something about education in Australia. Then maybe once Aussies are educated can go and enlighten their British and Yankee kindreds.

My message is that we all are human beings and should treat each other with respect.
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#82 User is offline   Neo Bactra Icon

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 04:46 AM

[quote=Parsistani;7490]Abdali, in Afghanistan there is only one nation that keep fighting no matter against the own tribes/nation or against the other nations, specially against the mongolic population of Afghanistan, the persianized Hazaras. We Persian-Speaker lived for 1000 of years beside alien nations in peace and harmony tough most of them were of wild nature (ancestors of Turks, Hazaras, Mongols, Arghunes...) till 1800 and all of them had different languages, cultures, faithes, costumes .... but there was not only a day where a Tajik nor another person of another nation took a stone and threw it against someone. SInce your ancestors brought Pashtuns to a country which was one of the most modernized and developed countries with a very heavy positive history everything went down. The country began to die. Instead of keepin on art, education, universities, culture, language people began to pray all days 24 hours and than we had a sociel decadence. From the beginning when Pashtuns (Awghans/Afghans) came to our country everything changed. A country which was the proto-typ of europe of modern european cities is today nothing than only stones...and solong Pashtuns live in that country nothing will get change no matter how Persian speaker try to spread their peacefully moderate and educated mind over Awghans. Awghans will allways stay the same dirt that once came, raped, killed, looted (like today) ...., and solving the ''Awghan question'' is much better for all nation and the entire world than fighting for allways against a terroristic and backward nation that keep the world in fear. In these kinds of movements they are very good. Killing, actions against europe, america...GB..Germany, spain... it is not we who want fight but those mf Pkhtuns who have senseless fighting in their vains and gens...they wont learn...Tajiks will never fight without any causes..once we gave the world honour, pride...education, humanism, science...and even a culture (i can count much more if you wish) and today it is us, the Tajik nation that suffer!!!!!!!! NOW STOP TALKING NONSENSE

The problem concerned to the Abdalis is they killed mio. and hundred thousands of children, women, men only to invade and loot india. Ahmad Khan Gay-Dali was not better than Djingis Khan infact much more worser and a pure monster and nowadays his sons, the dirty Awghans, of course concerned to their mentality, call him as Baba (pers. word for ''Papa'' (Father))[/quote]

Brother I am sure you meant "Persianized Pashtons" instead of "Perianized Hazaras". I hear you jan.
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#83 User is offline   Neo Bactra Icon

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 04:54 AM

[quote=rooyintan;7532]Don't always blame the Yanks for everything. Look at the mess in Solomon Islands, East Timor, Fiji and Bougainville Islands, did Aussies clean up mess there? or did they create more mess by interfering in those countries' internal affairs! Maybe it's best stopping being a pathetic sticky beak and mind their own business.

Also in Australia, I can tell you that most people are so uneducated that they can't even place countries on the map and yet always make fun of Yanks for not be able to do that! isn't that an irony. The sad thing is Aussies think that people from Afghanistan, Pakistan and Iran are arabic speaking, think everyone ride a camel, the whole country is vast dry deserts. In fact they don't believe us when we talk about harsh cold winters in our countries, talking about big crowded busy cities with populations of 3 million plus or Tehran with a population of 12 million, check out www.tehran24.com to see how Iran's capital look like.

Human Rights abuses what are you talking about. Look at what happend who the aborigines. Look at the way get treated? How about in the streets when people get yelled and swored at for being a WOG! How about the racism out there, look at what happend at Cronulla Riots? How about when mosques in Australia, got burnt in fire lit up by neo-nazi or other racist groups. Try getting physically attacked by some people calling themselves 'True Blue Aussies' which I thought were neo-nazis, for simply replying "I don't know" when asked where the taxi stand is? Trying travelling within Australia or New Zealand airports and always get treated like a terrorist or criminal? Is this the so called democracy you people are so proud to be associated with?
FYI. The first charter of Human Rights was written by no other than Cyrus the Great, I suggest you read about him. I believe you should have immediate access to bible, look up Book of Job, Book of Esther, Book of Nehemiah, Book of Ezra to read about how tolerant Persian rulers were. Tajik and Persian is an Indo-European language, from Indo-Iranian family of languages. Arabic is a kin of Hebrew and is a semetic language. Pass this on to whoever you know and get them to read and educate themselves. I hope the new prime minister and education minister will boost up education in Australia because it's a disgrace at the moment. I suggest you read www.ethnologue.com and also www.iranchamber.com for Iranian History on Cyrus the Great.

I thought you were an intellectual and trying to write up a descendant research but I guess I was wrong. Instead of responding to those few individuals who said stuff to you, you went overboard by accusing and being offensive to everyone on this forum! You ought to be ashamed of yourself mate! What have I done to you, apart from providing you with links to websites and a few pictures! Now you go and say offensive things against my country!

Anyways education is the best cure for treating racism and red neck behaviours. I recommend you go and educate yourself and get your mates to educate themselves and pray that Minister of Education will do something about education in Australia. Then maybe once Aussies are educated can go and enlighten their British and Yankee kindreds.[/quote]

Peace.
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#84 User is offline   Parsistani Icon

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 12:07 PM

Pashtuns are always defined as Pashtuns even they do not speak Pashtu and as the language representants they always count to Pashtu-Speaker also they do not know only one word. I was serious, i meant Hazaras. Only a very small minority of Pashtuns, maybe 5-10% are persianized, those who live beside Tajiks..like Awghans in europe who adoptet the kind of music, marriage, food, ...from Tajiks. For examples the Tarakhel tribe..a very strong persianized ''Pashtun'' tribe that loves to have fun and enjoy life..without anykind of aggressivity or war unlike the rest of the bunch.
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Posted 16 March 2008 - 12:07 PM

To those that I unjustly offended I apologise I lost my cool. Being an Aussie I do not understand the culture but did not respect the antagonism. To those that helped you did great! I do respect you.

To those others that pushed my buttons constantly, if you so hated this guy Abdalis, why didn't you just say that he was a murderous bastard, and just tell me upfront, "quite frankly using the name Abdalis is like calling yourself Hitler to a Jew". I would have happily changed it to something more politically correct and less offensive. Instead you just went about it all wrong and got me very riled. Try just saying what you feel and assuming that whoever is posting is who they say they are. That way I could have got a lot more info on the Eighteenth Century and Napoleonic Persian armies. And everyone would have been happy.

I think there is a massive cultural gap here and it has left a bad taste in my mouth. In Australia there is racism and sexism and religious intolerance on the sides of the white Australians, Asian Australians, Slavic Australians, Islander Australians and so on. It is in our nature to revile difference. But on the whole we have one of the most multicultural societies in the world and on the whole our various communities suffer the least violence and racial and ethnic vilification in the world. That is fact!!!!!!! Yes our history is filled with some very low points but we are men enough to recognise when as a society we have done wrong and apologise and move on. Can you say the same of your society? Do you have such a diverse multicultural community that lives, on the whole in relative peace and harmony? I hope you can say yes, but its something to think about before you shoot your mouth off!!!

Now how do I unsubscribe? I have no wish to converse with a few good blokes if I must be nagged and critised by what feels like the many.....

Regards he that will no longer sign himself as Abdalis!
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#86 User is offline   Rostam Icon

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 12:30 PM

Oke this are some questions for Abdalis:

1) Do you defend and like...the ethno-fascistic and anti-tajik/persian state ''Afghanistan'' ?
(which is a bufferzone of Britians and Americans).

2) What do you think about the CRIMES the last 300 years commited by the Afghan governments? do you deny it? recognize it? .....
should we (Persians/Tajiks) not...''repair'' those crimes commited against us?

3) Do you think we are all Afghans? Do you also promote this slogan? if so...why you lie?

4) What about the current situation? why is pashtoo forced on Tajiks in so called ''northern Afghanistan'' ?

................
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#87 User is offline   Neo Bactra Icon

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 01:27 PM

Abdalis,

I sincerely apologize for every word in my posts that has offended you. Since we are constantly pestered and sabotaged by those that sympathize with the Taliban cause, those who hate not just our culture but also that of the other civilized nations of the world, we (well, few of us) rushed to gaurd our loved forum against you whom we thought were yet another ill-intentioned intruder. I personally made some hasty judgements, and if you are who you say you are, let me be the first to humbly ask for forgiveness. Our culture teaches justice and coexistene. You have been wronged and asking for your forgiviness is the least that I can do to rectify that. I ask other Tajiks to forgive me as well for having caused this mishap.

Abdalis, you have been gracious in your last post and I admire your frankness. You are most welcome to stay with whichever nick you desire to have.

I wish you best of luck with your writing peice.


[quote=Abdalis;7556]To those that I unjustly offended I apologise I lost my cool. Being an Aussie I do not understand the culture but did not respect the antagonism. To those that helped you did great! I do respect you.

To those others that pushed my buttons constantly, if you so hated this guy Abdalis, why didn't you just say that he was a murderous bastard, and just tell me upfront, "quite frankly using the name Abdalis is like calling yourself Hitler to a Jew". I would have happily changed it to something more politically correct and less offensive. Instead you just went about it all wrong and got me very riled. Try just saying what you feel and assuming that whoever is posting is who they say they are. That way I could have got a lot more info on the Eighteenth Century and Napoleonic Persian armies. And everyone would have been happy.

I think there is a massive cultural gap here and it has left a bad taste in my mouth. In Australia there is racism and sexism and religious intolerance on the sides of the white Australians, Asian Australians, Slavic Australians, Islander Australians and so on. It is in our nature to revile difference. But on the whole we have one of the most multicultural societies in the world and on the whole our various communities suffer the least violence and racial and ethnic vilification in the world. That is fact!!!!!!! Yes our history is filled with some very low points but we are men enough to recognise when as a society we have done wrong and apologise and move on. Can you say the same of your society? Do you have such a diverse multicultural community that lives, on the whole in relative peace and harmony? I hope you can say yes, but its something to think about before you shoot your mouth off!!!

Now how do I unsubscribe? I have no wish to converse with a few good blokes if I must be nagged and critised by what feels like the many.....

Regards he that will no longer sign himself as Abdalis![/quote]
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Posted 16 March 2008 - 03:22 PM

Alright then Neo Bactra, you guys give me a name and I will stay and give it another shot. But keep in mind now that you have got me fired up, I am a Westerner and I think like one. I will not make any apologies about it!!!

I wold prefer to stay away from politics though. I will give you blokes hell if you want a political fight but I work very hard and long hours and I prefer the escape of history and warfare to regional emotional politics. I know you guys are from the region so you should have lots of access to Persian military history.

Mate Rostam! Why don't you just assume I do not know anything about the region because frankly I do not try and watch the news. All media is not about facts but perception.

So I will tell you what I think I know about the questions you ask and you can tell me your side ok. The Taliban are responsible for a very rigid and fundamentalist regime. They are not known for their human rights and religious tolerance. They have a bad track record with womans rights as well.

I do not know Afghan history going back 300 years. All I know is that a few of our boys have been killed over there because of 911 (not getting into that one) European vs Anglo American power and also because the region is a melting pot of violence and internal trouble. Frankly the Americans should have stayed out of the Afghanistan war against the Russians. There would have been no 911, no Al queda, no 1st and second Gulf war (a bit of stretch on the last one) and no Aussie boys being buried ........

I do not know anything about Pashtoo or whatever mate! Nor do I defend any state which praises or supports prejudicial gov't. By that I mean anti freedom of religion, racially prejudicial policy, pretty much non enlightened governance. I don not think that the Brits or americans use or think of Afghanistan as a buffer. A bloody thorn in their side with mounting body bags yes. It has no strategic value, no oil. Its not a buffer againts the wests fear of Iran. Emotion drove the west to seek revenge for wrongs done and got stuck in a war trying to free the poeple from a overbearing and Al Quieda sympathetic governement. To be honest I think the western gov't would much prefer to just get out. Never get in the middle of two other mens dispute they will always turn on you the one in the middle. That is what has happened over there. Thats all I know from where I am looking in the West... Do not get too impassioned now. If you disagree just tell me. If it is completely offensive just tell me and we will agree to disagree and leave the topic.

Now if you want me to stay, choose a non offensive name, I will reregistar with that name and keep the Persian military history coming. Actual orders of Battle would be great! Not just for Nader Shah, any where from 30 years back up to the end of the Napoleonic Wars would be great. If you blokes just do not want me on the forum then say so, but do not push me again I rather get fired up by that side ways stuff. We are all grown ups just say it to my face ok....
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#89 User is offline   Nader Shah Icon

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 10:33 PM

Dear Abdalis,
Admin and/or Gul Agha ye Gerami can change your name to something more neutral ... like "Oz" or "Aussie". Take your pick and I am sure it will happen. I don't want you to go away, you are doing us all a favor by your interest in Nader Shah (my ancestor). Please ignore the few people who reacted to your name, and move on.
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Posted 16 March 2008 - 11:27 PM

Dear Abdalis,

The dispute over your nick seems to be settled. Now you know it was just a misunderstanding. Choose whatever nick you please ('Aussie' sounds more relevant though), ask dear Gul Agha to change it for you and leave the bitterness behind. Let's go on with the topic.
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#91 User is offline   Nader Shah Icon

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Posted 16 March 2008 - 11:44 PM

Darius Jan e Gerami,
Agreed !
[quote=Darius;7596]Dear Abdalis,

The dispute over your nick seems to be settled. Now you know it was just a misunderstanding. Choose whatever nick you please ('Aussie' sounds more relevant though), ask dear Gul Agha to change it for you and leave the bitterness behind. Let's go on with the topic.[/quote]
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Posted 17 March 2008 - 03:37 AM

In 1719 the Afghans had invaded Persia. They deposed the reigning Shah of the Safavid dynasty in 1722. Their ruler, Mahmoud Ghilzai (1699-1725), murdered a large number of Safavid Princes, hacking many of them to death by his own hand. After he had invited the leading citizens of Esfahan to a feast and massacred them there, his own supporters assassinated Mahmoud in 1725. His cousin, Ashraf (1700-1730), took over and married a Safavid princess.

At first, Nader fought with the Afghans against the Ozbegs until they withheld him further payment. In 1727 Nader offered his services to Tamasp II (1704-1740), heir to the Safavid dynasty. Nader started the reconquest of Persia and drove the Afghans out of Khorasan. The Afghans suffered heavy losses, but before they fled Ashraf massacred an additional 3000 citizens of Esfahan. Most of the fleeing Afghans were soon overtaken and killed by Nader's men, while others died in the desert. Ashraf himself was hunted down and murdered.

By 1729 Nader had freed Persia from the Afghans. Tamasp II was crowned Shah, although he was little more than a figurehead. While Nader was putting down a revolt in Khorasan, Tamasp moved against the Turks, losing Georgia and Armenia. Enraged, Nader deposed Tamasp in 1732 and installed Tamasp's infant son, Abbas III (1732-1740), on the throne, naming himself regent. Within two years Nader recaptured the lost territory and extended the Empire at the expense of the Turks and the Russians.

In 1736 Nader evidently felt that his own position had been established so firmly that he no longer needed to hide behind a nominal Safavid Shah and ascended the throne himself. In 1738 he invaded Kandahar, captured Kabul and marched on to India. He seized and sacked Delhi and, after some disturbances, he killed 30000 of its citizens. He plundered the Indian treasures of the Moghal Emperors, taking with him the famous jewel-encrusted Peacock Throne and the Koh-i Noor diamond. In 1740 Nader had Tamasp II and his two infant sons put to death. Then he invaded Transoxania (Central Asia). He resumed war with Turkey in 1743. In addition, he built a navy and conquered Oman.

http://www.iranchamb...s/afsharids.php
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Posted 17 March 2008 - 08:57 AM

[quote=Abdalis;7556]To those that I unjustly offended I apologise I lost my cool. Being an Aussie I do not understand the culture but did not respect the antagonism. To those that helped you did great! I do respect you.

To those others that pushed my buttons constantly, if you so hated this guy Abdalis, why didn't you just say that he was a murderous bastard, and just tell me upfront, "quite frankly using the name Abdalis is like calling yourself Hitler to a Jew". I would have happily changed it to something more politically correct and less offensive. Instead you just went about it all wrong and got me very riled. Try just saying what you feel and assuming that whoever is posting is who they say they are. That way I could have got a lot more info on the Eighteenth Century and Napoleonic Persian armies. And everyone would have been happy.

I think there is a massive cultural gap here and it has left a bad taste in my mouth. In Australia there is racism and sexism and religious intolerance on the sides of the white Australians, Asian Australians, Slavic Australians, Islander Australians and so on. It is in our nature to revile difference. But on the whole we have one of the most multicultural societies in the world and on the whole our various communities suffer the least violence and racial and ethnic vilification in the world. That is fact!!!!!!! Yes our history is filled with some very low points but we are men enough to recognise when as a society we have done wrong and apologise and move on. Can you say the same of your society? Do you have such a diverse multicultural community that lives, on the whole in relative peace and harmony? I hope you can say yes, but its something to think about before you shoot your mouth off!!!

Now how do I unsubscribe? I have no wish to converse with a few good blokes if I must be nagged and critised by what feels like the many.....

Regards he that will no longer sign himself as Abdalis![/quote]

That's the Aussie Spirit Mate!
Mate I wish you were next to me 5 years ago when those blokes attempted to beat me up when I replied "I don't know" when asked where the cab is?
and racially verbally said a lot of offensive things to me, maybe you could have told them that they're not True Blue Aussies and what they were doing is un-Australian, or 4 years ago when I visited a British-educated GP who racially verbally said things to me after he asked me where I was born and I said Iran!

Iran is a peaceful and harmonious country, yes well many politicians everywhere(I mean in any country) are not good people.

Politicians aside, Ordinary Iranians have not done anything to be treated like a terrorist or criminal in western countries. In fact if you get to know Iranians, majority of Iranians are highly skilled professionals who have jobs like owners of firms, doctors, engineers, dentists, professors, accountants, IT professionals, etc. Compare Iranians with other immigrants and you'll see the difference in terms of education. Just locations where Iranians live could give you an indication
about their education background: Beverly Hills in California, Bay Area in San Fransisco, North Sydney, Double Bay, Chatswood, other North Shore areas of Sydney, Templestow, Doncaster in Melbourne. Yes the politicians still give orders to their border security guards to always give Iranians a hard time, like wasting their time so they miss their flights, or have their bags always checked and be treated like a criminal or terrorist, get questioned for hours for whether carrying explosives, guns, etc... in America it's even worse because they blind fold Iranians and take their fingerprints!

Anyways welcome to the forum.
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#94 User is offline   Kambiz Icon

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Posted 17 March 2008 - 11:45 AM

Rooyintan-e gerami,

The raw is over. Now we are waiting for Abdalis to get back presumably with a new nick and resume the topic the thread has been dedicated to. The issue of Aussies I suppose has the least relevance with Nader Shah.
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#95 User is offline   Aussie Icon

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Posted 29 March 2008 - 02:36 AM

Hey Guys,

I finally got a name change and have been doing some reading in my spare time on the Nader Shah reign in Persia. I guess the majority of the questions may seem silly, in as much as they are lingually relevant.

Ok here goes.....

1. In my reading there are in the Persian Guard or Nader Shah's elite forces 10000 Gholams? Are these the same as Gulams in an Ottoman force? Armed mostly with hand weapons, fairly heavily armoured infantry or are they different? They are referred to as cavalry but I hear no more mention of them and its as if they do not exist except as a paper strength....

2. Are Zanburuks all light artillery or are they only camel mounted artillery? If they are only camel mounted guns then what are the names for light and heavy artillery. As I have not found any mention of the names for these guns, just Zanburuks.

3. Min Bashi is an Ottoman term for a 1000 men or Ortas. Did the Persians have their own word for an Ortas, Large Battalion/Regiment of 1000 men. Most of the organization of the Persian Jazayerchis are in units of 500 or 1000 men and the name Min Bashi or Min Bash is used to refer to the larger formations...

4. The Persian soldiers are referred to as Qezelbash or red hats because they had red hats as part of the uniform. Is this a derogatory term for Persian soldiers of the period or is it their own name?

5. What is the name for all the allied or mercenary formations of feudal levies in the army. The Persians had Indians, Arabs, Uzbeks, Kurds, Turkomen, Afghans (numerous tribes) Armenians, Georgians etc Were they also called Qezelbash or did they have a term in the Persian language like Qezelbash for Feudal troops, or allied/mercenary troops or tribal groups? Most of the time these various tribes for want of a better term are just referred to by their ethnic heritage not as anything other....

6. In my readings I have come across an English term for various elements of the Persian Guard and Nader Shah's personal boryguard cavalry.
The terms are " Sons of the Eldars" and "Sons of the Gentlemen" What do these phrases mean in Persian? Were they all noble cavalry or chieftain sons cavalry? Not sure what to make of them, except they usually performed extremely well against Naders enemies. Well lets face it 20 major battles in his career and only one loss, although admittedly it was a whopper. But he came back the next year and smashed the old Ottoman Veteran General.... Still 19-1 win/loss stats is pretty good!

Ok well there are a lot of questions there and I am not sure all of them can be answered but I appreciate the effort. Cheers! Did someone mention soccer on the forum! A great game of skill and strategy, no doubt! :)
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#96 User is offline   arshak Icon

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Posted 29 March 2008 - 08:47 AM

For ethnicity of Nader Shah Afshar's army please see the information
I had provided in this thread's entry on Page 6:
http://tajikam.com/f...p?t=1842&page=6

A1.Gholams/Ghulams: these were Armenians, Georgians, Indians, Circassian,
Dagistani and Lezgians.
BTW. Ottomans didn't use the term Ghulam but used yeni cheri. Their yenicheri composed of Greeks, Serbians, Macedonians, Bosnians, Albanians, Bulgarians, Armenians, Assyrians, Egyptians and other Arabs(eg. Syrians).

A2.Zanburak: As far as I know in Persian this is a music instrument but in military terms I never heard of such term, probably it's something like Kamikaze... as Zanbur means Bee in Persian.
Maybe a cavalry unit that attacked and then retreated then attacked again and retreat..etc.


A3.1000 and 500 Divisions: In Mongol period these were called Tumen, in Nader Shah's time I'm not sure about such formation but a formation of thousand in Persian is Hezar/Hazara. Also a Hang is a military formation of 500.

A4.Qizilbash:
As for Kizilbash/Qizilbash there is a link to pages about it(on thread's entery on page6). But brief explanation in Safavid period, Kizilbash were 7 Turkic tribes Afshar, Qajar, Shamlu, Ustajlu, Dhulqadrlu, Rumlu, Takkalu and yes these 7 tribes wore Red Hats. In Turkish Kizil means Red and bash means Head.
In Nader Shah's period Kizilbash no longer referred to only these 7 tribes but it referred to all tribes and native ethnic groups of modern Iran. For example Zand, Zafaranlu, Khozaima, Hazara, Gerayeli, Jalayer, Qaraei, Bayat etc were all referred to as Kizilbash.

A5.Ethnicity again refer to page 6 of this thread, my info there named most of the tribes that made up Nader Shah's military.

A6.Terms: well I'm not sure about those specific terms but I can give you some terms I know:

Shah or Shahanshah- title of a Persian emperor.
Shahzadeh - A royal Prince.
Mirza - an honorary title(a post-fix) for a royal Prince. eg. Shahzadeh Reza Qoli Mirza Afshar
Sadr-e-Azam - Vizier.
Nayeb-os-Saltaneh - (1)Vizier (2)Representative of the Shah (3)Crown Prince.
Khazanehdar - Treasurer
Peyk - Messenger
Mollabashi or Mullahbashi - Chief Mullah
Beglarbeg or Vali or Hakem- a ruler of a state, ie.a governor, equivalent to Ottoman term of Pasha.
Bozorgan - nobility and elders of the tribes.
Khan or Beyk or Bek or Beg - chief of a tribe or clan. (2)also used as honorary title for sons of the chiefs.
Khanzadeh or Beykzadeh - Son of Chief of a tribe.
Aghazadeh - Son of a nobleman or clergy(yep ie. Mullah)
Sepahsalar or Sipahsalar - chief military commander
Sardar - military commander title equivalent to a General
Sarbaz - soldier
Savaran or Sepahi - Cavalry.
Piyadeh - Infantry.
Tofangchi or Tufangchi - Musketman.
Toopchi or Tupchi - Canonman.

I hope this information has been helpful.
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#97 User is offline   Parsistani Icon

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Posted 29 March 2008 - 08:51 AM

Among the Kizilbash, Turcoman tribes from Eastern Anatolia and Azerbaijan who had helped Shah Ismail I defeat the Aq Qoyunlu tribe were by far the most important - in number and influence. Therefore the name Kizilbash is sometimes only applied to them.[6] Some of these greater Turcoman tribes were subdivided into as many as eight or nine clans and included the:

* Ust?djlu
* Rumlu
* Sh?mlu (the most powerful clan during the reign of Shah Ismail I.)
* Dulghadir (Arabic: Dhu 'l-Kadar)
* Afsh?r
* Q?j?r
* Takkalu

Other tribes, such as Turkman, Bah?rlu, Wars?k, or Bay?t were occasionally listed among these "seven great uymaqs". Some of these names consist of a place-name with addition of the Turkish suffix -lu, such as Sh?mlu or Bah?rlu. Other names are those of old Oghuz tribes such as Afsh?r, Dulghadir, or Bay?t, as mentioned by the medieval Uyghur historian Mahmoud Al-K?shghar?. The origin of the name Ust?djlu, however, is unknown and probably indicates a non-Turkic origin of the tribe.

The non-Turkic or non-Turkish-speaking Iranian tribes among the Kizilbash were called T?jiks by the Turcomans and included:[6][7]

* T?lish
* Si?h-Kuh (Kar?dja-Dagh)
* Lur tribes (for example the Zand)
* certain Kurdish tribes
* certain Zazaish tribes
* certain Persian families and clans

The rivalry between the Turkic clans and Persian nobles was a major problem in the Safavid kingdom and caused much trouble. As V. Minorsky put it, friction between these two groups was inevitable, because the Turcomans "were no party to the national Persian tradition". Shah Ismail tried to solve the problem by appointing Persian wakils as commanders of Kizilbash tribes. However, the Turcomans considered this an insult and brought about the death of 3 of the 5 Persians appointed to this office - an act, that later lead to the deprivation of the Turcomans by Shah Abbas I.[8]

And more http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qizilbash
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Posted 01 April 2008 - 09:33 AM

Thanks Parsistani and Rooyintan for your continued help. I have a few more questions that leap from the responses to date..

1. Regarding the names for all the various clans is their a word for the levy or feudal recruitment. The Ottomans called their levies Seyemeny. These were called out from the various tribes and ethnic groups around the Empire to fight for the Vizier or Pasha when needed. From inference in my readings and I may well be wrong on this the various tribes in Emperor Nader's army were expected to raise so many warriors for service, not quite in the same fashion as the Ottomans because the Persians had a better regulated concept of warfare but still similar. Would this be correct? If so the various tribes would be referred to as levies or fuedal troops / recruits. I am looking for terminology that would define the various groups that way....

2. So if there were cavalry recruited from the sons of nobles they would be called " AghaSavaran" I know I am ballsing up the language but I am trying to convey what words I am looking for, sorry for being so clumsy with it!

3. So "BeykzaderSavaran" would mean something like Sons of Chiefs Cavalry? Again sorry for being clumsy with the language...

4. So a cannon is a "tup" as chi I guess means man.

A2.Zanburak: As far as I know in Persian this is a music instrument but in military terms I never heard of such term, probably it's something like Kamikaze... as Zanbur means Bee in Persian.
Maybe a cavalry unit that attacked and then retreated then attacked again and retreat..etc
.

Not far off Rooyintan, I believe they were 3/4 to 2 pounder guns mounted on Camels from what I can tell. So the effect is much like a small cannon or perhaps a bee cannon you might say...... Very interesting that the word Zanbur is Persian for bee. That would make sense then. They were only escort light Artillery as far as I know.

Cheers! :)
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#99 User is offline   arshak Icon

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Posted 01 April 2008 - 10:37 AM

[quote=Aussie;8094]Thanks Parsistani and Rooyintan for your continued help. I have a few more questions that leap from the responses to date..

1. Regarding the names for all the various clans is their a word for the levy or feudal recruitment. The Ottomans called their levies Seyemeny. These were called out from the various tribes and ethnic groups around the Empire to fight for the Vizier or Pasha when needed. From inference in my readings and I may well be wrong on this the various tribes in Emperor Nader's army were expected to raise so many warriors for service, not quite in the same fashion as the Ottomans because the Persians had a better regulated concept of warfare but still similar. Would this be correct? If so the various tribes would be referred to as levies or fuedal troops / recruits. I am looking for terminology that would define the various groups that way....

2. So if there were cavalry recruited from the sons of nobles they would be called " AghaSavaran" I know I am ballsing up the language but I am trying to convey what words I am looking for, sorry for being so clumsy with it!

3. So "BeykzaderSavaran" would mean something like Sons of Chiefs Cavalry? Again sorry for being clumsy with the language...

4. So a cannon is a "tup" as chi I guess means man.

A2.Zanburak: As far as I know in Persian this is a music instrument but in military terms I never heard of such term, probably it's something like Kamikaze... as Zanbur means Bee in Persian.
Maybe a cavalry unit that attacked and then retreated then attacked again and retreat..etc
.

Not far off Rooyintan, I believe they were 3/4 to 2 pounder guns mounted on Camels from what I can tell. So the effect is much like a small cannon or perhaps a bee cannon you might say...... Very interesting that the word Zanbur is Persian for bee. That would make sense then. They were only escort light Artillery as far as I know.

Cheers! :) [/quote]

A1. No Persians didn't use such term as levies. In time of Nader, simply two groups: 1)Qezelbash/Kizilbash: for muslim native Iranian troops(of all Turkic-Aryan ethnic groups) 2)Gholams: for non-Muslims. Piyadeh(ie. Infantry) were recruited from peasants and farmers. Savaran(ie. Cavalry) were professional warriors recruited from tribal nobility. Every tribal group wore their traditional cloth, there were no uniforms.

A2 & A3. In persian they don't name units with those specific names. When referring to cavalry just say Savaran or Sepahi. When want to specify just say Bozorgan(nobles/elders) or Khanan(Khans) or Sardaran(commanders).

A4.You're on the dot! Chi is for any occupation, eg. Postchi is Postman, Maadanchi is Miner, Tupchi is therefore Canonman :)

Interesting about Zanburak :-)

Look at this website(brief description of Nader Shah's units, some pics of Afshar,Zand,Kizilbash and Zanburakchi.
http://www.twcenter....d.php?p=2714135
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Posted 05 April 2008 - 07:15 AM

Thanks Rooyintan,

Mate that last email of yours was extremely helpful. And the amount of colour plates etc. You sure know how to dig up stuff on the net. Thanks for the awesome help and assistance in this enterprise. :)
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