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What alphabet do you perfer for Persian Rate Topic: -----

Poll: What alphabet do you perfer for Persian? (44 member(s) have cast votes)

What alphabet do you perfer for Persian?

  1. Arabic (17 votes [38.64%])

    Percentage of vote: 38.64%

  2. Latin (8 votes [18.18%])

    Percentage of vote: 18.18%

  3. Cyrillic (3 votes [6.82%])

    Percentage of vote: 6.82%

  4. Arabic (modified) (11 votes [25.00%])

    Percentage of vote: 25.00%

  5. other (5 votes [11.36%])

    Percentage of vote: 11.36%

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#61 User is offline   PORS Icon

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Posted 10 July 2008 - 07:37 PM

If I start? That's interesting... hahahaha :rolleyes: I thought it would be better if you start because you have got good background and rich experience in Parsi :D

I wish I was pluent in my Parsi, but anyways "Never Give UP!" :)



Pors.

[QUOTE=Rika Khana;11242]Pors jan, I think i gave my thoughts to that idea. it is excellent and great. i am sure you'll have the support of all of us if you start it.[/QUOTE]
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#62 User is offline   Sohrab Icon

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Posted 10 July 2008 - 07:47 PM

[QUOTE=PORS;11244]If I start? That's interesting... hahahaha :rolleyes: I thought it would be better if you start because you have got good background and rich experience in Parsi :D

I wish I was pluent in my Parsi, but anyways "Never Give UP!" :)



Pors.[/QUOTE]

Pors jan, You are PLUENT in parsi. you'll make a good teacher becaue you got good knowledge of cyrillic, and also persian alphabet.

But anyways, i am not in favour of one man band, we all have to take part in it.
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#63 User is offline   Ahhangar Icon

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Posted 10 July 2008 - 11:00 PM

[QUOTE=Rika Khana;11227]I am totally in your side. but we have to consider others too. for example it Tajikistan some people resist the perso arabic alphabet while in iran and afghanistan we know nothing about cyrillic. to make more contacts with each other, we have to come up with a solution and one of them is latin. there is also another solution, in Tajikisan they keep cyrillic and also learn persian alphabet at schools.[/QUOTE]


The policy in Tajikistan should be this:

Change to a Latin based script in place of Cyrillic. This will mean that the texts will be readable to a much wider population of the world that is familiar with the Latin based script, especially us in Afghanistan and Iran. Also it will be good for us in Afghanistan and Iran in that it will be refreshing to be exposed to secular concepts.

It will also ensure that the negative connotations of the Arabic alphabet are not re-imposed upon Tajkistan. There are many other advantages to Latin over Cyrillic. Changing to Latin from Cyrillic is far more likely than Afghanistan or Iran where the Arabic based script holds sway. And I think we should not change it in Afghanistan either.

Teach the children at school to recognize and read the Persian based on the Arabic alphabet. This will mean that the young of the Tajikistan will be able to read - maybe not like poets - the Arabic based scripts - written in Iran and Afghanistan.

The best combination is this to be able read both in Latin and Arabic based alphabets - this would make the reading of the Arabic based script - especially the poetry much easier - something which requires 9 + years of dedicated learning to master properly. The Latin equivalent will help to make it really easy - and not make the works of Rumi Hafez and Saadi only fully accessible to a minor elite of dedicated scholars. It will infact increase the accessibility of such works amongst our populations and their sense of heritage and commonness. Keeping the Arabic based script will mean that we get to not loose the sense of heritage attached to it or the beautiful calligraphy.

In Turkey - before the conversion to latin - only very few Turks were able to fully appreciate the texts written in the Arabic based script fully - but afterwards it many more Turks learnt about their literary treasures. It also made it easier for the non Turks to learn Turkish - and to Turkify the nation that much more effectively.

Ahhangar
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#64 User is offline   Nader Shah Icon

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Posted 11 July 2008 - 05:40 AM

Dear Ahangar and others,

Yes it sounds all very nice , but 70 million people won't switch to Latin, with or without Islamic republic. I am not a supporter of Arabic or Perso-Arabic, but really it is not practical and the Unipers people are fooling you.

My main reason for wanting to keep the Perso-Arabic script is that we can all read the same text, yet pronounce it with our Tehrani, or Tajikistani, or Kabuli accent. With Latin script it will be much harder to understand each other, since all the vowels change.

So, as the Chinese use on script for mandarin and cantonese - they all read the same text even though the phonetic transcription is totally different (more like English and Greek languages), they can all read the same text.

Arabic script - because it does not require the wovels to be shown explicitly only keeps the essential information: the consonants, and leaves you free to screw around with the vowels as you like (Tehrani or otherwise) ... and when you read the text, just use your imagination with the vowels.

In fact, it is a form of data compression as we would understand it today. Don't estimate the Arabic script, as it shares roots with all Semitic scripts, and Latin is derived from Semitic scripts.

CONCLUSION: Arabic script - not quite the way PORS uses it ;) but in its standard notation - will allow us to understand each other uniformly whether in Iran, Tajikistan, or Afghanistan. We read exactly the same Arabic letters (consonants) but pronounce the vowels the way we like.

I trouble reading Tajikistani Persian in Latin or Cyrillic scripts, because so many of the vowels are different. I vote Arab in this sole exceptional case as their script erases all regional differences :D
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#65 User is offline   Nader Shah Icon

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Posted 11 July 2008 - 06:36 AM

Darius jan, I am with you :) I am no pro-Arab, and neither are you as a Zoroastrian. But we know that the Arabic script erases differences and makes us all want to read it, because it is written the same way - as it was written by Rudaki - for all of us, and we can pronounce it any way we like :)
[QUOTE=Darius;11196]Well people who know both Persian and Cyrillic scripts (the 'Professor' does) are well aware of its utter incompatability with our language. First of all, by defining all vowels in writing it has officially torn us apart from other dialects of our language. That's the main reason they don't want us to re-embrace the Persian script, cuz it will automatically return us to the Persophone sphere. Secondly, Cyrillic characters do not represent Persian sounds properly. For example, the word 'dorud' is written as 'durud', while we know that the first vowel is shorter than the second one. The words 'binaa' (who can see) and 'benaa' or 'banaa' (building) have a single form: bino, whereas in the former the 'i' is longer and in the latter it's shorter. But nothing indicates it in writing. As a result, some 'poets' in Central Asia rhyme 'benaa' (building) with 'Sinaa' (Avicenna), cuz they are written as 'bino' and 'Sino'.

The Russian vowel 'O' used instead of 'aa' has distorted our pronunciation and made it rounder than it's supposed to be.

By and large, Cyrillic is not for Persian and it is one of the reasons Tajiks can't speak their language fluently now. Actually the absence of most of the vowels in the Persian script is one of its advantages since any Persian can read the same word in his/her own accent/dialect.

As for the 'Professor', we know each other very well and had a long quarrel for several years. Thus, whatever I said about him was true but based on my personal view that could not be unbiased.[/QUOTE]
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#66 User is offline   PORS Icon

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Posted 11 July 2008 - 06:39 AM

Maybe I am not being able to picture the whole scene, but honestly I don't see any point in changing to Latin. Because everybody learns english and that's basically latin. No need to change whole thing to latin and have whole bunch of herd. Although, I don't think Persian script which is based on arabic is good as well, at least it gives us an access to great works of our great thinkers and fosters our relations with Iran and modern Afghanistan. Persian based solely on arabic is no good as well, because of religious intentions of clergies all around. Salafis and movements to that nature is best (worst I mean) example. But, maybe UniPers or something to that nature might work.


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#67 User is offline   Sohrab Icon

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Posted 11 July 2008 - 06:47 AM

[QUOTE=Nader Shah;11287]Darius jan, I am with you :) I am no pro-Arab, and neither are you as a Zoroastrian. But we know that the Arabic script erases differences and makes us all want to read it, because it is written the same way - as it was written by Rudaki - for all of us, and we can pronounce it any way we like :) [/QUOTE]

That is quiet right. this is the reason when i read iranian books, i never feel to have read something which was written by someone who has Tehrani accent. I feel it has Kabuli accent(the writter). So it is good and give us much wider option and openness. as i mentioned before i always struggle to read farsi through latin alphabet. but we have to keep in mind that we gota do something to overcome this problem. the problem is basically in Tajikistan, how to tackle this, we need to consider all sides,options and posibilities that gives us what we want. but changing the perso arabic in afghanistan and iran is not only wise, but also imposible.
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#68 User is offline   PORS Icon

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Posted 11 July 2008 - 06:47 AM

I also agree that Parsi should be adopted in Tajikistan the same way it is in Iran, and Afghanistan today. Having major accents like gooishe Irani, gooishe Dari ya gooishe Tajiki will make Parsi more beautiful and colorful.
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#69 User is offline   Ahhangar Icon

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Posted 11 July 2008 - 06:51 AM

[QUOTE=Nader Shah;11267]Dear Ahangar and others,

Yes it sounds all very nice , but 70 million people won't switch to Latin, with or without Islamic republic. I am not a supporter of Arabic or Perso-Arabic, but really it is not practical and the Unipers people are fooling you.

My main reason for wanting to keep the Perso-Arabic script is that we can all read the same text, yet pronounce it with our Tehrani, or Tajikistani, or Kabuli accent. With Latin script it will be much harder to understand each other, since all the vowels change.

So, as the Chinese use on script for mandarin and cantonese - they all read the same text even though the phonetic transcription is totally different (more like English and Greek languages), they can all read the same text.

Arabic script - because it does not require the wovels to be shown explicitly only keeps the essential information: the consonants, and leaves you free to screw around with the vowels as you like (Tehrani or otherwise) ... and when you read the text, just use your imagination with the vowels.

In fact, it is a form of data compression as we would understand it today. Don't estimate the Arabic script, as it shares roots with all Semitic scripts, and Latin is derived from Semitic scripts.

CONCLUSION: Arabic script - not quite the way PORS uses it ;) but in its standard notation - will allow us to understand each other uniformly whether in Iran, Tajikistan, or Afghanistan. We read exactly the same Arabic letters (consonants) but pronounce the vowels the way we like.

I trouble reading Tajikistani Persian in Latin or Cyrillic scripts, because so many of the vowels are different. I vote Arab in this sole exceptional case as their script erases all regional differences :D [/QUOTE]

Dear Nader Shah,

I do not agree with the intentions of the Unipers creators to completely get rid of the Arabic based script. It is just too radical.

So in no way do I propose or have I proposed in the above that the 70 million people of Iran eject Arabic based script in favor latin. I simply am for the Tajikistan adopting Latin in place Cyrillic - then it will be accessible to all of us.

Regarding the different regional accents - well at one time Parsi -e- Dari as in the Parsi used in the royal courts was considered to be the same no matter where in the Persian speaking world.

Adopting a Latin based script with vowels matching that Royal Persian could be a way to resolve the issue of which accent shall the Latin script be based on. It does not mean that we will have to loose our regional accents.

I once saw a video of the coronation of Reza Shah with Royal announcements - and it struck me at how clear and pure the accent was - very close to the classical Persian we are used to when listening to well versed reciters of Parsi poems.

After all the poems of Rumi Hafez Saadi and he other great can only really be appreciated and read properly in the Parsi e Dari pronunciations - as that is what they were written in. Although one can still get something from the poetry - it is still the Parsi e Dari that gives it real life.

Parsi e Dari is not the same as Parsi e Kabuli, although it is closer to Parsi e Kabuli than to Parsi e Tehrani. Parsi e Balkh is said to be the closest to proper Parsi e Dari.

There are many problems with the Arabic based script - in fact it is may have played a role in the creating extra distance between us since the vowles were standardized.

Ahhangar
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#70 User is offline   PORS Icon

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Posted 11 July 2008 - 06:57 AM

Ahhangar-e GERAMI,

May I ask you one question? Do you know how read and write in Cyrillic? If you don't wish to answer, that's okay. I totally understand. Thanks in advance.




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#71 User is offline   Ahhangar Icon

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Posted 11 July 2008 - 07:10 AM

[QUOTE=PORS;11288]Maybe I am not being able to picture the whole scene, but honestly I don't see any point in changing to Latin. Because everybody learns english and that's basically latin. No need to change whole thing to latin and have whole bunch of herd. Although, I don't think Persian script which is based on arabic is good as well, at least it gives us an access to great works of our great thinkers and fosters our relations with Iran and modern Afghanistan. Persian based solely on arabic is no good as well, because of religious intentions of clergies all around. Salafis and movements to that nature is best (worst I mean) example. But, maybe UniPers or something to that nature might work.


Pors.[/QUOTE]


Phonetic Latin is great - it has many advantages over Cyrillic.

Cyrillic is not as agile and dynamic as phonetic Latin and so you will not be forced to make mispronunciations that are made currently due to the rigid nature of Cyrillic. Darius mentioned a few examples in one of his posts.

Also Latin is international and will mean that not only us in Afghanistan and Iran will be able to read it and understand - but complete foreigners will also be able to find it easier to learn the language. So it will bring us closer together and increase the influence of Tajikistan in Afghanistan and Iran.

In addition to adopting Latin - recognizing and reading Arabic alphabet based Persian script should be taught to children in Tajikistan - then they will be able to access texts written in Afghanistan and Iran easier.

All in all it would result in the removal of the script barriers that currently exist between us and an increase in publications.

Ahhangar
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#72 User is offline   Ahhangar Icon

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Posted 11 July 2008 - 07:17 AM

[QUOTE=PORS;11295]Ahhangar-e GERAMI,

May I ask you one question? Do you know how read and write in Cyrillic? If you don't wish to answer, that's okay. I totally understand. Thanks in advance.
Pors.[/QUOTE]

No I do not know - it has never been taught to me. IF you are asking me that because you want to know what is my basis for opposing Cyrillic - the answer is that in my opinion Cyrillic is a symbol of Russification and foreign domination - and that in the current world it is no longer needed - and Latin would do the job of Cyrillic just as well if not much better and Latin is international and not just associated with the West.

Darius has pointed out some of the weakness of Cyrillic.

Also - the populations of Afghanistan and Iran would be able to read the Latin based script of Tajikistan - instead of just ignoring all current Tajikistani literature.

Ahhangar
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#73 User is offline   PORS Icon

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Posted 11 July 2008 - 07:19 AM

Ahhangar-jan,

Thanks for the prompt reply. But don't you think by overcoming barrier, to leave Cyrillic, it, stepping into Latin, will actually further complicates the ties? And what about future publications and development of Latin in Tajikistan? Wouldn't it make it complex for our brothers from Iran and Afghanistan to communicate?

And one more final question: "Why not Parsi in TJ?"


Thanks,




Pors.

[QUOTE=Ahhangar;11297]Phonetic Latin is great - it has many advantages over Cyrillic.

Cyrillic is not as agile and dynamic as phonetic Latin and so you will not be forced to make mispronunciations that are made currently due to the rigid nature of Cyrillic. Darius mentioned a few examples in one of his posts.

Also Latin is international and will mean that not only us in Afghanistan and Iran will be able to read it and understand - but complete foreigners will also be able to find it easier to learn the language. So it will bring us closer together and increase the influence of Tajikistan in Afghanistan and Iran.

In addition to adopting Latin - recognizing and reading Arabic alphabet based Persian script should be taught to children in Tajikistan - then they will be able to access texts written in Afghanistan and Iran easier.

All in all it would result in the removal of the script barriers that currently exist between us and an increase in publications.

Ahhangar[/QUOTE]
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#74 User is offline   PORS Icon

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Posted 11 July 2008 - 07:23 AM

Thanks. Just wanted to know to what extend you are actually aware of Cyrillic other than having bias or prejudices about it. I value your thoughts and suggestions. :)

[QUOTE=Ahhangar;11298]No I do not know - it has never been taught to me. IF you are asking me that because you want to know what is my basis for opposing Cyrillic - the answer is that in my opinion Cyrillic is a symbol of Russification and foreign domination - and that in the current world it is no longer needed - and Latin would do the job of Cyrillic just as well if not much better and Latin is international and not just associated with the West.

Darius has pointed out some of the weakness of Cyrillic.

Also - the populations of Afghanistan and Iran would be able to read the Latin based script of Tajikistan - instead of just ignoring all current Tajikistani literature.

Ahhangar[/QUOTE]
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#75 User is offline   Ahhangar Icon

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Posted 11 July 2008 - 07:30 AM

[QUOTE=PORS;11300]Thanks. Just wanted to know to what extend you are actually aware of Cyrillic other than having bias or prejudices about it. I value your thoughts and suggestions. :) [/QUOTE]

Yes - I am biased against it. But there are compelling reasons to change it other than the purely symbolic distancing from Russian influence - like the lack of agility of Cyrillic in differentiating between long and short vowels and so on - and also it would make the texts written in Tajikistan more accessible to us in Afghanistan and Iran.
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Posted 11 July 2008 - 07:32 AM

Don't you think Parsi can do whole lot better job than Cyrillic or Latin?

[QUOTE=Ahhangar;11302]Yes - I am biased against it. But there are compelling reasons to change it other than the purely symbolic distancing from Russian influence - like the lack of agility of Cyrillic in differentiating between long and short vowels and so on - and also it would make the texts written in Tajikistan more accessible to us in Afghanistan and Iran.[/QUOTE]
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#77 User is offline   Sohrab Icon

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Posted 11 July 2008 - 07:33 AM

[QUOTE=PORS;11303]Don't you think Parsi can do whole lot better job than Cyrillic or Latin?[/QUOTE]

Dear Pors, Parsi is good, but there are alot of people who are not ready to accept it in Tajikistan, this is the main reason seeking latin as an option.
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Posted 11 July 2008 - 07:34 AM

I wholeheartedly understand you Ahhangar-jan,

I appreciate your honest and straightforward answers especially when it comes to having bias and/or prejudices.

Pors.

[QUOTE=Ahhangar;11302]Yes - I am biased against it. But there are compelling reasons to change it other than the purely symbolic distancing from Russian influence - like the lack of agility of Cyrillic in differentiating between long and short vowels and so on - and also it would make the texts written in Tajikistan more accessible to us in Afghanistan and Iran.[/QUOTE]
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Posted 11 July 2008 - 07:39 AM

Dear RK-jan,

Do you think people will welcome Latin? Why do you think so? I comprehend that promoting Parsi is not going to be easy in TJ, especially with its 74 year soviet history. But seeking other ways to adopt another script just because we do not put sufficient efforts and/or care to raise people's admiration toward Parsi, is not wise.

[QUOTE=Rika Khana;11304]Dear Pors, Parsi is good, but there are alot of people who are not ready to accept it in Tajikistan, this is the main reason seeking latin as an option.[/QUOTE]
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Posted 11 July 2008 - 07:43 AM

Why don't we spend some time to prepare people and raise their self-awareness about Parsi? I think it would be a lot beneficial if we could spend all those times about promoting Parsi in TJ, rather than pursing other ways to change completely to another script. Please, share your comments on that. Thanks.



Pors.

[QUOTE=Rika Khana;11304]Dear Pors, Parsi is good, but there are alot of people who are not ready to accept it in Tajikistan, this is the main reason seeking latin as an option.[/QUOTE]
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