What alphabet do you perfer for Persian (View original topic)



Gul agha

Posted 27 February 2008 - 01:31 AM

What alphabet do you perfer for the Persian Language if you had a choice to change it.

Gul agha

Posted 27 February 2008 - 01:52 AM


When the Latin letters adorned the new alphabet
Soon the demand became slow for the Arab alphabet

In the scientific era the new alphabet is like a plane
The Arabic alphabet is like a weak donkey in pain

Whoever learned the old alphabet in school
Remained ignorant and suffered like a fool

So easy is learning this new alphabet
That one can become in three weeks literate

The Arabic alphabet is hard to discern
It takes at least three precious years to learn

For a single sound it has several letters
But many sounds are around with no letters

The easiness of Latin one can judge by sight
When it is written from left instead of right

Each letter has a single form to describe
It is easier also for the person to scribe

Latin alphabet makes it impossible for Kard to become Kurd
or kisht as kusht, sayr as sir, dawr as dur, and mard as murd.

The arabic word aqil(wiseman) is like ghafil(ignorant), a dud
It does not distinguish also between the rose and mud

I and u and o have each no letter
Nor can a and e find themselves any better

For the z sound forms are suited to four
Hardships for non-Arabs more than before

For the sound of s you can have forms thrice
Pupils are like the cat, the forms are like the mice

Two letters for t, h and ayn each
Mastery for children is out of reach

Its poor technique has the world in puzzle
Order and reason never reached this muddle

While the worst person in the world is a tsarist officer
In cruelty abd atrocity no one can make him look better

Though tsarist princes are cruel and base
In infamy and harm the Arabic alphabet can win the race

We are joyful today when our luck turned good
And the Arab alphabet was kicked out for good.

A poem by Abdukwahid Munzim (Tajik Poet from Tajikistan)

Kambiz

Posted 27 February 2008 - 02:28 AM

LOL. That was interesting. Did you translate it yourself?
Monzem (Munzim) had been ordered by the Soviets to write this poem prior to the alphabet change in 1929. They wanted to uproot whatever Persian and Muslin in the country. It didn't take longer than 10 years to realize that Latin was not convenient enough either. Because Iranians and Afghans could understand it easily. That's why they decided to Russify it in 1939.

[quote=Gul agha;6449]
When the Latin letters adorned the new alphabet
Soon the demand became slow for the Arab alphabet

In the scientific era the new alphabet is like a plane
The Arabic alphabet is like a weak donkey in pain

Whoever learned the old alphabet in school
Remained ignorant and suffered like a fool

So easy is learning this new alphabet
That one can become in three weeks literate

The Arabic alphabet is hard to discern
It takes at least three precious years to learn

For a single sound it has several letters
But many sounds are around with no letters

The easiness of Latin one can judge by sight
When it is written from left instead of right

Each letter has a single form to describe
It is easier also for the person to scribe

Latin alphabet makes it impossible for Kard to become Kurd
or kisht as kusht, sayr as sir, dawr as dur, and mard as murd.

The arabic word aqil(wiseman) is like ghafil(ignorant), a dud
It does not distinguish also between the rose and mud

I and u and o have each no letter
Nor can a and e find themselves any better

For the z sound forms are suited to four
Hardships for non-Arabs more than before

For the sound of s you can have forms thrice
Pupils are like the cat, the forms are like the mice

Two letters for t, h and ayn each
Mastery for children is out of reach

Its poor technique has the world in puzzle
Order and reason never reached this muddle

While the worst person in the world is a tsarist officer
In cruelty abd atrocity no one can make him look better

Though tsarist princes are cruel and base
In infamy and harm the Arabic alphabet can win the race

We are joyful today when our luck turned good
And the Arab alphabet was kicked out for good.

A poem from Abdukwahid Munzim (Tajik Poet from Tajikistan)[/quote]

Tehran

Posted 27 February 2008 - 02:32 AM

we created the Nast'alliq script and we must use it for our language. if we change our script, we would lose our calligraphy

Kambiz

Posted 27 February 2008 - 02:39 AM

[quote=Tehran;6454]we created the Nast'alliq script and we must use it for our language. if we change our script, we would lose our calligraphy[/quote]

And not only. Hundreds of thousands of precious books will vanish as well.

Gul agha

Posted 27 February 2008 - 03:06 AM

I found this poem in Mujaleh Paiman. I'm not in favor of changing the current alphabet but simply modifying it.

Nader Shah

Posted 27 February 2008 - 03:18 AM

Other than the historical argument - not losing our link to the past - which may not be valid anymore (converting all old texts to new alphabet can be computerized) ... there is one strong argument in favour of keeping the alphabet : because the differences in accents between Tajik-tajikistan, tajik-Afghanistan, Persian-Tehrani, and Persian-Isfahani, and so on ... having Arabic alphabet erases all differences and promotes the unity of the language. We with all write in the same way but read with slightly different pronunciations !!

Tehran

Posted 27 February 2008 - 03:25 AM

[quote=Darius;6456]And not only. Hundreds of thousands of precious books will vanish as well.[/quote]

the thought of not being able to read the poem inscribed on hafez's tomb is just SAD

arya-zadah

Posted 28 February 2008 - 05:37 AM

yes, definitely it would be good to keep Arabic one. but why not simplify it? just like Japanese have done? one "heh" instead of two, one "zeh" instead of 3, one "seh" instead of 3, one "teh" instead of 2, remove "ayn" from the beginnings of words but keep hamzeh(?), remove "qaf" (?) etc. we could simplify the writing of words that now are pronounced shortly by majority of persians, like "misheh/meshah" instead of mishavad/meshavad?

Parsistani

Posted 29 February 2008 - 06:49 PM

The ancient Persians and their brothers used also ''semtic'', proto-arabic writing scripture (arameic). I do not cara about the alphabete but about the vocabulary. Maybe someone of us is very smart and develope a new alphabete?
I am against latin because we have different (including old iranian dialects ->soghdi) dialects and if we write in latin we wont understand eachother. Turks in turkey have often this problem. In that case arabic do not know such a problem. Arabic can have 1000 different dialects but everywhere you can see they write the same phrases with the same letters.

Kambiz

Posted 01 March 2008 - 02:04 AM

[quote=Parsistani;6597]The ancient Persians and their brothers used also ''semtic'', proto-arabic writing scripture (arameic). I do not cara about the alphabete but about the vocabulary. Maybe someone of us is very smart and develope a new alphabete?
I am against latin because we have different (including old iranian dialects ->soghdi) dialects and if we write in latin we wont understand eachother. Turks in turkey have often this problem. In that case arabic do not know such a problem. Arabic can have 1000 different dialects but everywhere you can see they write the same phrases with the same letters.[/quote]
I doubt there is any need to create a new alphabet. The existing Perso-Arabic will do. All our forefathers have been using it and we don't need a division between us and them. We've seen it already twice in Tajikistan. Results are horrible. Thus perhaps we should keep what we have.

Nader Shah

Posted 01 March 2008 - 03:55 AM

Yes, I agree with you, Darius Jan.
[quote=Darius;6611]I doubt there is any need to create a new alphabet. The existing Perso-Arabic will do. All our forefathers have been using it and we don't need a division between us and them. We've seen it already twice in Tajikistan. Results are horrible. Thus perhaps we should keep what we have.[/quote]

Neo Bactra

Posted 02 March 2008 - 05:58 AM

[quote=Darius;6611]I doubt there is any need to create a new alphabet. The existing Perso-Arabic will do. All our forefathers have been using it and we don't need a division between us and them. We've seen it already twice in Tajikistan. Results are horrible. Thus perhaps we should keep what we have.[/quote]

Absolutely. I agree with you for the following two handy reasons: first, there is an overwhelming number of Tajiks who live outside Tajikistan and who do not understand alphabets other than Perso-Arabic. Second, these Tajiks will be deprived of benefits by the Tajik scholarship produced in Tajikistan.

Wsalam

PORS

Posted 07 March 2008 - 05:03 AM

Dorood Tehrani giromi:

Could you please comment on this: [quote=Tehran;6454]we created the Nast'alliq script and we must use it for our language. if we change our script, we would lose our calligraphy[/quote]

Little background and difference between Arabic and Nast'alliq would be great. Thank you.


Tandurust bimoned,




Pors.

Sohrab

Posted 07 March 2008 - 03:10 PM

It doesnt matter what we use, as long as it connects us with each other and connects us with our past ,will be good.

Farangis

Posted 07 March 2008 - 03:17 PM

[quote=Rika Khana;6962]It doesnt matter what we use, as long as it connects us with each other and connects us with our past ,will be good.[/quote]

Exactly..

Kambiz

Posted 07 March 2008 - 03:29 PM

[quote=Farangis;6963]Exactly..[/quote]

So nice to see you here Farangis. dorud and welcome!

PORS

Posted 11 March 2008 - 01:13 AM

Dorood,

Here is what one of the Tajik scholars think of wich alphabet should be used in Tajikistan. Hope you will enjoy that.

Perooz bemaned,


Pors.


[ame=http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lqGfmQ7zWp4&]http://www.youtube.c...?v=lqGfmQ7zWp4&[/ame]

MH.nezhadaria

Posted 22 March 2008 - 10:23 PM

Dorood
bande bar in bavaram ke dabireye bigane be darde zabane ma nemikhorad che arabi bashad che roosi va che englisi . az dide man behtar ast yeki az dabirehaye pish az eslam ra be rooz konim va an ra be kar bebarim .
albatte in kar hargez nabayad be jodayie keshvarhaye parsi zaban daman bezanad yani in ke in 3 keshvar har kari ke mikhahand bokonand bayad ba hamrahi va hamkari bashad .
va anche roshan ast in ast ke dabireye arabi be khatare pishine ash az digar dabirehaye bigane behtar ast . migooyand : '' miyane bad va badtar bayad bad ra bargozid " .

Nastoh

Posted 01 April 2008 - 10:02 PM

Bargasht ba dabireye (alefbaye) pish az Islam kare asane nest. Baraye bargasht ba alefbaye pish az Islam bayad nokhost zabane Parsi ra az kalemate arabi paak kard wa tamami kalemate asile farsi ra janeshine shan namood. ba taqibe an bayad tamami osaare adabi zabane Parsi ra ke pish az Islam negashta shoda ast, motalea kard wa az miane shan dabireye ra entekhab namood.

Agar Tajikan betwanand zabane Parsi qable Islam ra rayej nemayand, moafaqiate bozorg khwahad bood. Harch ast bayad ba zoodi anjam shawad. Dawlate Imam Ali Rahman dar in qesmat waqt gozarani mekonad wa baraye taghire khate cyrilic hich kare namekonad.
[quote=MH.nezhadaria;7832]Dorood
bande bar in bavaram ke dabireye bigane be darde zabane ma nemikhorad che arabi bashad che roosi va che englisi . az dide man behtar ast yeki az dabirehaye pish az eslam ra be rooz konim va an ra be kar bebarim .
albatte in kar hargez nabayad be jodayie keshvarhaye parsi zaban daman bezanad yani in ke in 3 keshvar har kari ke mikhahand bokonand bayad ba hamrahi va hamkari bashad .
va anche roshan ast in ast ke dabireye arabi be khatare pishine ash az digar dabirehaye bigane behtar ast . migooyand : '' miyane bad va badtar bayad bad ra bargozid " .[/quote]

MH.nezhadaria

Posted 05 April 2008 - 06:14 AM

dorood bar nastoh hane gerami .
agar betawanim vazhehaye tazi ra az zabaneman biroon konim ke kheili khoob mishavad . ke shaiad dabireye irani betavanad aghazi baraye in kar bashad .
sepas

Sohrab

Posted 05 April 2008 - 12:41 PM

[quote=MH.nezhadaria;8155]dorood bar nastoh hane gerami .
agar betawanim vazhehaye tazi ra az zabaneman biroon konim ke kheili khoob mishavad . ke shaiad dabireye irani betavanad aghazi baraye in kar bashad .
sepas[/quote]

How can we have one language rather than purify it!! this is the main issue not purification. At the moment we see alot of different words we use in Tajikistan, Iran and Afghanistan.

PORS

Posted 06 May 2008 - 09:44 AM

Dorood RK jan,

Although, I agree with you that unity among us, Persians of Iran, Afghanistan, and Tajikistan is foremost priority because it has been retarded, but preservation of our language is also vital. It is very difficult to obtain unity if our language will be under foreign languages' pressure and we end up with difficulty understanding each other. Language is one of the prime factors we know that we have one history, culture and values. If our language will be bombarded and we will have difficulty understanding each other, then our unity will be more difficult. Therefore, I urge people to consider purification of Persian language in their conversations as the vital factor in uniting us. They, Persian words, are all sweet and meaningful than those of foreign words. However, I acknowledge that it is difficult but it's possible.

Here is useful link for that: http://parsilive.blogfa.com/

Bedrood,



Pors.

Sohrab

Posted 06 May 2008 - 12:06 PM

[QUOTE=PORS;8705]Dorood RK jan,

Although, I agree with you that unity among us, Persians of Iran, Afghanistan, and Tajikistan is foremost priority because it has been retarded, but preservation of our language is also vital. It is very difficult to obtain unity if our language will be under foreign languages' pressure and we end up with difficulty understanding each other. Language is one of the prime factors we know that we have one history, culture and values. If our language will be bombarded and we will have difficulty understanding each other, then our unity will be more difficult. Therefore, I urge people to consider purification of Persian language in their conversations as the vital factor in uniting us. They, Persian words, are all sweet and meaningful than those of foreign words. However, I acknowledge that it is difficult but it's possible.

Here is useful link for that: http://parsilive.blogfa.com/

Bedrood,



Pors.[/QUOTE]

Dear Pors jan,

Yes, i am with you. but we have got alot of different problems in where we live. i put unification before purification because that is important for us right now. i also understand that purification is important. if we have unification we can easily understand each other without any difficulty. There are alot arabic words in our farsi, if we want to purify those words in a very revolutionary way, then it will take alot of our energy and time, and that will slightly aleniate the future generations from the work of Saddi,Hafiz Mulana Balkhi, Nasir Khesraw balkhi, Rodaki and others who each of them have alot of arabic vocabulary in their poetry. instead if we concentrate on how we can use the same vocabulary all of us, it will be a very first and fundemantal step towards purification. take a look at english, it is a universal language and have got loads of vocuabularies from latin, french, german etc. on the other hand if we see Turkish language, they have tried alot to purify it, but still their langage has never gone out of their own circle.

Dushanbe

Posted 06 July 2008 - 12:30 PM

http://asiaplus.tj/t...s/42/34019.html


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03.07.2008 14:26

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Ahhangar

Posted 06 July 2008 - 05:48 PM

[QUOTE=Dushanbe;11008]http://asiaplus.tj/t...s/42/34019.html


??? ? ??? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ??? , - ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ???

03.07.2008 14:26

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??? ??? ??, ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ?? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? , ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?, ??? ? ??? ? ??? ? 80%-? ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ? ?? ??? ? ??? ???, ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ??? , ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ???, - ??? ? ?. ??? ? ??? .
??? ??? ? ??? ??, ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?, ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ?, ?? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ?, ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? 22 ??? ? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??, ?? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ?.[/QUOTE]


Dushanbe,

Can you translate it for the rest of us?

I understand that the Arabic script leaves out all of the vowels - but what other reasons are there in this professors argument about the unsuitability of Arabic script.

Thanks

Dushanbe

Posted 06 July 2008 - 06:52 PM

My trasliteration



Imrooz dar Ittifoqi zhurnalistoni Tojikiston vokhurii professori kafedrai zhurnalistikai Donishgohi davlatii millii Tojikistion Ibrohim Usmonov bo rohbaroni vositai akhborii ommai chopii Tojikistion barguzor gasht. Dar muloqot masalai guzashtan az khati kirilli ba alifboi arabi muhokima shud.
- Alifboi arabi talaboti zaboni tojikiro purra qone sokhta nametavonad, zero tooli besh az hazor sol in khat dar zaboni tojiki istifoda shudaast, vale on nozukihoi zaboni tojikiro purra ifoda karda natavonist. izhor dosht olim, - Peshnihodi chande az namoyandagoni ziyoiyoni jomea dar borai guzashtan ba alifboi arabi nodurustand va ilova bar in, hej zarurate dar in kor nest.
- Aqidai on, ki bo guzashtan ba alifboi arabi mo bo osori guzashtagonu omuzishi ilm bo zaboni asl shinos meshavem, asosi voqei nadorand, zero taqriban 80%-i merosi zarurii khattii niyogonamon ba alifboi kirilli bargardonida shudaast va mutakhassison vazifadorand bo khati tojiki, ki ba alifboi arabi asos yoftaast, oshnoi doshta boshand, guft I. Usmonov.
- Dar mavridi on, ki bo guzashtan ba alifboi arabi gooyo mo bo mardumi digari forsizaboni jahon nazdiku qarin megardem, olim izhor dosht, ki khalqhoro hukumatho mavjuda ba ham nazdik mesozand, na khatu alifbo va chun namuna 22 kishvari jahoni arabro misol ovard, ki bo yak zabon harf mezanandu vale muttahid shuda nametavonand.

Ahhangar

Posted 06 July 2008 - 07:20 PM

[QUOTE=Dushanbe;11020]My trasliteration



Imrooz dar Ittifoqi zhurnalistoni Tojikiston vokhurii professori kafedrai zhurnalistikai Donishgohi davlatii millii Tojikistion Ibrohim Usmonov bo rohbaroni vositai akhborii ommai chopii Tojikistion barguzor gasht. Dar muloqot masalai guzashtan az khati kirilli ba alifboi arabi muhokima shud.
- Alifboi arabi talaboti zaboni tojikiro purra qone sokhta nametavonad, zero tooli besh az hazor sol in khat dar zaboni tojiki istifoda shudaast, vale on nozukihoi zaboni tojikiro purra ifoda karda natavonist. izhor dosht olim, - Peshnihodi chande az namoyandagoni ziyoiyoni jomea dar borai guzashtan ba alifboi arabi nodurustand va ilova bar in, hej zarurate dar in kor nest.
- Aqidai on, ki bo guzashtan ba alifboi arabi mo bo osori guzashtagonu omuzishi ilm bo zaboni asl shinos meshavem, asosi voqei nadorand, zero taqriban 80%-i merosi zarurii khattii niyogonamon ba alifboi kirilli bargardonida shudaast va mutakhassison vazifadorand bo khati tojiki, ki ba alifboi arabi asos yoftaast, oshnoi doshta boshand, guft I. Usmonov.
- Dar mavridi on, ki bo guzashtan ba alifboi arabi gooyo mo bo mardumi digari forsizaboni jahon nazdiku qarin megardem, olim izhor dosht, ki khalqhoro hukumatho mavjuda ba ham nazdik mesozand, na khatu alifbo va chun namuna 22 kishvari jahoni arabro misol ovard, ki bo yak zabon harf mezanandu vale muttahid shuda nametavonand.[/QUOTE]

Thanks.

I agree with the view that the Arabic script does not allow for all of the nuances in the Persian language to be written down - the lacking vowels has probably contributed to the widening of the pronunciation differences.

His last point is that he rejects the notion that adopting Arabic alphabet will ensure the strengthening of the Persian speaking world and says that it is government that can do that only - citing the example of the Arabic speaking nations - despite having the same language and script are not united politically since their governments are not keen on wider Arab unity. To this point I would say that should the Arab governments adopt a line of Arab unity - then the fact that they already acknowledge that they all have the same language and they all use the same script - their job of bringing about unity would be that much easier. So in that line of thinking there is still good justification for the adopting a common script amongst all Persian speakers - but since the Arabic script does have some shortcomings - the question is raised as to which common script ought to be adopted by all Persian countries?

Here again a good outcome would be the adopting of Latin in lieu of Cyrillic in Tajikistan and the teaching of Arabic alphabet to ensure recognition of Arabic script Persian writing fro Afghanistan and Iran. In addition to that - the teaching of Latin alphabet to children of Afghanistan and Iran in order to ensure recognition of Latin script Persian writing from Tajikistan.

This would mean that all Persian speakers will get to benefit from the versatility of the Latin script - without loosing the ability to read Persian Arabic script as it has been used for such a long period in our history.

Ahhangar

Dushanbe

Posted 06 July 2008 - 09:47 PM

By supporting the above said, I would like to say them this way:

If to look at EU, we see that in spite of having different languages, they managed to create a Union. They are all NATO countries and allies. The main reason for this unification is their ideology: they share common values and democratic, liberal views.

The opposite is Arabic countries. In spite of having a common language and script they are not united and unprotected. If one of them attacked, none will come for help. And their unification in the near future is very doubtful.
Arabic script was forced on us and our scholars had to use this script in spite of all its shortages. We have used Arabic script for more than 1000 years, but this script could not save all the nuances of our language and we do not know how certain words were pronounced a long time ago. For this reason we need to record our written language so that after 1000 years the people could know exactly how we pronounced the words.

Additionally, every scholar in Tajikistan who is involved in research of linguistics, literature and history are obliged to know Arabic script. Knowing Arabic script and being able to read Persian is obligatory for these researchers in Tajikistan.

What about Latin script, I think we will definitely transform to it after 6-10 years, maybe. Cyrillic has less benefit to us in comparison to the benefit that Latin will give.

Some benefits:
1. Latin is easier than Cyrillic (bigger difference between handwritten and typed language/script)
2. It is being taught anyways. The students start having English lessons from the first grade.
3. It is used by many countries already.
4. It will become easier for foreigners to learn our language.
5. The other Persian speaking peoples will be able to read it. We have a lot of Iranian and Afghanistani students in our country and they face a lot of difficulties because of the script. The change of script into Latin will increase their numbers in our universities. (From Afghanistan they usually come to do PhD, because we have agreements between Russia and other former Soviet countries to recognize each others degrees and these degrees are recognized worldwide).
6. Being in a foreign country, my computer has no Cyrillic and I will have to type everything in Latin.
7. Etc.

Ahhangar

Posted 07 July 2008 - 12:41 AM

[QUOTE=Dushanbe;11026]By supporting the above said, I would like to say them this way:

If to look at EU, we see that in spite of having different languages, they managed to create a Union. They are all NATO countries and allies. The main reason for this unification is their ideology: they share common values and democratic, liberal views.

The opposite is Arabic countries. In spite of having a common language and script they are not united and unprotected. If one of them attacked, none will come for help. And their unification in the near future is very doubtful.
Arabic script was forced on us and our scholars had to use this script in spite of all its shortages. We have used Arabic script for more than 1000 years, but this script could not save all the nuances of our language and we do not know how certain words were pronounced a long time ago. For this reason we need to record our written language so that after 1000 years the people could know exactly how we pronounced the words.

Additionally, every scholar in Tajikistan who is involved in research of linguistics, literature and history are obliged to know Arabic script. Knowing Arabic script and being able to read Persian is obligatory for these researchers in Tajikistan.

What about Latin script, I think we will definitely transform to it after 6-10 years, maybe. Cyrillic has less benefit to us in comparison to the benefit that Latin will give.

Some benefits:
1. Latin is easier than Cyrillic (bigger difference between handwritten and typed language/script)
2. It is being taught anyways. The students start having English lessons from the first grade.
3. It is used by many countries already.
4. It will become easier for foreigners to learn our language.
5. The other Persian speaking peoples will be able to read it. We have a lot of Iranian and Afghanistani students in our country and they face a lot of difficulties because of the script. The change of script into Latin will increase their numbers in our universities. (From Afghanistan they usually come to do PhD, because we have agreements between Russia and other former Soviet countries to recognize each others degrees and these degrees are recognized worldwide).
6. Being in a foreign country, my computer has no Cyrillic and I will have to type everything in Latin.
7. Etc.[/QUOTE]


Dear Dushanbe,

You mentioned that there are many PhD students from Iran and Afghanistan in your country, which is very interesting. I was wondering if you could elaborate on it a bit - it seems a great way to raise mutual understanding of each other - especially amongst the intellectual elite of the three countries.

Iran as I understand it has many great institutions of learning and the adoption of teaching the Arabic alphabet to the students in Tajikistan would greatly help their problems should they wish to pursue studies in Iran. Iranian degrees are highly prized - especially if they are from the top institutions of that country.

Ahhangar

Dushanbe

Posted 07 July 2008 - 08:04 AM

That is rights. I read in an article about a month ago that there are over 400 students from Iran. I do not know how many students from Afghanistan are there in Tajikistan, but there are many. I watched on tv bout Afghanistani PhD students over a year ago.
They usually do PhD in history, political studies, literature, and related fields. And, for this reason (growing numbers), the Iranian university "Payami Nur" is going to open its branch in Dushanbe soon.

Why in Tajikistan?

I suppose:
For Afghanistanis: it is more prestigious,
For Iranians: it is easier in Tajikistan (to do - to defend). Additionally, they are showing interest about the history of Central Asia and Tajiks and they come for research. Some of the do the research in Tajikistan and Defend it in Iran.

Iran has 100 scholarships for Tajikistani students and every year 100 students are sent for the study (of course they learn Persian script before going). Before there was 50, but last year our president requested from Iranian president to increase the number to 100. He agreed.


[QUOTE=Ahhangar;11032]Dear Dushanbe,

You mentioned that there are many PhD students from Iran and Afghanistan in your country, which is very interesting. I was wondering if you could elaborate on it a bit - it seems a great way to raise mutual understanding of each other - especially amongst the intellectual elite of the three countries.

Iran as I understand it has many great institutions of learning and the adoption of teaching the Arabic alphabet to the students in Tajikistan would greatly help their problems should they wish to pursue studies in Iran. Iranian degrees are highly prized - especially if they are from the top institutions of that country.

Ahhangar[/QUOTE]

Arash

Posted 07 July 2008 - 10:00 AM

[QUOTE=Dushanbe;11041] the Iranian university "Payami Nur"
.[/QUOTE]

OMG :D

that is like the McDonalds of Universities, the results for my Koncur are coming soon... i will kill myself if i only get accepted to that university:D

the university is also very very religious

Sohrab

Posted 07 July 2008 - 10:28 AM

[QUOTE=Arash;11042]OMG :D

that is like the McDonalds of Universities, the results for my Koncur are coming soon... i will kill myself if i only get accepted to that university:D

[/QUOTE]

Is it from happiness or sadness? :)

Dushanbe

Posted 07 July 2008 - 11:50 AM

[QUOTE=Rika Khana;11046]Is it from happiness or sadness? :) [/QUOTE]
I heard from my Iranian friend that it is a bad university

Sohrab

Posted 07 July 2008 - 01:22 PM

[QUOTE=Dushanbe;11047]I heard from my Iranian friend that it is a bad university[/QUOTE]

Do you know if it is located in Tehran?

Dushanbe

Posted 07 July 2008 - 01:50 PM

I hope Arash will answer this question.

[QUOTE=Rika Khana;11051]Do you know if it is located in Tehran?[/QUOTE]

Nader Shah

Posted 08 July 2008 - 02:39 AM

Payam e Noor is basically broadcasting long-distance education ("watered down") at the University level in classes where, besides the chairs, there is only a TV screen :D - It has no location, it can be wherever you can get the TV broadcasts.
[QUOTE=Rika Khana;11051]Do you know if it is located in Tehran?[/QUOTE]

Afrasiab

Posted 08 July 2008 - 09:52 AM

I know this professor. He is the hater of Iran. He regulary criticizes the Persian alphabet and Iran. What Iran and Iranians have made with him and why he so hates them, I cannot understand.((

Sohrab

Posted 08 July 2008 - 10:46 AM

[QUOTE=Afrasiab;11070]I know this professor. He is the hater of Iran. He regulary criticizes the Persian alphabet and Iran. What Iran and Iranians have made with him and why he so hates them, I cannot understand.(([/QUOTE]

Is he Tajik?

Afrasiab

Posted 08 July 2008 - 12:43 PM

[QUOTE=Rika Khana;11071]Is he Tajik?[/QUOTE]

He is khujandi Tajik. Maybe he has relation with Uzbeks. He wrote many books (very valuable books) about history of our nation. But he always tries to divide Tajiks and Persians, as two different people. He sure, that if we shall start to name ourselves Persians then our enemies begin declare that we came from Iran and we are not local people in Central Asia, i.e. he speaks bosh.

Sohrab

Posted 08 July 2008 - 01:03 PM

[QUOTE=Afrasiab;11075]He is khujandi Tajik. Maybe he has relation with Uzbeks. He wrote many books (very valuable books) about history of our nation. But he always tries to divide Tajiks and Persians, as two different people. He sure, that if we shall start to name ourselves Persians then our enemies begin declare that we came from Iran and we are not local people in Central Asia, i.e. he speaks bosh.[/QUOTE]

I think this notion of and fear of getting blamed to have come from iran is basically from lack of confidance. The tajiks have history in that region and no one can deny it. Bear in mind that the strenght of Tajikistan's culture and language is very related to their good cultural relations with us in Afghanistan and in Iran. We have to stick toghether to survive.

Ahhangar

Posted 08 July 2008 - 04:25 PM

[QUOTE=Afrasiab;11075]He is khujandi Tajik. Maybe he has relation with Uzbeks. He wrote many books (very valuable books) about history of our nation. But he always tries to divide Tajiks and Persians, as two different people. He sure, that if we shall start to name ourselves Persians then our enemies begin declare that we came from Iran and we are not local people in Central Asia, i.e. he speaks bosh.[/QUOTE]

I think that the enemies of the Tajiks in Central Asia will use any excuse to cause them to disappear from their homelands. Look at Uzbekistan where the people who declare themselves as being Tajik are forced to become Uzbeks. I think that no matter what happens - the enemies of the Tajiks will try to erase them from that land - and claim all of the history for themselves. So in the line of thought we ought to not care for what they say and just care for what is right - which is that we are all Iranic - and that the term Iran should not be confined to just the geography of present day Iran. The more one trys to appease or to avoid confrontation with these wretched Turkics - the more they become confident and the more they demand.

The very term Tajik is a non-native term that is applied to us by the Turkics/Chinese - is a symbol of their apparent domination - in that their terminology holds superiority. The continued use of the term is a barrier to the development of a vigorous sense of nationhood amongst our peoples - most of whom are now forced to become Uzbeks in Uzbekistan and Afghans in Afghanistan. Although in Afghanistan it is not as bad as Uzbekistan.

The term that should be adopted is PARS. It is native and means one who is Iranic and speaks Parsi. Even though man of the Tajiks of central Asia originally spoke Sogdi- Bactiran - they were then as now still Iranic - but now their language is simply Parsi - which means that the correct term for them is PARS.

This misconception that the PARS refers to only the Fars province of Iran must be dispelled.

Ahhangar

Nader Shah

Posted 09 July 2008 - 03:29 AM

Well said ...
[QUOTE=Ahhangar;11081]This misconception that the PARS refers to only the Fars province of Iran must be dispelled. Ahhangar[/QUOTE]

Kamyar

Posted 09 July 2008 - 07:50 AM

http://www.unipers.com/

UniPers: A 21st Century Alphabet for the Persian Language

Kamyar

Posted 09 July 2008 - 07:53 AM

We need to popularize UniPers because it will help people from other parts of the world learn Farsi, which is good for the language's global status.

Right now I think Arabic has a higher status then Farsi internationally.

Kambiz

Posted 09 July 2008 - 10:54 AM

The 'Professor' is a well known anti-Tajik (Persian) dude who's worked for KGB in the past. He says, the term 'Tajik' has nothing to do with 'Persian', our language is not 'Persian' but 'Tajiki' and our script should never change. These 'professors' know that as soon as we go back to Persian script in Tajikistan all their researches will be consumed as toilet paper, since most of their writings are about miserable things like fullstop and comma in Cyrillic or Russian-based grammar of the language. On the other hand, he must be still fulfilling his Soviet task of segmenting us. That's why his views are not respected by nationalist intelligentsia.

Ahhangar

Posted 09 July 2008 - 08:47 PM

[QUOTE=Darius;11123]The 'Professor' is a well known anti-Tajik (Persian) dude who's worked for KGB in the past. He says, the term 'Tajik' has nothing to do with 'Persian', our language is not 'Persian' but 'Tajiki' and our script should never change. These 'professors' know that as soon as we go back to Persian script in Tajikistan all their researches will be consumed as toilet paper, since most of their writings are about miserable things like fullstop and comma in Cyrillic or Russian-based grammar of the language. On the other hand, he must be still fulfilling his Soviet task of segmenting us. That's why his views are not respected by nationalist intelligentsia.[/QUOTE]

Well I think his points have to be judged individually - despite his background and political intentions.

He makes a valid point about the short comings of the Arabic alphabet based script - in that it cannot express all of the nuances of the Persian language. The parts the Cyrillic is better at than Arabic alphabet - can be done just as well by Latin script if not better. If he is against the change from Cyrillic to Latin based script the it would be a ridiculous position on KGB funded part!

His point about political factors being far more important in bringing about unity amongst the nations that speak the Persian language - rather than adopting the Arabic script makes sense. If he opposes the idea that the children of Tajikistan should be taught to recognize Arabic script as a supplementary class - so that they can read works written in Iran and Afghanistan - would reveal his ill intentions.

Indeed - adoption of Latin based script in Tajikistan as the official script and the teaching the children of Tajikistan to read Arabic alphabet based script as an additional class would benefit all the Persian speaking world and be a huge step towards bridging psychological distances between us - which would then lead onto unity friendly politics. The Persian speakers of Afghanistan and Iran would be able to read the Latin based script as they are being taught Latin letter through compulsory learning of English and the Persian speakers of Tajikistan would be able to read script from Iran and Afghanistan. We all gain. Indeed the Latin based script could be of huge benefit for the development of our peoples - not only in Tajikistan but in Iran and especially in Afghanistan.


Anyhow - can you given the names of the nationalist intelligentsia of Tajikistan and some of their views or show the way to accessing some of their works?

Ahhangar

Ahhangar

Posted 09 July 2008 - 08:57 PM

Older post - re posted

Dorood all,

We have all been witness to the problems of the various Persian speaking populations of the world. This one vast language has different names and different script depending on the political entity in which it is located.

One way to ease our problems is to use Parsi-e-Jahani - GlobalPersian script in order to get around the problems of not knowing the Cyrillic alphabet - or the Arabic alphabet.

For the Tajiki speakers whom use Cyrillic - it is much easier and quicker to learn to write in latin global persian than to learn to write in the arabic letter based script used in Afghanistan and Iran.

IT is fact the most efficient way to establish a standard form of persian between the different populations. We can think of it as our common language of business - thus alleviating the fears of those whom think that latin script will replace the beautiful arabic based script.

We must have a language by which we can do business across the countries and draw up common contracts and so on - and also - to get more and more Tajiks from every where to talk to each other.

It will also make the learning of Persian easier for all of the those Persians whom live in non persian societies and have lost much of their persian vocabulary. Almost all of these kinds of peoples - mostly living in societies that use latin based script - will pickup quickly reading Global Persian script.

It will make the learning of the Arabic based script that much easier aswell - since vocabulary could be built up using the latin scripted texts - and thus with knowledge to recognize the words it would be easier to learn their Arabic transliteration.

Infact in Tajikistan -- they should should official adopt it as part of the educational program of their students.

http://en.wikipedia....tion_of_Persian

http://www.unipers.com/

Posted Image Posted Image


Sample:

Dnejuyi ke dustre fargiriye basandeye dabireye Prsi-Arabi bad, byad emlye picpice hameye vehvo dasturhye dovr n r be yd beseprad. Ostdi dar nevetano xndan be dabireye Prsi-Arabi nazdik be 9 sl kueo azxodgozategi niyz drad. Barye hamin ast ke darsade bozorgi az mardome bsavde Irn, be saxti mitavnand asarhye bozorgne adabe Prsi con Golestno Bustne Sa'di, Masnaviye Balxi, y ?*hnmeye Ferdowsi r bilaqze bexnand. T be nj ke, darsade omdeyi az in bsavdn dar xndane maqleye ruznme bz mimnand y dar nevetane en laqzehye emlyi mikonand.

http://www.unipers.com/pa_par.htm

--------------------------------------------------


So what do you think guys?

I am looking for some UniPers fonts.


Ahhangar

Gul agha

Posted 09 July 2008 - 09:03 PM

I have this friend who is currently working on this in norway to make a better standard latin alphabet for Persian than unipers. We should make the alphabet simple like english by removing the accents.

Ahhangar

Posted 09 July 2008 - 10:43 PM

[QUOTE=Gul agha;11159]I have this friend who is currently working on this in norway to make a better standard latin alphabet for Persian than unipers. We should make the alphabet simple like english by removing the accents.[/QUOTE]

Do you mean the removal of the diacritics , , , etc , when you say making it simple by removing the accents?

Is that possible?

We as English speakers may find it odd - but that is because English is not entirely phonetically written - but many other languages use it aplenty, e.g German.

Ahhangar

Gul agha

Posted 10 July 2008 - 01:54 AM

well, in Iran and Afghanistan people learn the English version which has no accents.

= aa
= zh
= Sh

Afrasiab

Posted 10 July 2008 - 03:29 AM

[QUOTE=Ahhangar;11158]Ostdi dar nevetano xndan be dabireye Prsi-Arabi nazdik be 9 sl kueo azxodgozategi niyz drad. Barye hamin ast ke darsade bozorgi az mardome bsavde Irn, be saxti mitavnand asarhye bozorgne adabe Prsi con Golestno Bustne Sa'di, Masnaviye Balxi, y ?*hnmeye Ferdowsi r bilaqze bexnand. T be nj ke, darsade omdeyi az in bsavdn dar xndane maqleye ruznme bz mimnand y dar nevetane en laqzehye emlyi mikonand.

Ahhangar[/QUOTE]

:( :( :( It make me sad

Sohrab

Posted 10 July 2008 - 10:54 AM

Because we have got this script issue, i see the latin alphabet as one of the solutions. But i have got one problem with it, i really struggle when i read parsi in latin alphabet. i sometimes give up reading it. hope it is only me not the others.

Kambiz

Posted 10 July 2008 - 01:19 PM

Well people who know both Persian and Cyrillic scripts (the 'Professor' does) are well aware of its utter incompatability with our language. First of all, by defining all vowels in writing it has officially torn us apart from other dialects of our language. That's the main reason they don't want us to re-embrace the Persian script, cuz it will automatically return us to the Persophone sphere. Secondly, Cyrillic characters do not represent Persian sounds properly. For example, the word 'dorud' is written as 'durud', while we know that the first vowel is shorter than the second one. The words 'binaa' (who can see) and 'benaa' or 'banaa' (building) have a single form: bino, whereas in the former the 'i' is longer and in the latter it's shorter. But nothing indicates it in writing. As a result, some 'poets' in Central Asia rhyme 'benaa' (building) with 'Sinaa' (Avicenna), cuz they are written as 'bino' and 'Sino'.

The Russian vowel 'O' used instead of 'aa' has distorted our pronunciation and made it rounder than it's supposed to be.

By and large, Cyrillic is not for Persian and it is one of the reasons Tajiks can't speak their language fluently now. Actually the absence of most of the vowels in the Persian script is one of its advantages since any Persian can read the same word in his/her own accent/dialect.

As for the 'Professor', we know each other very well and had a long quarrel for several years. Thus, whatever I said about him was true but based on my personal view that could not be unbiased.

[QUOTE=Ahhangar;11155]Well I think his points have to be judged individually - despite his background and political intentions.

He makes a valid point about the short comings of the Arabic alphabet based script - in that it cannot express all of the nuances of the Persian language. The parts the Cyrillic is better at than Arabic alphabet - can be done just as well by Latin script if not better. If he is against the change from Cyrillic to Latin based script the it would be a ridiculous position on KGB funded part!

His point about political factors being far more important in bringing about unity amongst the nations that speak the Persian language - rather than adopting the Arabic script makes sense. If he opposes the idea that the children of Tajikistan should be taught to recognize Arabic script as a supplementary class - so that they can read works written in Iran and Afghanistan - would reveal his ill intentions.

Indeed - adoption of Latin based script in Tajikistan as the official script and the teaching the children of Tajikistan to read Arabic alphabet based script as an additional class would benefit all the Persian speaking world and be a huge step towards bridging psychological distances between us - which would then lead onto unity friendly politics. The Persian speakers of Afghanistan and Iran would be able to read the Latin based script as they are being taught Latin letter through compulsory learning of English and the Persian speakers of Tajikistan would be able to read script from Iran and Afghanistan. We all gain. Indeed the Latin based script could be of huge benefit for the development of our peoples - not only in Tajikistan but in Iran and especially in Afghanistan.


Anyhow - can you given the names of the nationalist intelligentsia of Tajikistan and some of their views or show the way to accessing some of their works?

Ahhangar[/QUOTE]

PORS

Posted 10 July 2008 - 03:33 PM

Why specifically Latin? Why not further develop existing, like UniPers or something like that, to make it easier. Because we all learn Latin when we learn English at school. Therefore, I don't see any point in changing to Latin. I think it's more important to be able to read original writings of Roudaki, Ferdowsi, Khayyam, Saa'di and others and make it easier for people to learn it by developing existing one further. Maybe, I am missing some points in regards in changing to Latin, but would be glad to know what others think and judge.

Ba seepas,




Pors.

Sohrab

Posted 10 July 2008 - 06:53 PM

[QUOTE=PORS;11205]Why specifically Latin? Why not further develop existing, like UniPers or something like that, to make it easier. Because we all learn Latin when we learn English at school. Therefore, I don't see any point in changing to Latin. I think it's more important to be able to read original writings of Roudaki, Ferdowsi, Khayyam, Saa'di and others and make it easier for people to learn it by developing existing one further. Maybe, I am missing some points in regards in changing to Latin, but would be glad to know what others think and judge.

Ba seepas,

Pors.[/QUOTE]

I am totally in your side. but we have to consider others too. for example it Tajikistan some people resist the perso arabic alphabet while in iran and afghanistan we know nothing about cyrillic. to make more contacts with each other, we have to come up with a solution and one of them is latin. there is also another solution, in Tajikisan they keep cyrillic and also learn persian alphabet at schools.

PORS

Posted 10 July 2008 - 06:58 PM

Baradar RK-e gerami,

Have you thought of my question about starting Parsi promotion here in Tajikam.com? I am still pondering, but you could contribute a lot to that idea. What do you think?




Pors.


[QUOTE=Rika Khana;11227]I am totally in your side. but we have to consider others too. for example it Tajikistan some people resist the perso arabic alphabet while in iran and afghanistan we know nothing about cyrillic. to make more contacts with each other, we have to come up with a solution and one of them is latin. there is also another solution, in Tajikisan they keep cyrillic and also learn persian alphabet at schools.[/QUOTE]

Sohrab

Posted 10 July 2008 - 07:14 PM

[QUOTE=PORS;11229]Baradar RK-e gerami,

Have you thought of my question about starting Parsi promotion here in Tajikam.com? I am still pondering, but you could contribute a lot to that idea. What do you think?




Pors.[/QUOTE]

was it about teaching persian alphabet to those who cant read Parsi? and also cyrillic to those who are not familiar with it?

PORS

Posted 10 July 2008 - 07:18 PM

Aha, mainly teach Persian to those who are not familiar with it. As for cyrillic, it's secondary.

[QUOTE=Rika Khana;11236]was it about teaching persian alphabet to those who cant read Parsi? and also cyrillic to those who are not familiar with it?[/QUOTE]

Sohrab

Posted 10 July 2008 - 07:27 PM

[QUOTE=PORS;11238]Aha, mainly teach Persian to those who are not familiar with it. As for cyrillic, it's secondary.[/QUOTE]

Pors jan, I think i gave my thoughts to that idea. it is excellent and great. i am sure you'll have the support of all of us if you start it.

PORS

Posted 10 July 2008 - 07:37 PM

If I start? That's interesting... hahahaha :rolleyes: I thought it would be better if you start because you have got good background and rich experience in Parsi :D

I wish I was pluent in my Parsi, but anyways "Never Give UP!" :)



Pors.

[QUOTE=Rika Khana;11242]Pors jan, I think i gave my thoughts to that idea. it is excellent and great. i am sure you'll have the support of all of us if you start it.[/QUOTE]

Sohrab

Posted 10 July 2008 - 07:47 PM

[QUOTE=PORS;11244]If I start? That's interesting... hahahaha :rolleyes: I thought it would be better if you start because you have got good background and rich experience in Parsi :D

I wish I was pluent in my Parsi, but anyways "Never Give UP!" :)



Pors.[/QUOTE]

Pors jan, You are PLUENT in parsi. you'll make a good teacher becaue you got good knowledge of cyrillic, and also persian alphabet.

But anyways, i am not in favour of one man band, we all have to take part in it.

Ahhangar

Posted 10 July 2008 - 11:00 PM

[QUOTE=Rika Khana;11227]I am totally in your side. but we have to consider others too. for example it Tajikistan some people resist the perso arabic alphabet while in iran and afghanistan we know nothing about cyrillic. to make more contacts with each other, we have to come up with a solution and one of them is latin. there is also another solution, in Tajikisan they keep cyrillic and also learn persian alphabet at schools.[/QUOTE]


The policy in Tajikistan should be this:

Change to a Latin based script in place of Cyrillic. This will mean that the texts will be readable to a much wider population of the world that is familiar with the Latin based script, especially us in Afghanistan and Iran. Also it will be good for us in Afghanistan and Iran in that it will be refreshing to be exposed to secular concepts.

It will also ensure that the negative connotations of the Arabic alphabet are not re-imposed upon Tajkistan. There are many other advantages to Latin over Cyrillic. Changing to Latin from Cyrillic is far more likely than Afghanistan or Iran where the Arabic based script holds sway. And I think we should not change it in Afghanistan either.

Teach the children at school to recognize and read the Persian based on the Arabic alphabet. This will mean that the young of the Tajikistan will be able to read - maybe not like poets - the Arabic based scripts - written in Iran and Afghanistan.

The best combination is this to be able read both in Latin and Arabic based alphabets - this would make the reading of the Arabic based script - especially the poetry much easier - something which requires 9 + years of dedicated learning to master properly. The Latin equivalent will help to make it really easy - and not make the works of Rumi Hafez and Saadi only fully accessible to a minor elite of dedicated scholars. It will infact increase the accessibility of such works amongst our populations and their sense of heritage and commonness. Keeping the Arabic based script will mean that we get to not loose the sense of heritage attached to it or the beautiful calligraphy.

In Turkey - before the conversion to latin - only very few Turks were able to fully appreciate the texts written in the Arabic based script fully - but afterwards it many more Turks learnt about their literary treasures. It also made it easier for the non Turks to learn Turkish - and to Turkify the nation that much more effectively.

Ahhangar

Nader Shah

Posted 11 July 2008 - 05:40 AM

Dear Ahangar and others,

Yes it sounds all very nice , but 70 million people won't switch to Latin, with or without Islamic republic. I am not a supporter of Arabic or Perso-Arabic, but really it is not practical and the Unipers people are fooling you.

My main reason for wanting to keep the Perso-Arabic script is that we can all read the same text, yet pronounce it with our Tehrani, or Tajikistani, or Kabuli accent. With Latin script it will be much harder to understand each other, since all the vowels change.

So, as the Chinese use on script for mandarin and cantonese - they all read the same text even though the phonetic transcription is totally different (more like English and Greek languages), they can all read the same text.

Arabic script - because it does not require the wovels to be shown explicitly only keeps the essential information: the consonants, and leaves you free to screw around with the vowels as you like (Tehrani or otherwise) ... and when you read the text, just use your imagination with the vowels.

In fact, it is a form of data compression as we would understand it today. Don't estimate the Arabic script, as it shares roots with all Semitic scripts, and Latin is derived from Semitic scripts.

CONCLUSION: Arabic script - not quite the way PORS uses it ;) but in its standard notation - will allow us to understand each other uniformly whether in Iran, Tajikistan, or Afghanistan. We read exactly the same Arabic letters (consonants) but pronounce the vowels the way we like.

I trouble reading Tajikistani Persian in Latin or Cyrillic scripts, because so many of the vowels are different. I vote Arab in this sole exceptional case as their script erases all regional differences :D

Nader Shah

Posted 11 July 2008 - 06:36 AM

Darius jan, I am with you :) I am no pro-Arab, and neither are you as a Zoroastrian. But we know that the Arabic script erases differences and makes us all want to read it, because it is written the same way - as it was written by Rudaki - for all of us, and we can pronounce it any way we like :)
[QUOTE=Darius;11196]Well people who know both Persian and Cyrillic scripts (the 'Professor' does) are well aware of its utter incompatability with our language. First of all, by defining all vowels in writing it has officially torn us apart from other dialects of our language. That's the main reason they don't want us to re-embrace the Persian script, cuz it will automatically return us to the Persophone sphere. Secondly, Cyrillic characters do not represent Persian sounds properly. For example, the word 'dorud' is written as 'durud', while we know that the first vowel is shorter than the second one. The words 'binaa' (who can see) and 'benaa' or 'banaa' (building) have a single form: bino, whereas in the former the 'i' is longer and in the latter it's shorter. But nothing indicates it in writing. As a result, some 'poets' in Central Asia rhyme 'benaa' (building) with 'Sinaa' (Avicenna), cuz they are written as 'bino' and 'Sino'.

The Russian vowel 'O' used instead of 'aa' has distorted our pronunciation and made it rounder than it's supposed to be.

By and large, Cyrillic is not for Persian and it is one of the reasons Tajiks can't speak their language fluently now. Actually the absence of most of the vowels in the Persian script is one of its advantages since any Persian can read the same word in his/her own accent/dialect.

As for the 'Professor', we know each other very well and had a long quarrel for several years. Thus, whatever I said about him was true but based on my personal view that could not be unbiased.[/QUOTE]

PORS

Posted 11 July 2008 - 06:39 AM

Maybe I am not being able to picture the whole scene, but honestly I don't see any point in changing to Latin. Because everybody learns english and that's basically latin. No need to change whole thing to latin and have whole bunch of herd. Although, I don't think Persian script which is based on arabic is good as well, at least it gives us an access to great works of our great thinkers and fosters our relations with Iran and modern Afghanistan. Persian based solely on arabic is no good as well, because of religious intentions of clergies all around. Salafis and movements to that nature is best (worst I mean) example. But, maybe UniPers or something to that nature might work.


Pors.

Sohrab

Posted 11 July 2008 - 06:47 AM

[QUOTE=Nader Shah;11287]Darius jan, I am with you :) I am no pro-Arab, and neither are you as a Zoroastrian. But we know that the Arabic script erases differences and makes us all want to read it, because it is written the same way - as it was written by Rudaki - for all of us, and we can pronounce it any way we like :) [/QUOTE]

That is quiet right. this is the reason when i read iranian books, i never feel to have read something which was written by someone who has Tehrani accent. I feel it has Kabuli accent(the writter). So it is good and give us much wider option and openness. as i mentioned before i always struggle to read farsi through latin alphabet. but we have to keep in mind that we gota do something to overcome this problem. the problem is basically in Tajikistan, how to tackle this, we need to consider all sides,options and posibilities that gives us what we want. but changing the perso arabic in afghanistan and iran is not only wise, but also imposible.

PORS

Posted 11 July 2008 - 06:47 AM

I also agree that Parsi should be adopted in Tajikistan the same way it is in Iran, and Afghanistan today. Having major accents like gooishe Irani, gooishe Dari ya gooishe Tajiki will make Parsi more beautiful and colorful.

Ahhangar

Posted 11 July 2008 - 06:51 AM

[QUOTE=Nader Shah;11267]Dear Ahangar and others,

Yes it sounds all very nice , but 70 million people won't switch to Latin, with or without Islamic republic. I am not a supporter of Arabic or Perso-Arabic, but really it is not practical and the Unipers people are fooling you.

My main reason for wanting to keep the Perso-Arabic script is that we can all read the same text, yet pronounce it with our Tehrani, or Tajikistani, or Kabuli accent. With Latin script it will be much harder to understand each other, since all the vowels change.

So, as the Chinese use on script for mandarin and cantonese - they all read the same text even though the phonetic transcription is totally different (more like English and Greek languages), they can all read the same text.

Arabic script - because it does not require the wovels to be shown explicitly only keeps the essential information: the consonants, and leaves you free to screw around with the vowels as you like (Tehrani or otherwise) ... and when you read the text, just use your imagination with the vowels.

In fact, it is a form of data compression as we would understand it today. Don't estimate the Arabic script, as it shares roots with all Semitic scripts, and Latin is derived from Semitic scripts.

CONCLUSION: Arabic script - not quite the way PORS uses it ;) but in its standard notation - will allow us to understand each other uniformly whether in Iran, Tajikistan, or Afghanistan. We read exactly the same Arabic letters (consonants) but pronounce the vowels the way we like.

I trouble reading Tajikistani Persian in Latin or Cyrillic scripts, because so many of the vowels are different. I vote Arab in this sole exceptional case as their script erases all regional differences :D [/QUOTE]

Dear Nader Shah,

I do not agree with the intentions of the Unipers creators to completely get rid of the Arabic based script. It is just too radical.

So in no way do I propose or have I proposed in the above that the 70 million people of Iran eject Arabic based script in favor latin. I simply am for the Tajikistan adopting Latin in place Cyrillic - then it will be accessible to all of us.

Regarding the different regional accents - well at one time Parsi -e- Dari as in the Parsi used in the royal courts was considered to be the same no matter where in the Persian speaking world.

Adopting a Latin based script with vowels matching that Royal Persian could be a way to resolve the issue of which accent shall the Latin script be based on. It does not mean that we will have to loose our regional accents.

I once saw a video of the coronation of Reza Shah with Royal announcements - and it struck me at how clear and pure the accent was - very close to the classical Persian we are used to when listening to well versed reciters of Parsi poems.

After all the poems of Rumi Hafez Saadi and he other great can only really be appreciated and read properly in the Parsi e Dari pronunciations - as that is what they were written in. Although one can still get something from the poetry - it is still the Parsi e Dari that gives it real life.

Parsi e Dari is not the same as Parsi e Kabuli, although it is closer to Parsi e Kabuli than to Parsi e Tehrani. Parsi e Balkh is said to be the closest to proper Parsi e Dari.

There are many problems with the Arabic based script - in fact it is may have played a role in the creating extra distance between us since the vowles were standardized.

Ahhangar

PORS

Posted 11 July 2008 - 06:57 AM

Ahhangar-e GERAMI,

May I ask you one question? Do you know how read and write in Cyrillic? If you don't wish to answer, that's okay. I totally understand. Thanks in advance.




Pors.

Ahhangar

Posted 11 July 2008 - 07:10 AM

[QUOTE=PORS;11288]Maybe I am not being able to picture the whole scene, but honestly I don't see any point in changing to Latin. Because everybody learns english and that's basically latin. No need to change whole thing to latin and have whole bunch of herd. Although, I don't think Persian script which is based on arabic is good as well, at least it gives us an access to great works of our great thinkers and fosters our relations with Iran and modern Afghanistan. Persian based solely on arabic is no good as well, because of religious intentions of clergies all around. Salafis and movements to that nature is best (worst I mean) example. But, maybe UniPers or something to that nature might work.


Pors.[/QUOTE]


Phonetic Latin is great - it has many advantages over Cyrillic.

Cyrillic is not as agile and dynamic as phonetic Latin and so you will not be forced to make mispronunciations that are made currently due to the rigid nature of Cyrillic. Darius mentioned a few examples in one of his posts.

Also Latin is international and will mean that not only us in Afghanistan and Iran will be able to read it and understand - but complete foreigners will also be able to find it easier to learn the language. So it will bring us closer together and increase the influence of Tajikistan in Afghanistan and Iran.

In addition to adopting Latin - recognizing and reading Arabic alphabet based Persian script should be taught to children in Tajikistan - then they will be able to access texts written in Afghanistan and Iran easier.

All in all it would result in the removal of the script barriers that currently exist between us and an increase in publications.

Ahhangar

Ahhangar

Posted 11 July 2008 - 07:17 AM

[QUOTE=PORS;11295]Ahhangar-e GERAMI,

May I ask you one question? Do you know how read and write in Cyrillic? If you don't wish to answer, that's okay. I totally understand. Thanks in advance.
Pors.[/QUOTE]

No I do not know - it has never been taught to me. IF you are asking me that because you want to know what is my basis for opposing Cyrillic - the answer is that in my opinion Cyrillic is a symbol of Russification and foreign domination - and that in the current world it is no longer needed - and Latin would do the job of Cyrillic just as well if not much better and Latin is international and not just associated with the West.

Darius has pointed out some of the weakness of Cyrillic.

Also - the populations of Afghanistan and Iran would be able to read the Latin based script of Tajikistan - instead of just ignoring all current Tajikistani literature.

Ahhangar

PORS

Posted 11 July 2008 - 07:19 AM

Ahhangar-jan,

Thanks for the prompt reply. But don't you think by overcoming barrier, to leave Cyrillic, it, stepping into Latin, will actually further complicates the ties? And what about future publications and development of Latin in Tajikistan? Wouldn't it make it complex for our brothers from Iran and Afghanistan to communicate?

And one more final question: "Why not Parsi in TJ?"


Thanks,




Pors.

[QUOTE=Ahhangar;11297]Phonetic Latin is great - it has many advantages over Cyrillic.

Cyrillic is not as agile and dynamic as phonetic Latin and so you will not be forced to make mispronunciations that are made currently due to the rigid nature of Cyrillic. Darius mentioned a few examples in one of his posts.

Also Latin is international and will mean that not only us in Afghanistan and Iran will be able to read it and understand - but complete foreigners will also be able to find it easier to learn the language. So it will bring us closer together and increase the influence of Tajikistan in Afghanistan and Iran.

In addition to adopting Latin - recognizing and reading Arabic alphabet based Persian script should be taught to children in Tajikistan - then they will be able to access texts written in Afghanistan and Iran easier.

All in all it would result in the removal of the script barriers that currently exist between us and an increase in publications.

Ahhangar[/QUOTE]

PORS

Posted 11 July 2008 - 07:23 AM

Thanks. Just wanted to know to what extend you are actually aware of Cyrillic other than having bias or prejudices about it. I value your thoughts and suggestions. :)

[QUOTE=Ahhangar;11298]No I do not know - it has never been taught to me. IF you are asking me that because you want to know what is my basis for opposing Cyrillic - the answer is that in my opinion Cyrillic is a symbol of Russification and foreign domination - and that in the current world it is no longer needed - and Latin would do the job of Cyrillic just as well if not much better and Latin is international and not just associated with the West.

Darius has pointed out some of the weakness of Cyrillic.

Also - the populations of Afghanistan and Iran would be able to read the Latin based script of Tajikistan - instead of just ignoring all current Tajikistani literature.

Ahhangar[/QUOTE]

Ahhangar

Posted 11 July 2008 - 07:30 AM

[QUOTE=PORS;11300]Thanks. Just wanted to know to what extend you are actually aware of Cyrillic other than having bias or prejudices about it. I value your thoughts and suggestions. :) [/QUOTE]

Yes - I am biased against it. But there are compelling reasons to change it other than the purely symbolic distancing from Russian influence - like the lack of agility of Cyrillic in differentiating between long and short vowels and so on - and also it would make the texts written in Tajikistan more accessible to us in Afghanistan and Iran.

PORS

Posted 11 July 2008 - 07:32 AM

Don't you think Parsi can do whole lot better job than Cyrillic or Latin?

[QUOTE=Ahhangar;11302]Yes - I am biased against it. But there are compelling reasons to change it other than the purely symbolic distancing from Russian influence - like the lack of agility of Cyrillic in differentiating between long and short vowels and so on - and also it would make the texts written in Tajikistan more accessible to us in Afghanistan and Iran.[/QUOTE]

Sohrab

Posted 11 July 2008 - 07:33 AM

[QUOTE=PORS;11303]Don't you think Parsi can do whole lot better job than Cyrillic or Latin?[/QUOTE]

Dear Pors, Parsi is good, but there are alot of people who are not ready to accept it in Tajikistan, this is the main reason seeking latin as an option.

PORS

Posted 11 July 2008 - 07:34 AM

I wholeheartedly understand you Ahhangar-jan,

I appreciate your honest and straightforward answers especially when it comes to having bias and/or prejudices.

Pors.

[QUOTE=Ahhangar;11302]Yes - I am biased against it. But there are compelling reasons to change it other than the purely symbolic distancing from Russian influence - like the lack of agility of Cyrillic in differentiating between long and short vowels and so on - and also it would make the texts written in Tajikistan more accessible to us in Afghanistan and Iran.[/QUOTE]

PORS

Posted 11 July 2008 - 07:39 AM

Dear RK-jan,

Do you think people will welcome Latin? Why do you think so? I comprehend that promoting Parsi is not going to be easy in TJ, especially with its 74 year soviet history. But seeking other ways to adopt another script just because we do not put sufficient efforts and/or care to raise people's admiration toward Parsi, is not wise.

[QUOTE=Rika Khana;11304]Dear Pors, Parsi is good, but there are alot of people who are not ready to accept it in Tajikistan, this is the main reason seeking latin as an option.[/QUOTE]

PORS

Posted 11 July 2008 - 07:43 AM

Why don't we spend some time to prepare people and raise their self-awareness about Parsi? I think it would be a lot beneficial if we could spend all those times about promoting Parsi in TJ, rather than pursing other ways to change completely to another script. Please, share your comments on that. Thanks.



Pors.

[QUOTE=Rika Khana;11304]Dear Pors, Parsi is good, but there are alot of people who are not ready to accept it in Tajikistan, this is the main reason seeking latin as an option.[/QUOTE]

Sohrab

Posted 11 July 2008 - 07:50 AM

[QUOTE=PORS;11306]Dear RK-jan,

Do you think people will welcome Latin? Why do you think so? I comprehend that promoting Parsi is not going to be easy in TJ, especially with its 74 year soviet history. But seeking other ways to adopt another script just because we do not put sufficient efforts and/or care to raise people's admiration toward Parsi, is not wise.[/QUOTE]

Dear pors jan,

Cyrillic has always been the reason i have never been able to communicate with Tajiks in Tajikistan. You guys are the first in my life to communicate with in here. Perhaps the soviets have done alot of work to brainwash some people. Now they even are not ready to call the language Farsi and often resist this term. associating farsi with Islam is another clever move by them to aleniate tajiks of tajikistan from us in afghanistan and iran. Yes, it requires alot of work and effort to bring changes, but i do not think we will be able to have long last success through revolutionary ideas, instead the changes can be brought gradually. I believe having perso arabic as a subject at schools will have its huge impact in the long run if it is implemented properly, no matter if they use Latin or cyrillic. But latin is a thousand times better than cyrillic.

Ahhangar

Posted 11 July 2008 - 07:53 AM

[QUOTE=PORS;11299]Ahhangar-jan,

Thanks for the prompt reply. But don't you think by overcoming barrier, to leave Cyrillic, it, stepping into Latin, will actually further complicates the ties? And what about future publications and development of Latin in Tajikistan? Wouldn't it make it complex for our brothers from Iran and Afghanistan to communicate?

And one more final question: "Why not Parsi in TJ?"

Thanks,

Pors.[/QUOTE]

I think that Latin in Tajikistan instead of Cyrillic will make it much easier for your brothers in Afghanistan and Iran - so it would be much less complex. The people of Afghanistan and Iran are taught Latin alphabet through learning English and/or other European languages at school. From that to being able to read fluently phonetic Latin will be a small step.

"Why not Parsi in TJ?"

I am for the teaching of Arabic based Persian alphabet as it is used in Afghanistan and Iran, to the children of Tajikistan so that they are able to read texts in that script. This is not a big thing to ask and is practically quite possible.

But I believe the Arabic based script is not the best suited for the Persian language - it has made the writing system very hard to master fully without dedicating a very long time to learning all of the ways the individual words ought to be pronounced. It also many archaic rules in spelling. In effect the Arabic based script has made the FULL appreciation of the great pieces of literature an exclusive thing of the educated elite. And it has negative connotations of Islamism and past despotism - something which even managed to convince some notable Tajiks to completely abandon Persian in favor of Chaghatay in the Young Bukharan movement.

The Latin will do the job of the Cyrillic much better and still keep the Arabic away from officialdom and much easier politically than the adoption of the Arabic alphabet.

But the Arabic based script does have its value - it has become part of Persian heritage and also 90 + million use it in Afghanistan and Iran. So the skill to be able to read in that script should be taught at school in Tajikistan as well - alongside the official usage of Latin.

Ahhangar

PORS

Posted 11 July 2008 - 07:56 AM

Dear RK-jan,

Thank you for your reply. I understand your view but it's interesting for me to know why do you think that introducing Latin as an alternative way to foster our relations is going to be easier?

Pors.
[QUOTE=Rika Khana;11310]Dear pors jan,

Cyrillic has always been the reason i have never been able to communicate with Tajiks in Tajikistan. You guys are the first in my life to communicate with in here. Perhaps the soviets have done alot of work to brainwash some people. Now they even are not ready to call the language Farsi and often resist this term. associating farsi with Islam is another clever move by them to aleniate tajiks of tajikistan from us in afghanistan and iran. Yes, it requires alot of work and effort to bring changes, but i do not think we will be able to have long last success through revolutionary ideas, instead the changes can be brought gradually. I believe having perso arabic as a subject at schools will have its huge impact in the long run if it is implemented properly, no matter if they use Latin or cyrillic. But latin is a thousand times better than cyrillic.[/QUOTE]

Sohrab

Posted 11 July 2008 - 08:11 AM

[QUOTE=PORS;11312]Dear RK-jan,

Thank you for your reply. I understand your view but it's interesting for me to know why do you think that introducing Latin as an alternative way to foster our relations is going to be easier?

Pors.[/QUOTE]

I dont favour latin over perso arabic. it is easy for me and other to use perso arabic(in afghanistan and iran), i have always had problem reading farsi with latin alphabet. But latin might be more acceptable for people of tajikstan to give up cyrillic in its favour, and besides that , teaching perso arabic at schools beside latin or cyrllic, will eventually change the attitudes and the situation there.

Ahhangar

Posted 11 July 2008 - 08:29 AM

[QUOTE=Rika Khana;11313]I dont favour latin over perso arabic. it is easy for me and other to use perso arabic(in afghanistan and iran), i have always had problem reading farsi with latin alphabet. But latin might be more acceptable for people of tajikstan to give up cyrillic in its favour, and besides that , teaching perso arabic at schools beside latin or cyrllic, will eventually change the attitudes and the situation there.[/QUOTE]


The change from Perso-Cyrillic to Perso-Latin alphabet would be much easier both practically and politically in Tajikistan than a change back to the Perso-Arabic alphabet.

Politically it should not be that hard to start the introduction of teaching the ability to read Perso-Arabic script in the schools of Tajikistan. It would ensure that the Perso-Arabic script texts written in Afghanistan and Iran will be readable to the people in Tajikistan and thus it will increase their choice.

In addition to that I think that for all of us the - be it in Iran Tajikistan or Afghanistan - the increase of circulation of new idea - such as secularist concepts would be able to filter into Afghanistan and Iran - from Tajikistan.

The exchange of ideas would become easier and increase - that is positive thing.

Nader Shah

Posted 11 July 2008 - 09:00 AM

I doubt people in Tajikistan would be willing to abandon their Cyrillic script, even if the alternative is Latin instead of Perso-Aranoc. Switching to another script is very very difficult, no matter what the script is. I don't blame Tajikistan for keeping Cyrillic - I am willing to learn Cyrillic instead (and I have done so) to better communicate with them.

People of Iran are as unlikely (if not more) to abandon their script and switch to Latin, to be practical.

So, what is the solution ? Maybe Iranians can learn Cyrillic and Tajiks Perso-Arabic, at some point during schooling, say after 6th grade ?

Or maybe audio-visual means of communication (TC, audio tapes) will make the script not that big a barrier ... but then we get back to the accent which makes it difficult for us to understand each other as easily.

Other ideas ?


[QUOTE=Ahhangar;11315]The change from Perso-Cyrillic to Perso-Latin alphabet would be much easier both practically and politically in Tajikistan than a change back to the Perso-Arabic alphabet. [/QUOTE]

Ahhangar

Posted 11 July 2008 - 09:08 AM

Dorood all,


Parsi e Dari - the classic form of Parsi has the very best pronunciations - it should be the basis of a standardized phonetic Perso-Latin alphabet. The Parsi words that are not used in Parsi e Dari and only used in geographically specific areas should be studied and a standard pronunciation adopted for them.

This would be the basis for a standardized Persian phonetic alphabet - to be applied to all the Persian speaking areas.

It does not mean that the regional accents will have to disappear - it will be always be there.

Ahhangar

Posted 11 July 2008 - 09:36 AM

[QUOTE=Nader Shah;11319]I doubt people in Tajikistan would be willing to abandon their Cyrillic script, even if the alternative is Latin instead of Perso-Aranoc. Switching to another script is very very difficult, no matter what the script is. I don't blame Tajikistan for keeping Cyrillic - I am willing to learn Cyrillic instead (and I have done so) to better communicate with them.

People of Iran are as unlikely (if not more) to abandon their script and switch to Latin, to be practical.

So, what is the solution ? Maybe Iranians can learn Cyrillic and Tajiks Perso-Arabic, at some point during schooling, say after 6th grade ?

Or maybe audio-visual means of communication (TC, audio tapes) will make the script not that big a barrier ... but then we get back to the accent which makes it difficult for us to understand each other as easily.

Other ideas ?[/QUOTE]

Nader Shah,

The best solution is :

Tajikistan adopt Perso-Latin script in place of Person-Cyrillic script. t should be done gradually.


Reasons: It is better than Cyrillic in expressing the nuances. It is more international. It will make their texts accessible to other Persian speakers - without much extra effort on the part of the readers. You doubt it - since it is a huge task - I do not think the change from anything to Latin is a difficult change - especially from the foreign Cyrillic to international Latin. I am sure that in Tajikistan the students are taught to recognize Latin script through the teaching of English and maybe other European languages.

Tajikistan adopts the teaching to their students the ability to read Perso-Arabic script.

Reasons: This would complement the official Latin text - and will mean that the students of Tajikistan will be able to use Perso-Arabic written texts - increasing their choice.

Iran and Afghanistan are already familiar with the Latin alphabet (maybe their will be some requirement for extra tuition to learn the diacritics) so they can then access the Tajikistani script. We could also easily write in Perso-Latin. The teaching of Cyrillic will not be popular and will not catch on. Although through Latin - due to its international nature - better results are likely.

The replacement of Perso-Arabic in Iran and Afghanistan is hugely impracticable, and I do not desire it.

Ahhangar

Nader Shah

Posted 11 July 2008 - 09:38 AM

Ahangar Jan,

Is it possible that you are too idealistic ?

How do you expect others to change their accent to Parsi-Dari of Afghanistan, even if this accent is the closest to original Persian accent ? I mean write using the "Afghan :D pronunciation" (after all Pashtuns have changed your accent too) in Iran for example - will they ever do that ? Who will force them to do that ?

Easiest is to use Arabic script since accent becomes irrelevant. Of course, only as a way for communication between countries since it is too idealistic and impractical to expect Tajikistan to stop using Cyrillic.

Of course, if we talk numbers Iran + Afghanistan (100 million people) must switch to a different script - but in Tajikistan it is only 7 million people. But even in this scenario, Tajikistan is not going to switch (for a few decades at least) which is why I am learning some Cyrillic ;)
[QUOTE=Ahhangar;11320]Dorood all,


Parsi e Dari - the classic form of Parsi has the very best pronunciations - it should be the basis of a standardized phonetic Perso-Latin alphabet. The Parsi words that are not used in Parsi e Dari and only used in geographically specific areas should be studied and a standard pronunciation adopted for them.

This would be the basis for a standardized Persian phonetic alphabet - to be applied to all the Persian speaking areas.

It does not mean that the regional accents will have to disappear - it will be always be there.[/QUOTE]

Gul agha

Posted 11 July 2008 - 09:50 AM

[quote=Nader Shah;11324]Ahangar Jan,

Is it possible that you are too idealistic ?

How do you expect others to change their accent to Parsi-Dari of Afghanistan, even if this accent is the closest to original Persian accent ? I mean write using the "Afghan :D pronunciation" (after all Pashtuns have changed your accent too) in Iran for example - will they ever do that ? Who will force them to do that ?

Easiest is to use Arabic script since accent becomes irrelevant. Of course, only as a way for communication between countries since it is too idealistic and impractical to expect Tajikistan to stop using Cyrillic.

Of course, if we talk numbers Iran + Afghanistan (100 million people) must switch to a different script - but in Tajikistan it is only 7 million people. But even in this scenario, Tajikistan is not going to switch (for a few decades at least) which is why I am learning some Cyrillic ;) [/quote]


You didn't get what ahhangar is trying to say. He doesn't mean Afghanistan's dialect when he uses Parsi e Dari.

PARSI E DARI = PARSI E CLASSIC

Nader Shah

Posted 11 July 2008 - 09:51 AM

Well, there are two counterpoints and / or questions to your argument:

1) What percentage in TJ are really comfortable with Latin script ? I have a feeling not many people at this time (except University students) ... but I also heard that English is taught in primary school and if so this would make it easier in another generation.

2) Being familiar with Latin script is not enough to overcome intertia of decades of Cyrillic. Why ? Because all the signs have to be changed to Latin everywhere in shops and streets, and all books have to be reprinted (and of course many older people will feel left out and frustrated), people who type fast in Cyrillic now have to get used to latin keyboard, and so on and so forth. I would argue that if one has to go through so much pain, might as well do it once and do it right (i.e. switch to Perso-Arabic from the start), or not do it at all. And there could even be a mass revolt because of this :) people going on the streets and overthrowing the government ;)

[QUOTE=Ahhangar;11323]. I am sure that in Tajikistan the students are taught to recognize Latin script through the teaching of English and maybe other European languages.[/QUOTE]

Nader Shah

Posted 11 July 2008 - 09:59 AM

OK, good point. But exactly what was the classic persian accent ? I bet some experts must know this, but what was it ? Was it the same everywhere in Iranic lands even during the classic era ? If Dari means Darbari, from the court, then should we not go back to the Sassanid era's pronunciation ? Just questions ... I don't know the answers, but maybe you do :confused:
[QUOTE=Gul agha;11325]You didn't get what ahhangar is trying to say. He doesn't mean Afghanistan's dialect when he uses Parsi e Dari.

PARSI E DARI = PARSI E CLASSIC[/QUOTE]

Ahhangar

Posted 11 July 2008 - 10:01 AM

[QUOTE=Nader Shah;11324]Ahangar Jan,

Is it possible that you are too idealistic ?

How do you expect others to change their accent to Parsi-Dari of Afghanistan, even if this accent is the closest to original Persian accent ? I mean write using the "Afghan :D pronunciation" (after all Pashtuns have changed your accent too) in Iran for example - will they ever do that ? Who will force them to do that ?

Easiest is to use Arabic script since accent becomes irrelevant. Of course, only as a way for communication between countries since it is too idealistic and impractical to expect Tajikistan to stop using Cyrillic.

Of course, if we talk numbers Iran + Afghanistan (100 million people) must switch to a different script - but in Tajikistan it is only 7 million people. But even in this scenario, Tajikistan is not going to switch (for a few decades at least) which is why I am learning some Cyrillic ;) [/QUOTE]

I did not say lets all adopt the Parsi of Afghanistan. There is no such thing as the Parsi of Afghanistan anyway - there is Parsi e Kabul - Parsi e Herat Parsi e Kandahar - and so on.

Parsi e Dari is not specific to Afghanistan. Parsi e Dari is not geographically specific. Parsi e DARI is not Parsi e Kabuli - it is not used in the common speech anywhere in Afghanistan - except maybe in Balkh.

And no the Pashtun have not changed any of our accents. In Kabul they have added about 10-20 Pashto words in place of their Parsi equivalents in official documents and signs. But that is not Parsi e Dari.

The Parsi e Dari I am talking about is the Parsi used in the Royal Courts of old - it was used even in Reza Shah's time - during his coronation I think - I saw a video of it once on youtube - though I cant find it just now - I will post it.

Parsi e Dari is the proper way to recite the great texts of Maulana Hafez and Saadi.

Nothing can be forced on anyone. We can just work out what is the best for uniting us and being true to our heritage - and to then work to spread its usage through the media and arts.

Maybe some politicians and lawmakers will be won over once they see that it makes sense - especially once our economic ties increase and it forces us to become politically close - then they may want to change the law and being about legislation to speed up the process.

We just have to make sure that is ultimately beneficial to us all and true to our heritage.

Ahhangar

Ahhangar

Posted 11 July 2008 - 10:38 AM

[QUOTE=Nader Shah;11326]Well, there are two counterpoints and / or questions to your argument:

1) What percentage in TJ are really comfortable with Latin script ? I have a feeling not many people at this time (except University students) ... but I also heard that English is taught in primary school and if so this would make it easier in another generation.

2) Being familiar with Latin script is not enough to overcome intertia of decades of Cyrillic. Why ? Because all the signs have to be changed to Latin everywhere in shops and streets, and all books have to be reprinted (and of course many older people will feel left out and frustrated), people who type fast in Cyrillic now have to get used to latin keyboard, and so on and so forth. I would argue that if one has to go through so much pain, might as well do it once and do it right (i.e. switch to Perso-Arabic from the start), or not do it at all. And there could even be a mass revolt because of this :) people going on the streets and overthrowing the government ;) [/QUOTE]

Well - I think we have established that Latin is not that obscure for people in Tajikistan to not be familiar with it. Obviously there will some people unfamiliar with it. But they would have to be taught.

Regarding the changing in official signs - reprinting of books and the other consequences - yes it will require great management and a detailed plan to make the change as smooth as possible - not to mention lots of funds. Sacrifices will have to be made.

You say that the effort is so great that they should go for Perso-Arabic instead to make it worthwhile - I disagree. Perso-Arabic will be much harder to accept in Tajikistan than Perso-Latin - and Perso-Arabic has many shortcomings which they can avoid by going for Perso-Latin. Too many archaic writing rules and it makes the great works of literature in our heritage only fully appreciable to the educated elite.

I proposed that Perso-Arabic should taught as an extra subject at school so that the students are able to read it. That is the best combination. Eventually they can use officially both Perso-Latin and Perso-Arabic of they wish - but no to just Perso-Arabic.


Ahhangar

Sohrab

Posted 11 July 2008 - 11:06 AM

[QUOTE=Ahhangar;11315]The change from Perso-Cyrillic to Perso-Latin alphabet would be much easier both practically and politically in Tajikistan than a change back to the Perso-Arabic alphabet.

.[/QUOTE]

That is exactly my point. And having farsi alphabet as an extra subject will bring even more benifit. But if there is cyrillic, the problem will remain forever.

Sohrab

Posted 11 July 2008 - 11:13 AM

[QUOTE=Nader Shah;11324]Ahangar Jan,

Is it possible that you are too idealistic ?

How do you expect others to change their accent to Parsi-Dari of Afghanistan, even if this accent is the closest to original Persian accent ? I mean write using the "Afghan :D pronunciation" (after all Pashtuns have changed your accent too) in Iran for example - will they ever do that ? Who will force them to do that ?

Easiest is to use Arabic script since accent becomes irrelevant. Of course, only as a way for communication between countries since it is too idealistic and impractical to expect Tajikistan to stop using Cyrillic.

Of course, if we talk numbers Iran + Afghanistan (100 million people) must switch to a different script - but in Tajikistan it is only 7 million people. But even in this scenario, Tajikistan is not going to switch (for a few decades at least) which is why I am learning some Cyrillic ;) [/QUOTE]

Dear Nadirshah,

That is not right, our accent has never been influenced by Pushtoo. we have got alot of different accents, even they differ in each province. there might be some pushtoo vocabulary there, but that is not alot. As per rest of your comment, i do totally agree with you. For afghanistna and iran, sticking to perso alphabet is the wisest way, if we think of changing the alphabet in these 2 countries, it will make our lives even more difficult. Besides that it is also not practical and possible. No one will accept that. If we talk about latin, it is because of Tajikistan. they also need to make some efforts to undrestand us, it is not only upon us to make the moves.

Kambiz

Posted 11 July 2008 - 11:30 AM

There is no need to create a new alphabet for our language. That will differentiate us even further and takes us farther away from our ancestors' works. We are quite happy with our existing Persian alphabet. It could be learnt and taught quite easily, at least easier than Mandarin or Japanese.

[QUOTE=Ahhangar;11320]Dorood all,


Parsi e Dari - the classic form of Parsi has the very best pronunciations - it should be the basis of a standardized phonetic Perso-Latin alphabet. The Parsi words that are not used in Parsi e Dari and only used in geographically specific areas should be studied and a standard pronunciation adopted for them.

This would be the basis for a standardized Persian phonetic alphabet - to be applied to all the Persian speaking areas.

It does not mean that the regional accents will have to disappear - it will be always be there.[/QUOTE]

Sohrab

Posted 11 July 2008 - 11:39 AM

[QUOTE=Darius;11334]There is no need to create a new alphabet for our language. That will differentiate us even further and takes us farther away from our ancestors' works. We are quite happy with our existing Persian alphabet. It could be learnt and taught quite easily, at least easier than Mandarin or Japanese.[/QUOTE]

Dear Daruis,

Since all these alphabet talks here is becasue of Tajikisan, what is the general mode in tajikistan regarding the alphabet? are they happy the way it is? do they feel to bring some changes? what is their opinion about communicating with us and understanding us in iran and afghanistan?

Kambiz

Posted 11 July 2008 - 03:29 PM

Dear Rika Khana,

Unfortunately, the issue is not a major topic for many people in tajikistan. They really don't care and most of them would like to keep the existing easy but wrong Cyrillic alphabet. But the number of young intellectuals who advocate for our return to the Persian script is growing fast. The more people get aware of their national identity the more they want to quit Cyrillic and get back to Persian.

[QUOTE=Rika Khana;11335]Dear Daruis,

Since all these alphabet talks here is becasue of Tajikisan, what is the general mode in tajikistan regarding the alphabet? are they happy the way it is? do they feel to bring some changes? what is their opinion about communicating with us and understanding us in iran and afghanistan?[/QUOTE]

Sohrab

Posted 11 July 2008 - 03:36 PM

[QUOTE=Darius;11349]Dear Rika Khana,

Unfortunately, the issue is not a major topic for many people in tajikistan. They really don't care and most of them would like to keep the existing easy but wrong Cyrillic alphabet. But the number of young intellectuals who advocate for our return to the Persian script is growing fast. The more people get aware of their national identity the more they want to quit Cyrillic and get back to Persian.[/QUOTE]

Dear Darius,

Honestly i dont have any hostility with cyrillic, but i see it as a barrier between us. Do they sometimes think how to make contact with us on this side of the river? Perhaps we need to make more contacts with each other to make everyone aware how important it is for us to understand each other. for example: joint concernts of the singers, some other exchanges in entertainment field. i think they had made a film about Ahmad Zahir in Tajikistan, Tolo Tv have always been hosting Tajik singers, some other personalities in Acadamy of Persian language in Tehran from Tajikistan can also push hard to make their voices heard. we need to increase all these activities and bring even more variety to it. I am sure this will have a good long term and long last impact.

Ahhangar

Posted 11 July 2008 - 09:28 PM

[QUOTE=Darius;11334]There is no need to create a new alphabet for our language. That will differentiate us even further and takes us farther away from our ancestors' works. We are quite happy with our existing Persian alphabet. It could be learnt and taught quite easily, at least easier than Mandarin or Japanese.[/QUOTE]

The existing Pero-Arabic script alphabet is OK - but it has many shortcomings. It takes far too long to master and so is not as effective as Perso-Latin in allowing many people to fully appreciate the great works of our literature. I am not advocating the complete removal of Perso-Arabic - I just want a a standardized Perso-Latin alphabet alongside it - and in Tajikistan specifically I am of the opinion that the Perso-Cyrillic script ought to be replaced with Perso-Latin script as the official scripts of the country and that Perso-Arabic should be taught as an extra subject at the schools.

An alphabet based on Parsi e Dari is not a new a alphabet in my eyes - it is in keeping with the great works of our literature by Maulana - Saadi - Hafez - Attar - Bedil - Sanaiye - Rudaki - and so on. Honoring that as the standard bearer of a formal phonetic Parsi for all Parsi speakers would bring us together as opposed to divide us. But the question is whether the politicians will want to adopt that standard in all the countries - they may not want to. This is how it was originally before the mountain accents of the Pamir were institutionalized as an official language - Tajiki.

All of the regional accents would be treated as only regional accents nothing more. We can create phonetic catalogs for them so that they are not lost forever - and add words from the regional accents to the standardized Perso-Latin where a Parsi e Dari equivalent does not exist. Anyhow - the differences in pronunciations will still be there - even after a phonetic based alphabet.

This is a complex project that needs to be investigated carried by several academic institutions - free from political interference.

Ahhangar

Ahhangar

Posted 11 July 2008 - 10:02 PM

[QUOTE=Darius;11349]Dear Rika Khana,

Unfortunately, the issue is not a major topic for many people in tajikistan. They really don't care and most of them would like to keep the existing easy but wrong Cyrillic alphabet. But the number of young intellectuals who advocate for our return to the Persian script is growing fast. The more people get aware of their national identity the more they want to quit Cyrillic and get back to Persian.[/QUOTE]

Dear Darius,

When you say that 'the more people get aware of their national identity the more they want to quit Cyrillic and get back to Persian' - I assume you mean that they will move back from Perso-Cyrillic script to Perso-Arabic script.

I advocate the teaching of Perso-Arabic script as an extra subject at school - but the adoption of Perso-Latin script in place of Perso-Cyrillic as the official script of Tajikistan. I oppose the idea of rejecting both Perso-Cyrillic and Perso-Latin in favour of Perso-Arabic as the official script of Tajikistan.

I think that the change from Perso-Cyrillic to Perso-Arabic would be quite hard - both politically and intellectually.

Tajikistan being a secular nation - its whole ethos being built on a rejection of the tyrannical clergy backed despotic rulers whom misused Islam to exploit the people - and so the return to the Perso-Arabic of that time may just have too many undesirable political connotations and thus be rejected outright.

Perso-Cyrillic is more phonetic than Perso-Arabic - it has made the accessing of great literature easier for the people - even though there are some inherent mistakes/weaknesses in the phonetic structure of Perso-Cyrillic - it is still easier to master than Perso-Arabic script. This has made it easier for people to become educated in Tajikistan and a reason why such great leaps in the rate of literacy occurred after the adoption of such a method. In terms of percentages - I would dare to say that Tajikistan is better than even Iran in literacy. Perso-Arabic - to master properly requires many years of hard study - some say more than 9 years to fully master - something that proportionally very few achieve in Iran and Afghanistan.

A phonetic based script has many advantages. I just think that these advantages can be kept and the shortcomings of the Perso-Cyrillic can be overcome by adopting Perso-Latin in Tajikistan. Perso - Latin is more agile phonetically than Perso-Cyrillic - and much more international. It is easily accessible to the educated people of Iran and Afghanistan and makes the job of learning to read/write Persian much easier for non-Persian speakers.

SO - as the people of Tajikistan are already used to a phonetic based script - going back to a less phonetic script - like Perso Arabic would be very hard on them - but going forward to improve the existing phonetic weaknesses through the adoption of Perso-Latin would be a relief.

In addition to the adoption of Perso-Latin as the official script - Perso Arabic script ought to be taught as an extra subject at school. The Perso - Latin will make the mastering of the Perso-Arabic much easier - and the students of Tajikistan will be able to access the Perso-Arabic texts of Iran and Afghanistan as a result.

The result will be a Tajikistan in which the school graduates can read/write in Perso-Arabic without the negative political connotations attached with adopting Perso-Arabic officially. The Perso-Latin script would greatly ease the mastering of Persian literature and get rid of a symbol of Russian domination and it would make the official scripts in Tajikistan readable to other Persian speakers - namely in Iran and Afghanistan.

It is a win-win situation.

Ahhangar

Ahhangar

Posted 11 July 2008 - 11:44 PM

[QUOTE=Rika Khana;11332]That is exactly my point. And having farsi alphabet as an extra subject will bring even more benifit. But if there is cyrillic, the problem will remain forever.[/QUOTE]


Yes the best combination is just that:

Adoption of Perso-Latin script in the place of Perso-Cyrillic as the official script of Tajikistan - with the adding of the extra subject of reading and writing in Perso-Arabic script at school.

Politically it would be suitable and practicable whilst increasing the access of Persian literature in the Perso-Arabic script for the students of Tajikistan and the access of the Persian literature in Perso-Latin script for students of Iran and Afghanistan.

Ahhangar

Kambiz

Posted 12 July 2008 - 12:56 AM

Dear Ahhangar,

When I say 'Persian script' I mean the only script used for our Persian writing since the 8th century. If you want to emphasize the origin of each and every script then Russian will have to be known as Greek since it's originated from the Greek script.

And I don't really see any need to complicate our educational situation with introducing yet another 'Perso-Latin' script. We've undergone the process already and Tajikistan wrote in Latin from 1930 till 1940. If you read those writings you'd realize how uncomfortable and incompatible it was for our Persian. Exactly in the same way as Cyrillic. You have to be one of us who read both Persian and Cyrillic to understand what I mean. Cyrillic is simply not made for Persian. Have you ever wondered why most of us Tajikistanis cannot speak a fluent Persian and sound so artificial? Yes. Just because of the Latin and Cyrillic scripts that distroyed the phonetical structure of the language that had taken shape during a millenium. I have explained already in the other thread that none of our Soviet poets are perfect in command of Persian. Some of them could never be known as a poet in the Persian sense of the word, despite receiving numerous official prizes and titles.

You can hear that in our songs as well. For instance, there is a beautiful old song by Maghfirat Hamrahqulova dedicated to the city of Dushanbe. It is called "Gulhoi Dushanbe" (Golhaye Doshanbe - Dushanbe Flowers). The chorus sings: Guulhoooi Duuuushanbeee, withouth realizing that the word "gul" with a long "u" has got an absolutely different meaning (gullible) and the word "du" (do) is not pronounced with a long "u" either. It's totally confusing for other Persian-speakers. The Russians have succeeded in separating our Persian from the rest of the entity a great deal just by introducing this weird Cyrillic script.

The difficulty of learning the Persian script cannot serve as an excuse either. Do you really think that Persian is more complicated than, say, Japanese? CIA Factbook says that 99% of their population are literate. Or China, the most populous country of the world, enjoys 90.9% of literacy rate as of 2006. Tajikistan was a part of the Soviet Union where literacy was a must. The Soviet dictatorship would take you to prison if you didn't want to send your children to school. However, straight after the collapse Tajikistan's literacy rate (100%) started sliding down and now it is around 95%. Whereas Georgia with its peculiar script still maintains 100% of literacy rate. As you can see, the script has not much to do with the literacy rate. It is mainly the matter of government's ability. Iran is doing quite well after it introduced a strict nationwide literacy campaign.

The Persian script is being taught wee hours in Tajikistani schools already, although it is not well-programmed nor is it taken seriously. I suggest to increase their hours and use both Cyrillic and Persian in parallel for at least 3 decades before dropping Cyrillic altogether. The process had started in 1991 and was interrupted by the Rahman regime in 1994.

[QUOTE=Ahhangar;11360]Dear Darius,

When you say that 'the more people get aware of their national identity the more they want to quit Cyrillic and get back to Persian' - I assume you mean that they will move back from Perso-Cyrillic script to Perso-Arabic script.

I advocate the teaching of Perso-Arabic script as an extra subject at school - but the adoption of Perso-Latin script in place of Perso-Cyrillic as the official script of Tajikistan. I oppose the idea of rejecting both Perso-Cyrillic and Perso-Latin in favour of Perso-Arabic as the official script of Tajikistan.

I think that the change from Perso-Cyrillic to Perso-Arabic would be quite hard - both politically and intellectually.

Tajikistan being a secular nation - its whole ethos being built on a rejection of the tyrannical clergy backed despotic rulers whom misused Islam to exploit the people - and so the return to the Perso-Arabic of that time may just have too many undesirable political connotations and thus be rejected outright.

Perso-Cyrillic is more phonetic than Perso-Arabic - it has made the accessing of great literature easier for the people - even though there are some inherent mistakes/weaknesses in the phonetic structure of Perso-Cyrillic - it is still easier to master than Perso-Arabic script. This has made it easier for people to become educated in Tajikistan and a reason why such great leaps in the rate of literacy occurred after the adoption of such a method. In terms of percentages - I would dare to say that Tajikistan is better than even Iran in literacy. Perso-Arabic - to master properly requires many years of hard study - some say more than 9 years to fully master - something that proportionally very few achieve in Iran and Afghanistan.

A phonetic based script has many advantages. I just think that these advantages can be kept and the shortcomings of the Perso-Cyrillic can be overcome by adopting Perso-Latin in Tajikistan. Perso - Latin is more agile phonetically than Perso-Cyrillic - and much more international. It is easily accessible to the educated people of Iran and Afghanistan and makes the job of learning to read/write Persian much easier for non-Persian speakers.

SO - as the people of Tajikistan are already used to a phonetic based script - going back to a less phonetic script - like Perso Arabic would be very hard on them - but going forward to improve the existing phonetic weaknesses through the adoption of Perso-Latin would be a relief.

In addition to the adoption of Perso-Latin as the official script - Perso Arabic script ought to be taught as an extra subject at school. The Perso - Latin will make the mastering of the Perso-Arabic much easier - and the students of Tajikistan will be able to access the Perso-Arabic texts of Iran and Afghanistan as a result.

The result will be a Tajikistan in which the school graduates can read/write in Perso-Arabic without the negative political connotations attached with adopting Perso-Arabic officially. The Perso-Latin script would greatly ease the mastering of Persian literature and get rid of a symbol of Russian domination and it would make the official scripts in Tajikistan readable to other Persian speakers - namely in Iran and Afghanistan.

It is a win-win situation.

Ahhangar[/QUOTE]

Kambiz

Posted 12 July 2008 - 01:12 AM

Dear brothers,

Phonetical structure of Latin requires you to characterize your accent or dialect or whatever in your own way. That's why UniPers is going to be a real mess and not Uni at all. Think of spreading the old good Persian script instead please.

Ahhangar

Posted 13 July 2008 - 12:41 AM

[QUOTE=Darius;11371]Dear brothers,

Phonetical structure of Latin requires you to characterize your accent or dialect or whatever in your own way. That's why UniPers is going to be a real mess and not Uni at all. Think of spreading the old good Persian script instead please.[/QUOTE]

Indeed the issue of accents is important. I think that a phonetical Parsi e Dari would be the best option for all Parsi speakers. And we should catalog the regional accents phonetically aswell - but generally not use them in the standard script except in exceptional cases.

This issue will force us to have a standardized script - so that it is read the same everywhere - and in my opinion the only worthy accent is the Parsi e Dari - as it represents the very best of our language - Qand e Parsi as they say!

Perso - Arabic has too many shortcomings to be still acceptable as the sole way of writing script. It takes too long to master. Perso-Latin alongside it would greatly enhance things without loosing the sentimentality of Perso-Arabic based script.

I think there is a strong case for having a Perso-Latin alphabet that is phonetically Parsi e Dari - as the standardized Parsi for all Parsi speakers.

Ahhangar

Ahhangar

Posted 13 July 2008 - 03:22 AM

[QUOTE=Darius;11369]Dear Ahhangar,

When I say 'Persian script' I mean the only script used for our Persian writing since the 8th century. If you want to emphasize the origin of each and every script then Russian will have to be known as Greek since it's originated from the Greek script.

And I don't really see any need to complicate our educational situation with introducing yet another 'Perso-Latin' script. We've undergone the process already and Tajikistan wrote in Latin from 1930 till 1940. If you read those writings you'd realize how uncomfortable and incompatible it was for our Persian. Exactly in the same way as Cyrillic. You have to be one of us who read both Persian and Cyrillic to understand what I mean. Cyrillic is simply not made for Persian. Have you ever wondered why most of us Tajikistanis cannot speak a fluent Persian and sound so artificial? Yes. Just because of the Latin and Cyrillic scripts that distroyed the phonetical structure of the language that had taken shape during a millenium. I have explained already in the other thread that none of our Soviet poets are perfect in command of Persian. Some of them could never be known as a poet in the Persian sense of the word, despite receiving numerous official prizes and titles.

You can hear that in our songs as well. For instance, there is a beautiful old song by Maghfirat Hamrahqulova dedicated to the city of Dushanbe. It is called "Gulhoi Dushanbe" (Golhaye Doshanbe - Dushanbe Flowers). The chorus sings: Guulhoooi Duuuushanbeee, withouth realizing that the word "gul" with a long "u" has got an absolutely different meaning (gullible) and the word "du" (do) is not pronounced with a long "u" either. It's totally confusing for other Persian-speakers. The Russians have succeeded in separating our Persian from the rest of the entity a great deal just by introducing this weird Cyrillic script.

The difficulty of learning the Persian script cannot serve as an excuse either. Do you really think that Persian is more complicated than, say, Japanese? CIA Factbook says that 99% of their population are literate. Or China, the most populous country of the world, enjoys 90.9% of literacy rate as of 2006. Tajikistan was a part of the Soviet Union where literacy was a must. The Soviet dictatorship would take you to prison if you didn't want to send your children to school. However, straight after the collapse Tajikistan's literacy rate (100%) started sliding down and now it is around 95%. Whereas Georgia with its peculiar script still maintains 100% of literacy rate. As you can see, the script has not much to do with the literacy rate. It is mainly the matter of government's ability. Iran is doing quite well after it introduced a strict nationwide literacy campaign.

The Persian script is being taught wee hours in Tajikistani schools already, although it is not well-programmed nor is it taken seriously. I suggest to increase their hours and use both Cyrillic and Persian in parallel for at least 3 decades before dropping Cyrillic altogether. The process had started in 1991 and was interrupted by the Rahman regime in 1994.[/QUOTE]



Dear Darius,


I do not know why you feel that I want to keep Cyrillic and that you feel the need to show me again and again its problems. Thansk you for doing so - but it is really unnecessary when I have already accepted that Perso-Cyrillic is unsuitable.

I want Perso-Cyrillic to be completely removed and with it the the erraser of the silly OOOOOOOOOOO in place AA in all Tajiki speech. I really can't stand most Tajik male singers - in the same way I do not like the overly extenuated accents of Tehran. I get really annoyed when I see software and castes that purport to teach Persian - teaching Tehrani accent Persian.

If you think that by simply adopting the almost vowless Perso-Arabic will restore the OOOOOOOOOO into more realistic sounder AA - I will tell you it is not enough.

Perso-Latin - phonetically correct PARSI e DARI would restore the Russified accent in Tajikistan more effectively than by adopting Perso-Arabic script alone.

Perso-Latin has many advantages to it which Tajikistan has a practicable chance of attaining but to throw that away - it would be a big shame.

You have not made an effective argument for opposing outright Perso-Latin . Do you not think it has any advantages over Perso-Arabic?

Regarding literacy and type of script - I said a script that makes it easier to master the language is more effective in increasing literacy - there is no denying that. Citing Japan as an example is a non stater since Japan has the resources to teach the most archaic scripts to its children - but when one looks at Japan deeper - one can see that even they have realized the benefits of a phonetic latin script - they teach it at school as a compulsory subject. Infact they have 4 different scripts.

Using Geogia's success of keeping 100% literacy with their peculiar script as opposed to Tajikistan's drop from 100% literacy to 95% with its Cyrillic - as justification for officially reverting to PERSO-ARABIC in Tajikistan is quite ambitious to say the least. There are countless other factors for the 100% of one and the 95% of the other.

What I advocate is simple:

Perso-Arabic as an extra subject at school, enabling the students to read and write in it.

Perso-Latin - phonetically based upon classical Parsi, Parsi e Dari - as the official script of the nation. This would make the mastering of the mastering of the language so much easier. Reading poetry correctly with the right amount of emphasis on the vowels is very hard with Perso-Arabic - it literally takes 9+ years. But with a phonetically correct alphabet.

This combination will make Tajikistan truly a place where the people speak their own classical Persian - being able to read Perso-Arabic better than those in Iran and Afghanistan due to the additional knowledge of Perso-Latin script based phonetically upon classical Persian. It would pave the way for standardization of Persian between Afghanistan and Tajikistan.

What could be better than that?

Ahhangar

Nader Shah

Posted 13 July 2008 - 03:31 AM

But you can stand the female ones, right ?
:D
[QUOTE=Ahhangar;11416]I really can't stand most Tajik male singers[/QUOTE]

Ahhangar

Posted 13 July 2008 - 05:18 AM

[QUOTE=Nader Shah;11417]But you can stand the female ones, right ?
:D [/QUOTE]

LOL - Shabnam Suraya and Maniza are good - their accents are not too ruined too much by the OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.

I am talking about their accent mind - not their gender ! lol

Afrasiab

Posted 13 July 2008 - 04:31 PM

Translation of original article

F.Kholbek: Why Tajiks should accept the Persian alphabet?

Discussions about transition to the Persian alphabet in Tajikistan going when all world goes on a way of integration. Are integrated all. For example, nations of Europe are united in the European Union, where now 28 countries-members (in their 1957 was six). People wish to be together, to make common cause, develop, live better.

But our Tajikistan costs on a crossroads. Being on political and economic feasibility in space of the Central Asia and a member of such organizations as Shanhay Org., the United Nations, etc., it was not defined yet in cultural space. As it is easy to 7 million people to be dissolved in the Chinese billion, Russian and Turkic millions. Our natural cultural space is Afghanistan and Iran.

Therefore, to discussion about transition from cyrillics on the Persian alphabet once again from the end 80 it is possible to consider returning natural.

In view of available acute problems, today there are all attributes of crisis of the Tajik nation. For example, destruction of the Tajik school of the Soviet sample and the unsuccessful policy of the state in this sphere have led to growth of illiteracy which, in turn, promotes prosperity of immorality, corruption, etc. Before us there is an eternal question: what to do?

Some people suggest to return to our ancestors alphabet. This idea has supporters and opponents. And both those, and others search for arguments in history. In other words, driving a car, they look only in a mirror of a back kind. At such driving our machine will inevitably be broken.

Supporters of this idea result arguments, that the Persian alphabet will open to us a way to "libraries" of our antiquity, modern Iran and Afghanistan, will facilitate access through persian mass-media in world mass-media. Opponents as one "political scientist", beg to not leave from Russia. They think that this step will lead to destabilization of conditions. In their opinion, today we too differ from Iranians and Afghans. I do not know, what motivations has these ideas.

To Iran and Afghanistan we are necessary so, as how much necessary to Russia, the USA and another. But all - Russia, China, the USA and all to whom not laziness - will try, that we did not become the Islamic state, as they. Politically they are closed for us. Even economically everyone will interfere with introduction of the Iranian capital in our economy. It does not depend on us. These are rules of "the big game" which to us to not change. And let powers at us will borrow in the game. Only let do not specify with whom to us to be, and with whom to not be. If they are our partners, Iran and Afghanistan - our family. They are not neighbours, they are our brothers. These are the countries where we are children of Rudaki, instead of Ravshan and Jumshud (Russian comics about Tajik migrants). With them we can study in language, dialogue, culture, morals. With them we are visitors and brothers, instead of "churki".

As to Russia not different what alphabet Tajiks use. Armenians and the Georgian has different alphabet? But it is impossible to tell, that Russia is friends of Armenia and at enmity with Georgia because of the alphabet. Russia is friends of Iran, they are not stirred by the Persian writing. It is possible! Then why our alphabet should stir to our attitudes with Moscow? For Russia it is important, that Tajikistan was the friendly country and the reliable partner. Russia are necessary greater economic objects, "Window", military base in Tajikistan which should provide its leadership in CA, the CIS and ShOS.

Not clearly one: transition to the Persian alphabet is not directed on rapproachement with Iran and Afghanistan, and against Russia. We do it not for Iranians and Afghans, and not against Russian. We do it for ourselves. We are Tajiks, and Tajiks, fortunately or to misfortune - iranians, moslems. As speak, parents do not choose.

Other party of a question: many our Turkic neighbours pass to the latin alphabet. It is not necessary to deceive itself that in Uzbekistan this project has failed. Official Tashkent will not dare to be dishonoured before the world. They will finish business. And how to be to us? To pass on Persian or to be content with cyrillics? Writing which except for Slavs ANYBODY in the world does not use.

Show, please, Russian, Ukrainians, or other Slav whom read the Tajik text on cyrillics and would understand though a word? Cyrillics - for Slavs is alphabet, and for us - a transcription. Words about transition to a Latin and the Persian writing therefore sound.

Arabian the schedule was and remains our natural alphabet. The great property of our nation is created on it. This alphabet so did not serve anybody, as served us. We shall be compelled to pass to this alphabet, sooner or later. If we shall not make it, our children will make. Therefore now before us should cost only one question: when and how to pass? Simply process should go under the control, over any agiotage.

Fakhriddin Kholbek
Tajik newspaper Asia plus (www.asia-plus.tj)

Sohrab

Posted 13 July 2008 - 04:39 PM

Good one.

Dushanbe

Posted 13 July 2008 - 05:05 PM

[QUOTE=Rika Khana;11453]Good one.[/QUOTE]

:rolleyes: :confused:

Sohrab

Posted 13 July 2008 - 06:13 PM

[QUOTE=Dushanbe;11454] :rolleyes: :confused: [/QUOTE]

:confused: :rolleyes:

Ahhangar

Posted 14 July 2008 - 12:26 AM

[QUOTE=Afrasiab;11452]Translation of original article

F.Kholbek: Why Tajiks should accept the Persian alphabet?

Discussions about transition to the Persian alphabet in Tajikistan going when all world goes on a way of integration. Are integrated all. For example, nations of Europe are united in the European Union, where now 28 countries-members (in their 1957 was six). People wish to be together, to make common cause, develop, live better.

But our Tajikistan costs on a crossroads. Being on political and economic feasibility in space of the Central Asia and a member of such organizations as Shanhay Org., the United Nations, etc., it was not defined yet in cultural space. As it is easy to 7 million people to be dissolved in the Chinese billion, Russian and Turkic millions. Our natural cultural space is Afghanistan and Iran.

Therefore, to discussion about transition from cyrillics on the Persian alphabet once again from the end 80 it is possible to consider returning natural.

In view of available acute problems, today there are all attributes of crisis of the Tajik nation. For example, destruction of the Tajik school of the Soviet sample and the unsuccessful policy of the state in this sphere have led to growth of illiteracy which, in turn, promotes prosperity of immorality, corruption, etc. Before us there is an eternal question: what to do?

Some people suggest to return to our ancestors alphabet. This idea has supporters and opponents. And both those, and others search for arguments in history. In other words, driving a car, they look only in a mirror of a back kind. At such driving our machine will inevitably be broken.

Supporters of this idea result arguments, that the Persian alphabet will open to us a way to "libraries" of our antiquity, modern Iran and Afghanistan, will facilitate access through persian mass-media in world mass-media. Opponents as one "political scientist", beg to not leave from Russia. They think that this step will lead to destabilization of conditions. In their opinion, today we too differ from Iranians and Afghans. I do not know, what motivations has these ideas.

To Iran and Afghanistan we are necessary so, as how much necessary to Russia, the USA and another. But all - Russia, China, the USA and all to whom not laziness - will try, that we did not become the Islamic state, as they. Politically they are closed for us. Even economically everyone will interfere with introduction of the Iranian capital in our economy. It does not depend on us. These are rules of "the big game" which to us to not change. And let powers at us will borrow in the game. Only let do not specify with whom to us to be, and with whom to not be. If they are our partners, Iran and Afghanistan - our family. They are not neighbours, they are our brothers. These are the countries where we are children of Rudaki, instead of Ravshan and Jumshud (Russian comics about Tajik migrants). With them we can study in language, dialogue, culture, morals. With them we are visitors and brothers, instead of "churki".

As to Russia not different what alphabet Tajiks use. Armenians and the Georgian has different alphabet? But it is impossible to tell, that Russia is friends of Armenia and at enmity with Georgia because of the alphabet. Russia is friends of Iran, they are not stirred by the Persian writing. It is possible! Then why our alphabet should stir to our attitudes with Moscow? For Russia it is important, that Tajikistan was the friendly country and the reliable partner. Russia are necessary greater economic objects, "Window", military base in Tajikistan which should provide its leadership in CA, the CIS and ShOS.

Not clearly one: transition to the Persian alphabet is not directed on rapproachement with Iran and Afghanistan, and against Russia. We do it not for Iranians and Afghans, and not against Russian. We do it for ourselves. We are Tajiks, and Tajiks, fortunately or to misfortune - iranians, moslems. As speak, parents do not choose.

Other party of a question: many our Turkic neighbours pass to the latin alphabet. It is not necessary to deceive itself that in Uzbekistan this project has failed. Official Tashkent will not dare to be dishonoured before the world. They will finish business. And how to be to us? To pass on Persian or to be content with cyrillics? Writing which except for Slavs ANYBODY in the world does not use.

Show, please, Russian, Ukrainians, or other Slav whom read the Tajik text on cyrillics and would understand though a word? Cyrillics - for Slavs is alphabet, and for us - a transcription. Words about transition to a Latin and the Persian writing therefore sound.

Arabian the schedule was and remains our natural alphabet. The great property of our nation is created on it. This alphabet so did not serve anybody, as served us. We shall be compelled to pass to this alphabet, sooner or later. If we shall not make it, our children will make. Therefore now before us should cost only one question: when and how to pass? Simply process should go under the control, over any agiotage.

Fakhriddin Kholbek
Tajik newspaper Asia plus (www.asia-plus.tj)
[/QUOTE]


Dear Afraiseb,

Thank you for posting this article. It is great to get more perspectives on this debate - and I hope you post some more similar arguments so that we can be aware how developed the debate about script is in Tajikistan.

Indeed the argument for keeping Cyrillic is a weak one. Excuses that getting rid of it will have political consequences with Russia are null. Russia's relationship is based on much more than Cyrillic.

I think the more Tajikistan asserts itself with confidence the more respect it will gain in the international community.

Having said that - I do not think that in Tajikistan the thinking should be limited to adopting a single script. Perso-Latin script alongside the Perso-Arabic script. My preferred combination is that Perso-Latin be the official script and the Perso-Arabic taught at school as an extra subject.

The more international Perso-Latin script - phonetically based upon Parsi e Dari - will make the mastering of the language and the accessing of the meanings of the great works of literature much easier and available to many people.

The teaching of the Perso-Arabic will restore the ability to read the past works and those produced in Afghanistan and Iran.

The end result will be a population that reads - speaks - and writes better Persian than both Afghanistan and Iran and much more aware of the meanings of the great pieces of literature.

Ahhangar

Dushanbe

Posted 14 July 2008 - 01:00 AM

[QUOTE=Ahhangar;11462]


My preferred combination is that Perso-Latin be the official script and the Perso-Arabic taught at school as an extra subject.

The teaching of the Perso-Arabic will restore the ability to read the past works and those produced in Afghanistan and Iran.

The end result will be a population that reads - speaks - and writes better Persian than both Afghanistan and Iran and much more aware of the meanings of the great pieces of literature.

Ahhangar[/QUOTE]

Yes, Ahhangar, I support your ideas about this issue.
So far you seem to be one of the most intelligent persons in this forum. We need to learn Arabic as subject at schools but Latin as official.

Ahhangar

Posted 14 July 2008 - 01:54 AM

[QUOTE=Dushanbe;11463]Yes, Ahhangar, I support your ideas about this issue.
So far you seem to be one of the most intelligent persons in this forum. We need to learn Arabic as subject at schools but Latin as official.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the vote of confidence brother.

Do you agree that the Perso-Latin scriptthat should be adopted officially in Tajikistan should be phonetically based upon classical Persian - 'Parsi e Dari' ?

That is the element that will make Persian of Tajikistan the very best of Persian - Qandi e Parsi - and make the understanding of the great works of literature that much easier for the majority of the population and thus increase their sense of heritage. It will also make them closer to the official Parsi in Afghanistan - thus increasing the sense of togetherness and influence on Afghanistan.

In the past it was the Parsi e Dari that was universal - and held sway in all courts - no matter where in between Bengal and Sarajevo. The colloquial local accents did not feature in official correspondences that much. It is our ultimate tool of unity.

Ahhangar

Kambiz

Posted 15 July 2008 - 12:16 AM

Dear Ahhangar,

Your arguments for the sake of Latin alphabet do not sound convincing at all. As said before, Tajikistan has experienced it already and we didn't witness any success in reading and reciting Persian poems in a better way. Quite the contrary.

I'm not sure what is obstructing your way to understand what I meant in my previous posting. I try to elaborate it again.

I'm happy that you've dropped your relative support for Cyrillic. It was obvious in your earlier messages. However, Latin has got exactly the same lapses for CA Persian as Cyrillic. For example, the word combination 'Soviet Tajikistan' was transliterated as 'Tojikistoni Soveti'. The word 'mother' as 'modar'. And if you cherish a dream to introduce 'aa' for 'alef-e mamdud' in Tajikistan, it is not going to happen after such a long existence of 'o' replacement. People will simply not fathom out what you mean.

In order to institutionalize Latin as our official script you have to define the official accent. In Soviet times it was Bukharan-Khojandi (or Northern) accent of Tajikistan with all its peculiarities. It will further distance our accent from the rest of the Persian-speakers as we've seen already. Persian is the only script that gives us the utmost unity in language. Anybody could pronounce words in her/his accent. If you mean conserving a certain accent as the official one, it is not going to happen either. Even in Tajikistan it did not. The result was an artificial literary language accepted as the standard Tajiki. That's why when you speak to someone from CA in Persian their accent sounds unreal and sometimes even weird.

The Persian language is rich in accents and I think it embelishes and beautifies our language rather than opposite. Our great poets and writers have written in Persian and none of our Persian-speaking brethren have accepted Latin as their official script. So, why do you want a further differentiation between us? We need a single script for learning our language in its original sript in a due way and for fomenting our unity. But your suggestion - besides sounding too unrealistic to me - could trigger a further separation between us. A different script is the main argument of supporters of the different name for our language (Tajiki). By changing it to Latin their argument will be strengthened and they will have an upper hand in keeping our language apart from the rest of its body.

Hope you got me this time.

[QUOTE=Ahhangar;11416]Dear Darius,


I do not know why you feel that I want to keep Cyrillic and that you feel the need to show me again and again its problems. Thansk you for doing so - but it is really unnecessary when I have already accepted that Perso-Cyrillic is unsuitable.

I want Perso-Cyrillic to be completely removed and with it the the erraser of the silly OOOOOOOOOOO in place AA in all Tajiki speech. I really can't stand most Tajik male singers - in the same way I do not like the overly extenuated accents of Tehran. I get really annoyed when I see software and castes that purport to teach Persian - teaching Tehrani accent Persian.

If you think that by simply adopting the almost vowless Perso-Arabic will restore the OOOOOOOOOO into more realistic sounder AA - I will tell you it is not enough.

Perso-Latin - phonetically correct PARSI e DARI would restore the Russified accent in Tajikistan more effectively than by adopting Perso-Arabic script alone.

Perso-Latin has many advantages to it which Tajikistan has a practicable chance of attaining but to throw that away - it would be a big shame.

You have not made an effective argument for opposing outright Perso-Latin . Do you not think it has any advantages over Perso-Arabic?

Regarding literacy and type of script - I said a script that makes it easier to master the language is more effective in increasing literacy - there is no denying that. Citing Japan as an example is a non stater since Japan has the resources to teach the most archaic scripts to its children - but when one looks at Japan deeper - one can see that even they have realized the benefits of a phonetic latin script - they teach it at school as a compulsory subject. Infact they have 4 different scripts.

Using Geogia's success of keeping 100% literacy with their peculiar script as opposed to Tajikistan's drop from 100% literacy to 95% with its Cyrillic - as justification for officially reverting to PERSO-ARABIC in Tajikistan is quite ambitious to say the least. There are countless other factors for the 100% of one and the 95% of the other.

What I advocate is simple:

Perso-Arabic as an extra subject at school, enabling the students to read and write in it.

Perso-Latin - phonetically based upon classical Parsi, Parsi e Dari - as the official script of the nation. This would make the mastering of the mastering of the language so much easier. Reading poetry correctly with the right amount of emphasis on the vowels is very hard with Perso-Arabic - it literally takes 9+ years. But with a phonetically correct alphabet.

This combination will make Tajikistan truly a place where the people speak their own classical Persian - being able to read Perso-Arabic better than those in Iran and Afghanistan due to the additional knowledge of Perso-Latin script based phonetically upon classical Persian. It would pave the way for standardization of Persian between Afghanistan and Tajikistan.

What could be better than that?

Ahhangar[/QUOTE]

Kambiz

Posted 15 July 2008 - 12:28 AM

As you emphasised yourself, Parsiye Dari is the best Persian accent in your opinion. You might accept as well that other people have their own views on the matter. That is what I meant by 'mess' if Latin script will ever be adopted by all Persian-speaking people.

Persian script is not more difficult than Chinese, Japanese, Georgian, Armenian etc. Actually most of them have the same problem as in Persian - several letters for the same sound. And citing the difficulty to learn a script is not a strong argument to forsake the Persian script. We've been using it for a millenium and it is strange that out of a blue we found it difficult and not worthwhile to be saved as our official script.

[QUOTE=Ahhangar;11402]Indeed the issue of accents is important. I think that a phonetical Parsi e Dari would be the best option for all Parsi speakers. And we should catalog the regional accents phonetically aswell - but generally not use them in the standard script except in exceptional cases.

This issue will force us to have a standardized script - so that it is read the same everywhere - and in my opinion the only worthy accent is the Parsi e Dari - as it represents the very best of our language - Qand e Parsi as they say!

Perso - Arabic has too many shortcomings to be still acceptable as the sole way of writing script. It takes too long to master. Perso-Latin alongside it would greatly enhance things without loosing the sentimentality of Perso-Arabic based script.

I think there is a strong case for having a Perso-Latin alphabet that is phonetically Parsi e Dari - as the standardized Parsi for all Parsi speakers.

Ahhangar[/QUOTE]

Kambiz

Posted 15 July 2008 - 12:37 AM

I suggest to combine all sript-related topics in one thread to save our time jumping from one to another and leaving same comments everywhere. Very soon the entire forum could de dedicated to one topic it seems.

With all due respect to Ahhangar and Dushanbe I strongly disagree with their views as stated in other threads:

http://tajikam.com/f...p?t=3504&page=5

http://tajikam.com/f...p?t=3468&page=5

Ahhangar

Posted 15 July 2008 - 01:06 AM

[QUOTE=Darius;11487]As you emphasised yourself, Parsiye Dari is the best Persian accent in your opinion. You might accept as well that other people have their own views on the matter. That is what I meant by 'mess' if Latin script will ever be adopted by all Persian-speaking people.

Persian script is not more difficult than Chinese, Japanese, Georgian, Armenian etc. Actually most of them have the same problem as in Persian - several letters for the same sound. And citing the difficulty to learn a script is not a strong argument to forsake the Persian script. We've been using it for a millenium and it is strange that out of a blue we found it difficult and not worthwhile to be saved as our official script.[/QUOTE]

Dear Darius,

I have not said to fore sake Perso-Arabic script. My proposal is a combination of the Perso-Latin as the official and Perso-Arabic as an extra subject. What problems you have with this ?

Would you rather accept that Perso-Arabic were official and that Perso-Latin was an extra subject in school? Or would you do away with Perso-Latin altogether as you do not see any benefits in it? Tell us your reasons.

Why are you citing examples of the problems of Chinese and Georgian being a justification with putting up with the shortcomings of Perso-Arabic?

Perso-Arabic itself has been a factor in us continuing to have such a varied number of accents. There is a need to standardize it.

Parsi e Dari is classical Parsi - there is no doubt that is the best form of Parsi. It is the only acceptable pan Persian form of Parsi - that is how it was historically.

Ahhangar

Kambiz

Posted 15 July 2008 - 01:30 AM

Dear Ahhangar,

I don't see any reason why we should engage ourselves with Latin. When I bring up examples like Chinese, Georgian, Japanese etc. I want to draw parallels between difficulties we experience in all these languages, but none of those difficulties are eternal. How come Ferdowsi, Avicenna, Khayyam etc. did not face any problems in our script that you are talking about and yet succeeded to produce works much more valued than anything else in their times? Or do you have any problems with the Persian script yourself. To be honest, I don't.

I reiterate again that Latin or any vowel-based script like Cyrillic does not serve our language well. I don't see anything wrong in our numerous accents. Yet all can read Persian in their own accents. I feel a kind of antagonism in your attitude towards other accents. But how realistic it sounds to you that tens of millions of Persians would start speaking in the same accent as soon as we introduce the Latin script? And who says that everybody will endorse it? This is just your esteemed view about the best accent of Persian. But not everybody will share that view with you and not everyone wants to concerve a special accent as the official one. Even in languages with Latin script like English accents differ from town to town.

The only outcome of the Latin introduction is dividing us further. Therefore, I do not support it. I hope you won't make me repeat it again brother. And this reason is too strong for me to ignore it.

[QUOTE=Ahhangar;11492]Dear Darius,

I have not said to fore sake Perso-Arabic script. My proposal is a combination of the Perso-Latin as the official and Perso-Arabic as an extra subject. What problems you have with this ?

Would you rather accept that Perso-Arabic were official and that Perso-Latin was an extra subject in school? Or would you do away with Perso-Latin altogether as you do not see any benefits in it? Tell us your reasons.

Why are you citing examples of the problems of Chinese and Georgian being a justification with putting up with the shortcomings of Perso-Arabic?

Perso-Arabic itself has been a factor in us continuing to have such a varied number of accents. There is a need to standardize it.

Parsi e Dari is classical Parsi - there is no doubt that is the best form of Parsi. It is the only acceptable pan Persian form of Parsi - that is how it was historically.

Ahhangar[/QUOTE]

Ahhangar

Posted 15 July 2008 - 05:38 AM

[QUOTE=Darius;11486]Dear Ahhangar,

Quote

Your arguments for the sake of Latin alphabet do not sound convincing at all. As said before, Tajikistan has experienced it already and we didn't witness any success in reading and reciting Persian poems in a better way. Quite the contrary.


I'm happy that you've dropped your relative support for Cyrillic. It was obvious in your earlier messages. However, Latin has got exactly the same lapses for CA Persian as Cyrillic. For example, the word combination 'Soviet Tajikistan' was transliterated as 'Tojikistoni Soveti'. The word 'mother' as 'modar'. And if you cherish a dream to introduce 'aa' for 'alef-e mamdud' in Tajikistan, it is not going to happen after such a long existence of 'o' replacement. People will simply not fathom out what you mean.

In order to institutionalize Latin as our official script you have to define the official accent. In Soviet times it was Bukharan-Khojandi (or Northern) accent of Tajikistan with all its peculiarities. It will further distance our accent from the rest of the Persian-speakers as we've seen already. Persian is the only script that gives us the utmost unity in language. Anybody could pronounce words in her/his accent. If you mean conserving a certain accent as the official one, it is not going to happen either. Even in Tajikistan it did not. The result was an artificial literary language accepted as the standard Tajiki. That's why when you speak to someone from CA in Persian their accent sounds unreal and sometimes even weird.

The Persian language is rich in accents and I think it embelishes and beautifies our language rather than opposite. Our great poets and writers have written in Persian and none of our Persian-speaking brethren have accepted Latin as their official script. So, why do you want a further differentiation between us? We need a single script for learning our language in its original sript in a due way and for fomenting our unity. But your suggestion - besides sounding too unrealistic to me - could trigger a further separation between us. A different script is the main argument of supporters of the different name for our language (Tajiki). By changing it to Latin their argument will be strengthened and they will have an upper hand in keeping our language apart from the rest of its body.

Hope you got me this time.[/QUOTE]




Dear Darius,

I do not think you want to understand what I mean when I talk about Perso-Latin script. It is not the same as the Latin equivalent of the current Cyrillic in Tajikistan. Read carefully.


Lets clear a few things up first - make them clear before we continue with our mutual mis perception of each other.

---
Background

There are two categories of Parsi.


Parsi e Amyana
: Under Parsi e Amyana falls all the geographically specific dialects of Parsi; no matter where it is - in Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Afghanistan, Iran, etc. Each local dialect has its own peculiar words, phrases and accent.

I believe that all local dialects of Parsi should be recorded - so that they are not lost to us forever. I am not for the eradication of the local dialects.

Parsi e Dari : This is the classical Parsi in which all of our classical literature was written - all of the official orders (farmans) of the past rulers of our region. It was also called Parsi e Adabi and Parsi e Qalami. It is what united our peoples in reality and what brought honor and fame to the language. It forms the basis for the formal writing of Parsi in Afghanistan and Iran. It is the Parsi form of Parsi that symbolizes our unity.



-------

Defining the problem of Tajiki


In Tajikistan - through the influence of the Russians/Soviets - a local Parsi e Amyana - that is a local dialect of Parsi, that of Khujandi-Bukhari as you say, was chosen to be the basis of the official Parsi of the state.

Amongst the effects this had was that of the banishing the classical Parsi, Parsi e Dari - from the area - and serving as a useful tool to divide those lands from the Persian speaking lands to the south.

This local dialect was further augmented by grammatical changes - through applying foreign grammatical principles and vowels - to adjust the chosen local dialect even more. The result was a perverted (fake sounding) version of the dialect.

This new entity was enshrined phonetically within a Latin script initially and later a Cyrillic script. This perverted form of the Khujanidi-Bukhari dialect with its phonetically designed alphabet came to be known as the 'Tajiki' language.

Both of the scripts that have been used within Tajikistan were/are phonetically specific to the perverted (fake sounding) version of the Khujanidi-Bukhari dialect.

The problem of Tajikistan is that not only is the script something that we currently cannot read in Iran and Afghanistan - but that the officially created language is not ideal for communicating with the rest of the Persian speaking world as it is not only a local dialect of Persian - but that is a perverted (fake sounding) version of a local dialect - that of Khujandi Bukhari.

So the problem must recognized as being two tiered - that of script and that of the adoption of a local dialect as the official language of the state and a perversion of it with grammatical adjustments. Both of these factors are problematic for ease of communication between us in Afghanistan - Iran and elsewhere and those within Tajikistan.

When the problem is recognized as two tiered - then one will realize that simply changing the script is not enough. We must tackle the issue of the actual language as well as the script.

The question now is whether the adoption of Perso-Arabic script - would it be enough to eliminate the fake sounding 'Tajiki' entity and restore the Khujandi Bukhari dialect to the status of a local dialect and give the people of Tajikistan the knowledge to understand fully and read properly the Parsi-e-Dari scripts from Iran and Afghanistan?


I think changing straight to the Perso-Arabic script will just mean that the people of Tajikistan will be attempting to write their grammatically augmented 'Khujandi-Bukhari in Perso-Arabic script - which will mean that the confusion created will be worse than it is currently.

I have read texts of Sadrudin Ayni which were in Perso-Arabic script - considered the father of 'Tajiki' literature - his memories in which he writes in a peculiar local dialect - sentence structures that are would not be considered as being 'Formal'. Basically he had written down the local colloquial language using Perso-Arabic. When reading I would read in my own accent - yes - but it was still not Parsi e Dari - classical formal written Parsi - as is in Afghanistan and Iran.

Besides - politically speaking - I have the impression that changing back to Perso-Arabic would be far too unlikely in Tajikistan - considering the 'Islamist' and 'theocratic' connotations it carries and of the miserable rule of the past emirs.

Perso-Arabic script is hard enough to master for us in Iran and Afghanistan to write properly - but at least our grammar is closer to the ideal and original Parsi e Dari - whereas the augmented structure of the language in Tajikistan would mean that it is even harder to master formal written Perso-Arabic based Persian as it is used in Afghanistan and Iran. It would be much harder to master than the current 'Tajiki'. This would create huge problems within Tajikistan and the rate of literacy would decline. Over a very long time - it may slowly change - but I believe there are more effective methods.

Also - the problems related to the 'fake sounding' ness of Tajiki and the inability of the O in Cyrillic show the difference between long and short version of the sound 'o' - can be changed and corrected much more effective and easily with adjusting the Tajiki-Cyrillic script slightly - there is no need to go for Perso-Arabic to solve that.

Infact it is entirely possible to develop a Cyrillic script that is phonetically based upon the best reading of Parsi e Dari. But that would not solve the issue of giving access to those from Iran and Afghanistan.

----


Solution

When I say that in Tajikistan I want the Tajiki-Cyrillic script to be changed to Perso-Latin - I do not mean to simply change the present Tajiki-Cyrillic to its equivalent Tajiki-Latin script - as it was at one time in Tajikistan - there is no point to that.

What I meant with my proposal was a Perso-Latin alphabet that was specifically designed for is phonetically based upon classical Parsi - Parsi e Dari.

This would not only change the official script of Tajikistan into a script which us Parsi speakers of Afghanistan and Iran could read - but it would change the official language of Tajikistan from the perverted (fake sounding) version of the Khujandi-Bukhari dialect to Parsi e DARI. The Russian/Soviet guided and created entity known as 'Tajiki' would cease.

The phonetically correct Perso-Latin script would be very easy to master - it would open up the Persian language to the world - it will serve as a tool for effectively recording the different dialects of Parsi - it will allow a much greater percentage of our populations to access the and digest fully the great pieces of literature in our heritage - something that has been limited only to the academic elite. It will certainly increase the access much more than the current teaching via only Perso-Arabic script.

In addition to the the Perso-Latin script - I propose the teaching of the Perso-Arabic as an extra language at school - so then all the peoples of Tajikistan would be able to rad the texts coming from Iran and Afghanistan.

With the knowledge from the phonetically Parsi e Dari - Perso-Latin script they would be able to read and use the Perso-Arabic script so much better and quicker.

I hope understand now that I aim to not loose the advantages of having a phonetic script for a form of the language that is accepted as being the best form of our language - in Tajikistan - especially when it has more of a chance of being adopted than Perso-Arabic.

Ahhangar

Ahhangar

Posted 15 July 2008 - 06:24 AM

[QUOTE=Darius;11493]Dear Ahhangar,

I don't see any reason why we should engage ourselves with Latin. When I bring up examples like Chinese, Georgian, Japanese etc. I want to draw parallels between difficulties we experience in all these languages, but none of those difficulties are eternal. How come Ferdowsi, Avicenna, Khayyam etc. did not face any problems in our script that you are talking about and yet succeeded to produce works much more valued than anything else in their times? Or do you have any problems with the Persian script yourself. To be honest, I don't.

I reiterate again that Latin or any vowel-based script like Cyrillic does not serve our language well. I don't see anything wrong in our numerous accents. Yet all can read Persian in their own accents. I feel a kind of antagonism in your attitude towards other accents. But how realistic it sounds to you that tens of millions of Persians would start speaking in the same accent as soon as we introduce the Latin script? And who says that everybody will endorse it? This is just your esteemed view about the best accent of Persian. But not everybody will share that view with you and not everyone wants to concerve a special accent as the official one. Even in languages with Latin script like English accents differ from town to town.

The only outcome of the Latin introduction is dividing us further. Therefore, I do not support it. I hope you won't make me repeat it again brother. And this reason is too strong for me to ignore it.[/QUOTE]

My normal non formal dialect is called Parsi e Kabuli - it is not Parsi e Dari.

Do you not believe that Parsi e Dari is the true Pan Persian form of the language we call all communicate with - - despite our local colloquialisms and accents?

Is that not how has been historically with the past courts, from Bengal to Istanbul?

Why would you find it acceptable for a local dialect to be adopted as the official language at state level? In Afghanistan we have countless local dialects - but we all of Persian speakers write we write in Parsi e Dari and we all read it out the same. Our local accents are not used in formal speech.


How realistic is the idea of jumping straight from the PHONETIC CYRILLIC to a non-PHONETIC Perso-Arabic in Tajikistan?

Exactly how will LATIN in Tajikistan divide us FURTHER ? How can we get more divided than we are currently? With LATIN at least the students of Iran and Afghanistan can read texts in Tajikistan - but with Cyrillic they cannot. Is that not a division that will be narrowed with the adoption of Latin?

The present alphabet of Tajikistan IS PHONETIC - and yet you oppose a PHONETIC ALPHABET THAT IS MUCH CLOSER TO CLASSICAL PERSIAN with the excuse that it will FURTHER divide us? :confused:

The most realistic first step is to improve the existing PHONETIC CYRILLIC script - calling for reform - to make it less fake sounding.

The following step would be to change the better PHONETIC CYRILLIC to an even better PHONETIC LATIN. This would make it accessible to the others in the Persian speaking world.

The following step would be to add the non Phonetic Perso-Arabic script as an extra subject at school in Tajikistan.

But if you feel that Perso-Arabic script is so easy to implement in Tajikistan - then whom am I to argue? If that happens then all the better.

You cite the talents of Firdawsi Avicenna Khayyam as examples of those whom did not have difficulties in using Perso-Arabic script - yes - they were the very best and devoted their lives to such pursuits. I am talking of making their works accessible to the masses much easier than through the archaic Perso-Arabic - without banishing the Perso-Arabic.

Ahhangar

Kambiz

Posted 15 July 2008 - 12:31 PM

Dear Ahhangar,

You didn't have to write such a lengthy piece in order to clarify your position. It was clear enough to me. What amazes me is your inability to understand me. Perhaps I have not been eloquent enough to make it understood.

Let me bring an example from your own transliteration: Parsi e Amyana. I think it is wrong. The word 'amiyana' derives from the adjective 'aami', therefore it should be spelled as 'aamiyaana'. And the word combination must look like 'paarisye aamiyaana'.

It was just an example to show you how many questions this issue might raise and there will be no end to establish a proper 'Parsiye Dari'. It's simply impossible, because the Latin script is not compatible with the Persian language and its nuances. Your suggestion, apart from being infeasable, will deepen the differences between the Persians of the world. That's why I consider it impossible, illogical and negative.

We have a sole Persian alphabet that has been used for a millenium and still serving our nation in both Iran and Afghanistan. The same script should be brought back to Tajikistan and other Persian-speaking parts of CA. It's easier and logical. Believe me, the difficulty of learning Persian is not as serious as propagated by some. I found it very easy in comparison with even French, let alone Chinese or Japanese. It just depends on the methodology of teaching it.

The Persian script will unite us. The Latin script will separate us.

That's my opinion.

[QUOTE=Ahhangar;11495]Dear Darius,

I do not think you want to understand what I mean when I talk about Perso-Latin script. It is not the same as the Latin equivalent of the current Cyrillic in Tajikistan. Read carefully.


Lets clear a few things up first - make them clear before we continue with our mutual mis perception of each other.

---
Background

There are two categories of Parsi.


Parsi e Amyana
: Under Parsi e Amyana falls all the geographically specific dialects of Parsi; no matter where it is - in Uzbekistan, Tajikistan, Afghanistan, Iran, etc. Each local dialect has its own peculiar words, phrases and accent.

I believe that all local dialects of Parsi should be recorded - so that they are not lost to us forever. I am not for the eradication of the local dialects.

Parsi e Dari : This is the classical Parsi in which all of our classical literature was written - all of the official orders (farmans) of the past rulers of our region. It was also called Parsi e Adabi and Parsi e Qalami. It is what united our peoples in reality and what brought honor and fame to the language. It forms the basis for the formal writing of Parsi in Afghanistan and Iran. It is the Parsi form of Parsi that symbolizes our unity.



-------

Defining the problem of Tajiki


In Tajikistan - through the influence of the Russians/Soviets - a local Parsi e Amyana - that is a local dialect of Parsi, that of Khujandi-Bukhari as you say, was chosen to be the basis of the official Parsi of the state.

Amongst the effects this had was that of the banishing the classical Parsi, Parsi e Dari - from the area - and serving as a useful tool to divide those lands from the Persian speaking lands to the south.

This local dialect was further augmented by grammatical changes - through applying foreign grammatical principles and vowels - to adjust the chosen local dialect even more. The result was a perverted (fake sounding) version of the dialect.

This new entity was enshrined phonetically within a Latin script initially and later a Cyrillic script. This perverted form of the Khujanidi-Bukhari dialect with its phonetically designed alphabet came to be known as the 'Tajiki' language.

Both of the scripts that have been used within Tajikistan were/are phonetically specific to the perverted (fake sounding) version of the Khujanidi-Bukhari dialect.

The problem of Tajikistan is that not only is the script something that we currently cannot read in Iran and Afghanistan - but that the officially created language is not ideal for communicating with the rest of the Persian speaking world as it is not only a local dialect of Persian - but that is a perverted (fake sounding) version of a local dialect - that of Khujandi Bukhari.

So the problem must recognized as being two tiered - that of script and that of the adoption of a local dialect as the official language of the state and a perversion of it with grammatical adjustments. Both of these factors are problematic for ease of communication between us in Afghanistan - Iran and elsewhere and those within Tajikistan.

When the problem is recognized as two tiered - then one will realize that simply changing the script is not enough. We must tackle the issue of the actual language as well as the script.

The question now is whether the adoption of Perso-Arabic script - would it be enough to eliminate the fake sounding 'Tajiki' entity and restore the Khujandi Bukhari dialect to the status of a local dialect and give the people of Tajikistan the knowledge to understand fully and read properly the Parsi-e-Dari scripts from Iran and Afghanistan?


I think changing straight to the Perso-Arabic script will just mean that the people of Tajikistan will be attempting to write their grammatically augmented 'Khujandi-Bukhari in Perso-Arabic script - which will mean that the confusion created will be worse than it is currently.

I have read texts of Sadrudin Ayni which were in Perso-Arabic script - considered the father of 'Tajiki' literature - his memories in which he writes in a peculiar local dialect - sentence structures that are would not be considered as being 'Formal'. Basically he had written down the local colloquial language using Perso-Arabic. When reading I would read in my own accent - yes - but it was still not Parsi e Dari - classical formal written Parsi - as is in Afghanistan and Iran.

Besides - politically speaking - I have the impression that changing back to Perso-Arabic would be far too unlikely in Tajikistan - considering the 'Islamist' and 'theocratic' connotations it carries and of the miserable rule of the past emirs.

Perso-Arabic script is hard enough to master for us in Iran and Afghanistan to write properly - but at least our grammar is closer to the ideal and original Parsi e Dari - whereas the augmented structure of the language in Tajikistan would mean that it is even harder to master formal written Perso-Arabic based Persian as it is used in Afghanistan and Iran. It would be much harder to master than the current 'Tajiki'. This would create huge problems within Tajikistan and the rate of literacy would decline. Over a very long time - it may slowly change - but I believe there are more effective methods.

Also - the problems related to the 'fake sounding' ness of Tajiki and the inability of the O in Cyrillic show the difference between long and short version of the sound 'o' - can be changed and corrected much more effective and easily with adjusting the Tajiki-Cyrillic script slightly - there is no need to go for Perso-Arabic to solve that.

Infact it is entirely possible to develop a Cyrillic script that is phonetically based upon the best reading of Parsi e Dari. But that would not solve the issue of giving access to those from Iran and Afghanistan.

----


Solution

When I say that in Tajikistan I want the Tajiki-Cyrillic script to be changed to Perso-Latin - I do not mean to simply change the present Tajiki-Cyrillic to its equivalent Tajiki-Latin script - as it was at one time in Tajikistan - there is no point to that.

What I meant with my proposal was a Perso-Latin alphabet that was specifically designed for is phonetically based upon classical Parsi - Parsi e Dari.

This would not only change the official script of Tajikistan into a script which us Parsi speakers of Afghanistan and Iran could read - but it would change the official language of Tajikistan from the perverted (fake sounding) version of the Khujandi-Bukhari dialect to Parsi e DARI. The Russian/Soviet guided and created entity known as 'Tajiki' would cease.

The phonetically correct Perso-Latin script would be very easy to master - it would open up the Persian language to the world - it will serve as a tool for effectively recording the different dialects of Parsi - it will allow a much greater percentage of our populations to access the and digest fully the great pieces of literature in our heritage - something that has been limited only to the academic elite. It will certainly increase the access much more than the current teaching via only Perso-Arabic script.

In addition to the the Perso-Latin script - I propose the teaching of the Perso-Arabic as an extra language at school - so then all the peoples of Tajikistan would be able to rad the texts coming from Iran and Afghanistan.

With the knowledge from the phonetically Parsi e Dari - Perso-Latin script they would be able to read and use the Perso-Arabic script so much better and quicker.

I hope understand now that I aim to not loose the advantages of having a phonetic script for a form of the language that is accepted as being the best form of our language - in Tajikistan - especially when it has more of a chance of being adopted than Perso-Arabic.

Ahhangar[/QUOTE]

Kambiz

Posted 15 July 2008 - 12:39 PM

You can find my answer here:

http://tajikam.com/f...p?t=3468&page=5

Apart from that, I have to add that I am not defending Cyrillic at all. lol. I reckon I am the most fierce foe of the Cyrillic script in Tajikistan. You know why? Because it is PHONETIC. I like Persian because it is NOT phonetic. It does not differentiate our accents. Latin that you suggest is not desired just because of that.

Now 2 countries write in Persian. Tajikistan is in total minority. It will have to join the majority of its siblings, not vice versa.

[QUOTE=Ahhangar;11499]My normal non formal dialect is called Parsi e Kabuli - it is not Parsi e Dari.

Do you not believe that Parsi e Dari is the true Pan Persian form of the language we call all communicate with - - despite our local colloquialisms and accents?

Is that not how has been historically with the past courts, from Bengal to Istanbul?

Why would you find it acceptable for a local dialect to be adopted as the official language at state level? In Afghanistan we have countless local dialects - but we all of Persian speakers write we write in Parsi e Dari and we all read it out the same. Our local accents are not used in formal speech.


How realistic is the idea of jumping straight from the PHONETIC CYRILLIC to a non-PHONETIC Perso-Arabic in Tajikistan?

Exactly how will LATIN in Tajikistan divide us FURTHER ? How can we get more divided than we are currently? With LATIN at least the students of Iran and Afghanistan can read texts in Tajikistan - but with Cyrillic they cannot. Is that not a division that will be narrowed with the adoption of Latin?

The present alphabet of Tajikistan IS PHONETIC - and yet you oppose a PHONETIC ALPHABET THAT IS MUCH CLOSER TO CLASSICAL PERSIAN with the excuse that it will FURTHER divide us? :confused:

The most realistic first step is to improve the existing PHONETIC CYRILLIC script - calling for reform - to make it less fake sounding.

The following step would be to change the better PHONETIC CYRILLIC to an even better PHONETIC LATIN. This would make it accessible to the others in the Persian speaking world.

The following step would be to add the non Phonetic Perso-Arabic script as an extra subject at school in Tajikistan.

But if you feel that Perso-Arabic script is so easy to implement in Tajikistan - then whom am I to argue? If that happens then all the better.

You cite the talents of Firdawsi Avicenna Khayyam as examples of those whom did not have difficulties in using Perso-Arabic script - yes - they were the very best and devoted their lives to such pursuits. I am talking of making their works accessible to the masses much easier than through the archaic Perso-Arabic - without banishing the Perso-Arabic.

Ahhangar[/QUOTE]

Afrasiab

Posted 15 July 2008 - 02:28 PM

To change the alphabet in one country is not easily financialy and economically. Tajikistan does not need to spend greater money for changing Cyrillics to Latin. If to change, it is necessary to change only to Persian, because with it will open to us door to the Iranian world where it is possible to find and read everithing on this alphabet.

Many supporters of the Persian alphabet in Tajikistan support this idea pragmatically. (I am one of them). I.e. the Persian alphabet will enable us to study all modern sciences on the native language (by Iranian books and other sources).

Today all education system in Iran is based on the Persian language and we with the Persian alphabet can accept this system and develop our education on the native language. The Persian alphabet is attractive to us not because of historical books on this alphabet. Many books of our historical poets and saentists are translated on cyrillics (as the Tajik professor said).

The basic advantage of the Persian alphabet for Tajikistan is not access to originals of historical books, but its access to the modern information in the Persian language. And on the latin alphabet we have nothing and we do not wish to accept this alphabet and to begin all from zero.

Ahhangar

Posted 16 July 2008 - 02:25 AM

[QUOTE=Darius;11504]Dear Ahhangar,

You didn't have to write such a lengthy piece in order to clarify your position. It was clear enough to me. What amazes me is your inability to understand me. Perhaps I have not been eloquent enough to make it understood.

Let me bring an example from your own transliteration: Parsi e Amyana. I think it is wrong. The word 'amiyana' derives from the adjective 'aami', therefore it should be spelled as 'aamiyaana'. And the word combination must look like 'paarisye aamiyaana'.

It was just an example to show you how many questions this issue might raise and there will be no end to establish a proper 'Parsiye Dari'. It's simply impossible, because the Latin script is not compatible with the Persian language and its nuances. Your suggestion, apart from being infeasable, will deepen the differences between the Persians of the world. That's why I consider it impossible, illogical and negative.

We have a sole Persian alphabet that has been used for a millenium and still serving our nation in both Iran and Afghanistan. The same script should be brought back to Tajikistan and other Persian-speaking parts of CA. It's easier and logical. Believe me, the difficulty of learning Persian is not as serious as propagated by some. I found it very easy in comparison with even French, let alone Chinese or Japanese. It just depends on the methodology of teaching it.

The Persian script will unite us. The Latin script will separate us.

That's my opinion.[/QUOTE]

Dear Darius,

My English alphabet transliteration is not phonetic Latin. Phonetic Latin is very broad based and can tailored (using diacritics) to convey any sound - and certainly it can be tailored to any form/accent/dialect of Persian - and thus entirely feasible. I would point out that the only way to make a record of the local accents - dialects of Persian would be through a phonetic alphabet - the Perso-Arabic is clearly not able to that.

You consistently fail to understand this important point of the need to teach the people of Tajikistan the proper written form of the Persian language - as it is used in Afghanistan-Iran currently and our classic literature of the past, and to not just settle for a Perso-Arabic script version of the Russified Khujjandi-Bukhari dialect.

Let me re-iterate; with Tajikistan the problem is not just script - it is the 'Tajiki' language itself. It is a local dialect (not just a local accent - but a local dialect) - perverted with non-Persian grammar, that has been given official status. Only settling for a change of the script to Perso-Arabic will mean that in Tajikistan a perverted local dialect will still have the status of the official language, except that is written in Perso-Arabic. It will not be the same written language as the written language of Afghanistan-Iran. It is that perverted format of the language for which the present phonetic script has been made up - and to think that by getting rid of the current phonetics alone it would satisfactory for repairing the divisive damage of foreign rule, is flawed.

I have read 'Tajiki' literature written in the Perso-Arabic script ('Persian script' as you say it), and it is certainly not the same as the written form of the Persian language used in Afghanistan-Iran, because it is the written form of a LOCAL DIALECT. Even though I read it in my own accent - the text did not follow the conventions and rules that are used in the written form of the language in Afghanistan-Iran. LOGIC would dictate that unity comes from all Persian peoples having the same official written form of the language - and not one part of it using their own local dialect for their written form and the rest of the Persian speaking world using the correct NON-LOCAL classical written form of the language. So I oppose your stance of changing simply to Perso-Arabic script on this basis alone (never mind that is politically unlikely) - as it is not enough to teach the people of Tajikistan the proper written form of the Persian language, clearly demonstrated by Sadruddin Ayni's Perso-Arabic script, local dialect memoirs.

So provision has to be made to teach the proper classical form of the Persian language. To do this effectively and to relegate 'Tajiki' for official status to that of local dialect - we need to put to use the advantages of having a Perso-Latin scipt that is phonetically based upon the very best Parsi - Parsi e Dari. The fake phonetics of the current 'Tajiki' cyrillic can only be gotton ridd off by using the countering effect of more desirable phonetics. This would not mean that the local accent/dialects of the people would be lost - it would just mean that people would differentiate between the formal language they use and write and the non-formal language they use - i.e. their local dialects. In addition to this - the teaching of the Perso-Arabic script would be taught as an extra subject at school - meaning that students of Tajikistan would be able to write in it and gain access to the texts written in Iran and Afghanistan. The result will be the effects of the false phonetics of 'Tajiki' will be removed - the people will have ability to speak formally in the very best form of Persian - and be able to read the write in the Perso-Arabic script of Iran and Afghanistan. Not only will the script issue be erased - but also the foreign grammatical influences as well.

Lets not forget that the the jump from Tajiki-Cyrillic to Tajiki-Arabic script is not that likely in Tajikistan - politically - and hence the need for a long winded approach - which if carried out using the advantageous of a phonetic Latin script - would have great results, and be an inspiration for the rest of the Persian speaking world.

Also - lets not forget that it was the Perso-Arabic script that played a role in us having so many varied accents - that have made it easier for people to divide us - and the archaic nature of its witting rules have meant that so many of our pieces of great literature have been fully appreciable only to a small elite. Using the example of Chinese Japanese and other scripts will not do. They all have Latin versions of their language - and use it as a tool for teaching. In Japan they teach 4 scripts ! We have to be open minded about scripts - and not solely base our opinions on a sentimentality for the script used for a millennium. Our situation in this millennium has not been that ideal - and we need to do lot of things differently for a better future.


Ahhangar

Ahhangar

Posted 16 July 2008 - 02:37 AM

[QUOTE=Darius;11505]You can find my answer here:

http://tajikam.com/f...p?t=3468&page=5

Apart from that, I have to add that I am not defending Cyrillic at all. lol. I reckon I am the most fierce foe of the Cyrillic script in Tajikistan. You know why? Because it is PHONETIC. I like Persian because it is NOT phonetic. It does not differentiate our accents. Latin that you suggest is not desired just because of that.

Now 2 countries write in Persian. Tajikistan is in total minority. It will have to join the majority of its siblings, not vice versa.[/QUOTE]

Darius,

The problem with 'Tajiki' is not just it's incorrect phonetic alphabet - it is the fact that the whole language is Frankenstein creation - consisting of foreign influenced grammar upon a geographically limited local dialect. The phonetic script is designed for the language - so when you admit you hate the 'fake-ness' of Tajiki - you need to realize that changing the script to Perso-Arabic is not enough to remedy the 'fake-ness' - and besides, it is change that is extremely unlikely politically in Tajikistan. So wake up and properly recognize the nature of the problem in Tajikistan and be more realistic in your solution.



Ahhangar

Kambiz

Posted 16 July 2008 - 03:28 AM

Ahhangar,

Do you have a good command of Cyrillic yourself? Where did you get your idea about problems of the Cyrillic script from?

And listen brother. There is no need for setting an alarm clock for me. You are talking about a topic that has been my matter of concern for a decade. Maybe it's time for you to wake up and realize that only by getting back to the Persian script all the lapses will be rectified. Because it is not a dead or non-existent script. Our Persians still write and read in the Persian script. Only the Persian script is able to wash away the linguistic blunders of the past. Whereas your Latin is a vague script based on a utopic idea. And even if your dream comes true, it will only harm our nation.

I think the question has been thoroughly discussed and you are repeating yourself. Get back if you got something new to say.

Cheers

[QUOTE=Ahhangar;11529]Darius,

The problem with 'Tajiki' is not just it's incorrect phonetic alphabet - it is the fact that the whole language is Frankenstein creation - consisting of foreign influenced grammar upon a geographically limited local dialect. The phonetic script is designed for the language - so when you admit you hate the 'fake-ness' of Tajiki - you need to realize that changing the script to Perso-Arabic is not enough to remedy the 'fake-ness' - and besides, it is change that is extremely unlikely politically in Tajikistan. So wake up and properly recognize the nature of the problem in Tajikistan and be more realistic in your solution.



Ahhangar[/QUOTE]

Kambiz

Posted 16 July 2008 - 03:42 AM

??? ?? ??? ??

??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ? * ??? ?? ???

??? ? ?? ?? ??? ?? ?? ?? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??? ??? ? ? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? . ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ?? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ?? ??? ??. ?? ??? ! ?? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?. ??? ?? ?? ?? ?? ??? ? ?? ??? ? ?? ?? ?* ??? ??? ?? ??? ? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ?* ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ?? ??? ? ?? ??? ??? ?? ?? ?? ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ?? ? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ?? ? ?? ? ? (?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ? ??? ?? ??? ??? ). ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ?? ? ?? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ??? ?? ??? ?. ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ?* ??? ??? ?? ? ??? ? ?? ?? ?? ??? ?

??? ??? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ?? ??? ??? ??? ? ?? ??. ??? ? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??? ? ? ??? ? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? . ??? ?? ?? ?? ??? ? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ??? ? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ?* ??? ?? ??? ? ? ??? ? * ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ?? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ?. ??? ??? ?? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ??? ? ?? ?? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??? ? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? . ??? ? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ?? ??? .

??? ? ??? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ??
??? ???


[quote=ahhangar;11528]dear darius,

my english alphabet transliteration is not phonetic latin. Phonetic latin is very broad based and can tailored (using diacritics) to convey any sound - and certainly it can be tailored to any form/accent/dialect of persian - and thus entirely feasible. I would point out that the only way to make a record of the local accents - dialects of persian would be through a phonetic alphabet - the perso-arabic is clearly not able to that.

You consistently fail to understand this important point of the need to teach the people of tajikistan the proper written form of the persian language - as it is used in afghanistan-iran currently and our classic literature of the past, and to not just settle for a perso-arabic script version of the russified khujjandi-bukhari dialect.

Let me re-iterate; with tajikistan the problem is not just script - it is the 'tajiki' language itself. It is a local dialect (not just a local accent - but a local dialect) - perverted with non-persian grammar, that has been given official status. Only settling for a change of the script to perso-arabic will mean that in tajikistan a perverted local dialect will still have the status of the official language, except that is written in perso-arabic. It will not be the same written language as the written language of afghanistan-iran. It is that perverted format of the language for which the present phonetic script has been made up - and to think that by getting rid of the current phonetics alone it would satisfactory for repairing the divisive damage of foreign rule, is flawed.

I have read 'tajiki' literature written in the perso-arabic script ('persian script' as you say it), and it is certainly not the same as the written form of the persian language used in afghanistan-iran, because it is the written form of a local dialect. Even though i read it in my own accent - the text did not follow the conventions and rules that are used in the written form of the language in afghanistan-iran. Logic would dictate that unity comes from all persian peoples having the same official written form of the language - and not one part of it using their own local dialect for their written form and the rest of the persian speaking world using the correct non-local classical written form of the language. So i oppose your stance of changing simply to perso-arabic script on this basis alone (never mind that is politically unlikely) - as it is not enough to teach the people of tajikistan the proper written form of the persian language, clearly demonstrated by sadruddin ayni's perso-arabic script, local dialect memoirs.

So provision has to be made to teach the proper classical form of the persian language. To do this effectively and to relegate 'tajiki' for official status to that of local dialect - we need to put to use the advantages of having a perso-latin scipt that is phonetically based upon the very best parsi - parsi e dari. The fake phonetics of the current 'tajiki' cyrillic can only be gotton ridd off by using the countering effect of more desirable phonetics. This would not mean that the local accent/dialects of the people would be lost - it would just mean that people would differentiate between the formal language they use and write and the non-formal language they use - i.e. Their local dialects. In addition to this - the teaching of the perso-arabic script would be taught as an extra subject at school - meaning that students of tajikistan would be able to write in it and gain access to the texts written in iran and afghanistan. The result will be the effects of the false phonetics of 'tajiki' will be removed - the people will have ability to speak formally in the very best form of persian - and be able to read the write in the perso-arabic script of iran and afghanistan. Not only will the script issue be erased - but also the foreign grammatical influences as well.

Lets not forget that the the jump from tajiki-cyrillic to tajiki-arabic script is not that likely in tajikistan - politically - and hence the need for a long winded approach - which if carried out using the advantageous of a phonetic latin script - would have great results, and be an inspiration for the rest of the persian speaking world.

Also - lets not forget that it was the perso-arabic script that played a role in us having so many varied accents - that have made it easier for people to divide us - and the archaic nature of its witting rules have meant that so many of our pieces of great literature have been fully appreciable only to a small elite. Using the example of chinese japanese and other scripts will not do. They all have latin versions of their language - and use it as a tool for teaching. In japan they teach 4 scripts ! We have to be open minded about scripts - and not solely base our opinions on a sentimentality for the script used for a millennium. Our situation in this millennium has not been that ideal - and we need to do lot of things differently for a better future.


Ahhangar[/quote]

Sohrab

Posted 16 July 2008 - 06:53 AM

[QUOTE=Darius;11536]
??? ?? ??? ??

??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ? * ??? ?? ???

??? ? ?? ?? ??? ?? ?? ? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??? ??? ? ? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? . ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ?? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ?? ??? ??. ?? ??? ! ?? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?. ??? ?? ?? ?? ?? ??? ? ?? ??? ? ?? ?? ?* ??? ??? ?? ??? ? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ?* ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ?? ??? ? ?? ??? ??? ?? ?? ?? ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ?? ? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ?? ? ?? ? ? (?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ? ??? ?? ??? ??? ). ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ?? ? ?? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ??? ?? ??? ?. ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ?* ??? ??? ?? ? ??? ? ?? ?? ?? ??? ?

??? ??? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ?? ??? ??? ??? ? ?? ??. ??? ? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??? ? ? ??? ? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? . ??? ?? ?? ?? ??? ? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ??? ? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ?* ??? ?? ??? ? ? ??? ? * ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ?? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ?. ??? ??? ?? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ??? ? ?? ?? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??? ? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? . ??? ? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ?? ??? .

??? ? ??? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ??
??? ???
[/QUOTE]

Dear Darius jan,

I like it when i see someone from Tajikistan writes in Farsi, it looks beautiful.


I believe non of us want to prefer Latin over Persian, but there are alot of people in Tajikisan who resist the idea of Farsi and just love cyrillic. To get rid of this, I think presenting Latin to Tajikistan is one of the ways to establish a line of communication between us. With cyrillic outthere, we'll be worse off.

Kambiz

Posted 16 July 2008 - 03:25 PM

[QUOTE=Rika Khana;11541]Dear Darius jan,

I like it when i see someone from Tajikistan writes in Farsi, it looks beautiful.


I believe non of us want to prefer Latin over Persian, but there are alot of people in Tajikisan who resist the idea of Farsi and just love cyrillic. To get rid of this, I think presenting Latin to Tajikistan is one of the ways to establish a line of communication between us. With cyrillic outthere, we'll be worse off.[/QUOTE]

Dear Rika Khana jan,

I don't know where you guys have taken this idea from that people in Tajikistan might choose to get back to Latin rather than Persian. At least people are exchanging their views about returning to the Persian script and it will happen after a while. But Latin is not even on the table. Don't you think it would be better to read us in Persian rather than incompatible Latin?

And don't you think that people in Tajikistan want to read you too?

I think the re-connection must be mutual, not one way.

Cheers

Sohrab

Posted 16 July 2008 - 05:39 PM

[QUOTE=Darius;11547]Dear Rika Khana jan,

I don't know where you guys have taken this idea from that people in Tajikistan might choose to get back to Latin rather than Persian. At least people are exchanging their views about returning to the Persian script and it will happen after a while. But Latin is not even on the table. Don't you think it would be better to read us in Persian rather than incompatible Latin?

And don't you think that people in Tajikistan want to read you too?

I think the re-connection must be mutual, not one way.

Cheers[/QUOTE]

Dariuse Gerami,

Yes, I and all of us want that Tajikisan goes back to persian and leave cyrillic for good. I personally want more than quiet alto, because i have never been able to see what you guys say and write over there. We have perhaps got this idea from the internet that people in tajikisan show negative reaction to coming back to persian alphabet, but also there are some people who want persian back. If the people of tajikistan want persian back, then basically thats what we want. I want to have more information from you regarding this issue, what is the situation over there? how people see persian alphabet and judge it? becasue we have also got some other friends that is not keen on persian, like Dushanbe.

Kambiz

Posted 17 July 2008 - 01:09 AM

[QUOTE=Rika Khana;11550]Dariuse Gerami,

Yes, I and all of us want that Tajikisan goes back to persian and leave cyrillic for good. I personally want more than quiet alto, because i have never been able to see what you guys say and write over there. We have perhaps got this idea from the internet that people in tajikisan show negative reaction to coming back to persian alphabet, but also there are some people who want persian back. If the people of tajikistan want persian back, then basically thats what we want. I want to have more information from you regarding this issue, what is the situation over there? how people see persian alphabet and judge it? becasue we have also got some other friends that is not keen on persian, like Dushanbe.[/QUOTE]


Dear Rika Khana,

Thanks for the message.

So far I've seen only one Tajikistani user in our forum who opposes the Persian script, and many more who support it. This is the reality of our situation back at home. People are divided between cons and pros. However, the main reason of our further bewilderment with the Cyrillic script is the government.

During the early 1990s all streets in Tajikistan's major cities were adorned with Persian writings. The names of streets, shops and agencies were written in both scripts. Because according to the Language Law, we were supposed to return to the Persian script by 1995. People were learning the script enthusiastically and almost all newspapers took part in spreading the knowledge of the Persian script by publishing paper lessons. But after the shift of the power Rahman's government abolished that decision in 1993 and all Persian writings were wiped off the streets and buildings.

That's why it all depends on the government. They will come to this very logical conclusion that with all their CA neighbours going back to the Latin script Tajikistan will become an island of Cyrillic in the region. We have our own brethren beyond the borders who write and speak in Persian. To join them will be the only option for our country. It will take time, but ought to happen.

Even now debates are going on about the scripts as you can see in F. Khalbek's article published in the forum. And serious consideration is being paid to the Persian script only.

Cheers

PORS

Posted 18 July 2008 - 05:37 AM

Dorud bar hama,

Darius-jan unfortunately you are right. Many people back in TJ are leaned to cyrllic rather than Persian because government is afraid of bringing Persian back as it might have elements of islamic stance in TJ which might further develop and become a serious problem. I don't think it should be the case for an excuse. The time has come and government should step in and do something, but we as a part of our country should help in this process by using all means, like internet and technology in general.

As for Latin, there is no need to consider it. I wish people could spend all their time spent for making Latin the case, spend it for promoting Parsi. Hearing all sides are always good, but we have done too much. I look forward that people will start writing long posts regarding how to promote it, rather than latin or cyrillic. Although, it is mostly responsibility of those members from TJ, but our brothers from Afghanistan and Iran can also share their views on how we can accomplish it.

Afrasiab, Dushanbe, Tojik-jon, Arya-zadeh please share your perspectives on that. I know that you all made contribution earlier in this thread but sometimes it's good to come back after a while reading all posts and hearing all sides. Maybe any of you got splendid ideas?



Pors.

Sohrab

Posted 18 July 2008 - 06:57 AM

To friends from Tajikistan: what do you guys think about the future of persian language and the alphabet in Tajikistan?

Dushanbe

Posted 18 July 2008 - 07:42 AM

[QUOTE=Rika Khana;11574]To friends from Tajikistan: what do you guys think about the future of persian language and the alphabet in Tajikistan?[/QUOTE]

Oh! ..., I am completely surprised that you are still looking for an anwser to this question...

Let me refrain from answering to it... :cool:

Sohrab

Posted 18 July 2008 - 07:59 AM

[QUOTE=Dushanbe;11576]Oh! ..., I am completely surprised that you are still looking for an anwser to this question...

Let me refrain from answering to it... :cool: [/QUOTE]

Dear Dushanbe,

So far I have been hearing you guys' points of views. But what is the actual situation in Tajikistan? what do the masses think? You guys talked about the technical side of the issue, but what is the general mode among the public?

Dushanbe

Posted 18 July 2008 - 08:13 AM

[QUOTE=Rika Khana;11577]Dear Dushanbe,

So far I have hearing you guys' points of views. But what is the actual situation in Tajikistan? what do the masses think?[/QUOTE]

Well, it is a pity that you cannot read Cyrillic. Yesterday I read one article in my favorite newspaper "millat" an article against Tajik professor Ibrohim Usmonov's views on this issue. http://www.millat.tj.../zabon/page/78/

I have a strong feeling that it was written by one (or two) of the members of this forum.

22nd of July is the day of Tajik language in Tajikistan, for this reason it is being widely discussed among writers.

Iosif Stalin has a lot of sayings, and one of them is: "The writers are the engineers of human minds"

Sohrab

Posted 18 July 2008 - 08:22 AM

is it the same professor you posted his article a few days ago?

Dushanbe

Posted 18 July 2008 - 08:32 AM

[QUOTE=Rika Khana;11580]is it the same professor you posted his article a few days ago?[/QUOTE]

Yes

Sohrab

Posted 18 July 2008 - 08:32 AM

[QUOTE=Dushanbe;11579]Well, it is a pity that you cannot read Cyrillic. [/QUOTE]

Dear Dushanbe,

This is the main reason people want to get rid of cyrillic. You can not read persian and i cannot cyrillic, what do you think what will be our way of communication as persian speakers?

Dushanbe

Posted 18 July 2008 - 08:35 AM

[QUOTE=Rika Khana;11582]Dear Dushanbe,

This is the main reason people want to get rid of cyrillic. You can not read persian and i cannot cyrillic, what do you think what will be our way of communication as persian speakers?[/QUOTE]

I can read Persian (not as fast as I wish, but I understand the text)

Sohrab

Posted 18 July 2008 - 08:39 AM

[QUOTE=Dushanbe;11583]I can read Persian (not as fast as I wish, but I understand the text)[/QUOTE]

Good to hear that. But that is not the case with everyone back in Tajikistan.

Dushanbe

Posted 18 July 2008 - 08:44 AM

[QUOTE=Rika Khana;11584]Good to hear that. But that is not the case with everyone back in Tajikistan.[/QUOTE]

Actually, many young people somehow can read Persian - those of my age and bellow.

Sohrab

Posted 18 July 2008 - 08:47 AM

[QUOTE=Dushanbe;11585]Actually, many young people somehow can read Persian - those of my age and bellow.[/QUOTE]

That is very impressive. I can see a bright future for persian there then. I am glad to hear this good news!! I know you said SOMEHOW, but what is your guess what will be the reason behind this great achievement?

Dushanbe

Posted 18 July 2008 - 09:05 AM

[QUOTE=Rika Khana;11586]That is very impressive. I can see a bright future for persian there then. I am glad to hear this good news!! Any idea what is the reason behind this great achievement?[/QUOTE]

One of them is the increase of influence of mullahs and religion. More and more people send their children to those who can teach Qoidai Baghdodi, Chahorkitob, Quran, Hafiz.

The other is that they somehow started teaching it at schools.

And the other is a slow increase of self-awareness.

I generally somehow learned it from my father. I am from a very traditional family that teach their children reading in Arabic the above mentioned.

Anyways, the young generation, in particular those younger than me, are much better than their elder brothers. They are more progressive and many of them are willing to learn more languages. I am afraid I will always have to undate myself, otherwise I may become outdated

Afrasiab

Posted 18 July 2008 - 09:09 AM

For guys who can not read cyrillic alphabet. Article about Persian alphabets discussion in tajik newspaper Millat (Tajikistan)


TURKTOZIHO BA KHAT VA ZABONI TOJIKI
yo dar juctujui'i merosi padaroni Ibrohim Usmonov

Ibrohim Usmonov az jumlai okhirin kasone boqi mondaast, ki hamchunon talosh mekunand, khastaginopazirii khudro dar mavridi bahsi zabon va alifbo namoish dihand. Bisjore digar az kiriliparaston jo jonibdoroni ba istiloh in aqida, ki tojiki judo az forsist jo haqiqatro darjoftand va yo khasta shudand va yo ham in ki bema`nigii da`voyashonro pay burdand va ehsosi khijolat kardand, ki domani in bahsi bema`niro raho sokhtand. Magar Ibrohim Usmonov, ki ba nazar merasad, dar in mai'don tanho mondaast.


Albatta agar peshnihodoti professor Usmonov, ki talosh mekunad kiriliro ba forsi tarjeh dihad, ustuvor bar mabnoi dalelhoi jiddi va ilmi mebud, arzishi pardokhtan ba bahsro medosht. Ammo mutaassifona, in nigoshtaho beshtar chun jehsos va ?araz ma`lum meshavand, to nuqtai nazar.
Joi izhori taassuf boz in ast, ki bar izofai daloili noustuvor, zimni khondani fikri professor Usmonov dar barkhe mavrid shohidi kamogahii u dar barkhe masoil va ziddu naqizii fikri u niz meshavem.
Dar guzorishe "Azija pljus" az qavli Usmonov ovardaast, ki agar bozgasht ba forsi baroi oshnoi bo osori klassik boshad, ki bo in alifbo insho shudaaast, zarurate nadorad, chun to kunun 80% in osor ba kirili bargardon shudaast. In idda`oro metavon tanho mizoni ogahi va oshnoii Ibrohim Usmonov ba osori guzashtagon bo khati forsi donist. Aslan kase takhassus dar shinokhti khat va pazhuhish rui osori forsi nadoshta boshad va sari khudro dar ganjinahoi forsi saped nakarda, naboyad ba khud ijozai sodir kardani chunin izhorotero bidihad. Fikri sohibnazaron dar in zamina ba gunai digar va ba guftai mutakhassison hamai osori bargardonida ba kirili az forsi to kunun haddi aksar 7% osori umumii inshoshuda bo in khatro tashkil namedihad. (Mo ba in mas`ala dar davomi maqola bar khohem gasht, ki guzashtan ba alifboi forsi baroi omukhtani osori guzashta na, ki beshtar baroi oyandai mo va joftani rohi najot zarur ast.)
Digar in ki dar haftanomai "Nigoh" (?16 (083) az 10.07.2008) professor Usmonov megujad, forsi khati mo va padaroni mo va guzashtagoni mo nest. Professori muhtaram da`vo niz pesh ovarda, ki vaqte dar bahsi mahfili "Dialog" kiriliro bar forsi tarjeh medod, kase bo vay yoroi bahsro nadosht va ba oponenti khud piruz omad. KHub, inash havola ba himmati u. Ammo dar mavridi "khati padaron" professor Usmonov dar "Dialog" sad dar sad aksi on chiro gufta bud, ki aknun dar "Nigoh" guftaast. Dar on mahfil Usmonov dar pojoni suhbatash guft, ki in khati guzashtagoni mo, padaroni mo hast, onro bojad donist, omukht, ammo guzashtan ba on shart nest. In bud, ki bilofosila nomzadi ilmi ta`rikh Dustmuhammadi Dust baland shud va guft; Ustod Usmonov chi tur meshavad az padar hama chizashro ba meros giriftu khatashro ne?
Shoyad dar musohibai akhirash Usmonov khostaast khudro isloh kunad va dar barobari chunin suoloti hushmandonai Dustmuhammad qaror nadihad. Ammo boz ham chi islohe.
Nazari man in ast, ki vaqte khati moro az mo giriftand, andesha va tafakkuramon soda shud. Va tafakkur ba mahzi on ki soda shavad, bema`ni meshavad. Va bahshoi bema`nii mo niz hoki az tafakkuri sodai most. Chun tafakkur soda shud, fard qudrati khalloqii khudro az dast medihad.
To zamone, ki andeshai mo soda nashuda bud, dunjo ba harfi mo gush medod. Padaroni mo bo hamin forsi meguftand va hama meshunid. Chun khalloq budand. Metavoned bigued, mo hatto yak asare bo hamin kirili ofaridem, ki mashhuri ofoq shud? Ibrohim Usmonov ba zohiri mas`ala mepardozad va meguyad, forsi moro ba baloghati zindagi namerasonad. Ammo asli muhimtari mas`alaro, ki khat sozandai zehniyat va andesha niz hast, az yod mebarad. Albatta professor inro dar posukhi musohibi noogohi khud megujad, ki suolro nodurust matrah kardaast. Hamsuhbati professor aslan ba mohiyati mas`alai khat vorid nashudaast. Vagarna hej goh nameguft; barkhe meguyand, guzashtan ba forsi mushkili iqtisodii moro hal mekunad. Man az hej da`vogari guzashtan ba forsi chunin guftori bepoya va bemantiqero nashunidaam va nakhondaam. Balki boyad guft, guzashtan ba forsi baroi mo hazina khohad dosht. Va hazinai khele garon. Inro har fardi sohibfikr medonad.
Mo na ironiem, na forsem, na kasi digar, mo tojikem. In ifodai dustdoshtanii professor Usmonov ast, ki akhiran dar sari har mavqe` ba on ta`kid mekunad. Ammo Muhammad Iqbol suole dorad, ki professori muhtaram niz boyad onro az khud karda boshad:

Ey, ki mekhohi nizomi olame,
Yoftai onro asosi mahkame?

Va professori muhtaram, ki da`voi millat mekunad, pushtivonai in millat va in zaboni mustaqil va judo az forsie, ki u megujad, chist? Oyo milate metavonad biduni peshina va sobiqa vujud doshta boshad? Millate, ki guyo dar asri bist ba vujud omada, ammo dar kadom zamina? Sa`divu Hofizu KHayyomu Firdavsi baroi shumo ironi, Mavlonovu Nosiri KHusrav balkhi va afghon, Iqbol pokistoni ast. Suoli man in ast, ki mavodi in zabon, ki shumo megued, ya`ne adabiyoti on az kujost, agar az in buzurgon nest. Vaqte forsiro az tojiki judo medoned, nabojad ba khudaton in haqro bidihed, ki hatto Rudakiro tojik bigued. Dar kujo az khoriji Tojikiston shunided, ki guftand "Rudaki padari she`ri tojiki" yo Firdavsi niz naguftaast; "Ajam zinda kardam bad-in tojiki", yod dored, ki guftaast, "Ajam zinda kardam bad-in porsi". Aknun agar ba mantiqi shumo amal kunem, nabojad Firdavsiro shoiri milli va "Shohnoma"-ro moli tojikon donist. Zero Firdavsi meguyad, zaboni man forsist va ba sarohati tamom megujad. Shumo idda`o mekuned, ki zaboni shumo tojikist, na forsi. Agar idda`o mekarded, ki in zabon, ja`ne zaboni Firdavsi niz tojikist, na forsi mas`alai digare mebud, agarchand boz ham bahsomez. Ammo dur afkandani "Shohnoma" az pai'kari adabijoti tojiki va ruhi hammosii tojik chi ishtibohe nobakhshidani va khijonat ast. Ojo in millatro be "Shohnoma" metavon tasavvur kard?


Alifboi forsi baroi guzashta yo oyanda?!


Ba nazari man guzashtan ba alifboi forsi ham ba oyandai mo zaruri va hatmi hast va ham dar shinokhti guzashta yovari most.
Agar khosta boshem guzashtai khudro ba shakli durustu purra va farogir bishnosem, pas donistani khati forsi noguzir ast. Be donishi alifboi forsi tasavvuri surati daqiqi guzashtai mo nopurra memonad. Zero hamon guna, ki dar bolo gufta guzashtem hanuz jak fisadi nokofii 7 darsadi az merosi garonsangi farhangi forsi ba khati kirili dastjob nest, pas chi guna metavonem az khati forsi dar shinokhti guzashtai khud beniyoz boshem?
Dar majmu` metavon natijagiri kard, ki be donishi alifboi forsi guzashtai khudro daqiq shinokhta nametavonem va pai'dost, ki be shinokhti daqiqi guzashtai khud rohi durustro baroi oyandai khesh nametavonem intikhob kunem. Haq bar jonibi Rasul ?amzatov navisandai shuhratjori do?istoni hast, ki mefarmojad; agar mo ba guzashtai khud az tufangcha tir kholi kunem, ojanda ba mo az tup tir kholi khohad kard. Tamomi da`vihoi Ibrohim Usmonov dar mas`alai bahsi alifboi tojiki da`vat ba beje`tinoi ba guzashta, chizi digare besh buda nametavonad. Zero natijai mantiqii boqi mondan va pusidan dar khati kirili hamin ba guzashta tir kholi kardan va az ojanda niz tir khurdan chizi digare nest.
Ammo dar mas`alai khati forsi baroi ojanda harfhoi guftani va harfhoi noguftai bisjore mavjud ast. Agar az oditarin javoni imruzai asri KHKH1 dar mavridi ojanda bipursed, hatman ba shumo posukh khohad guft, ki ojanda in peshravii ilmu tekhnika va ba vizha peshravi dar sohai fanovari jo tekhnologijai jelektroni meboshad.
Imruz dar peshraftatarin daftaru idorahoi kori kompjuter va Internet unsurhoi asosii kor ba hisob meravand.
Va peshraftatarin barnomahoi kompjuteriro metavon ba zabon va ba khati forsi ba rohati pai'do kard. Narmafzorhoe ba khati forsi mavjudand, ki khudo medonad kai' onho ba khati kirili dar dastras qaror megirand. Bojad baroi on mabla?hoi hangufte ham sarf kard. Nogufta namonad, ki bozori khati kirilii tojiki bozori pulsoze nest va nametavonad sohibkoronro baroi mabla?guzori niz jalb kunad.
Hajmi ma`lumotero, ki kishvari Iron dar Internet ba khat va zaboni forsi joi' dodaast az hajmi ma`lumoti tamomi kishvarhoi arabi beshtar ast. Imruz ba rohati dar har mavzu`e, ki khosta boshem, metavon bo hurufi forsi ma`lumoti daqiqu duruste, khabare, tahlile pai'do kard.
Jei' kosh Ibrohim Usmonov, ki nakunad to dar surati forsi shudani khati davlati dar Tojikiston profesorijash zeri suol qaror bigirad, lahzae dar pojai jak kompjuteri pai'vast bo Internet menishast va dar mavzu`oti mavridi nazari khudash bo forsi justuju mekard va halovat meburd va digar hargiz az khati kirili, ki ru ba inqiroz ast va dast zadan ba on dar girdobi muhliki jahonishavi moro ba hech kujo khohad burd, dast mekashid.
Hama chiz ba fanovari va yoftani ittilo` va donish bo khati forsi mavjud ast va zarurati ikhtiro`i duborai ducharkha amali behuda va khandador ast.

17:07:2008 09:31
R. Davlat

http://www.millat.tj.../zabon/page/78/

Kambiz

Posted 18 July 2008 - 01:02 PM

The article has got a signature: R. Davlat.

If 'Millat' is your favorite (it used to be mine as well, but ages ago) you must know the person.

Rahmatkarim Davlat - the editor-in-chief Adalat Mirza's husband. RFE/RL reporter.

Fortunately, there are more supporters of the Persian script in Tajikistan now than ever. Therefore, the topic appears on papers almost every week. And no, the topic is not being discussed here only and I doubt Rahmatkarim being among us.

[QUOTE=Dushanbe;11579]Well, it is a pity that you cannot read Cyrillic. Yesterday I read one article in my favorite newspaper "millat" an article against Tajik professor Ibrohim Usmonov's views on this issue. http://www.millat.tj.../zabon/page/78/

I have a strong feeling that it was written by one (or two) of the members of this forum.

22nd of July is the day of Tajik language in Tajikistan, for this reason it is being widely discussed among writers.

Iosif Stalin has a lot of sayings, and one of them is: "The writers are the engineers of human minds"[/QUOTE]

Kambiz

Posted 18 July 2008 - 01:04 PM

[QUOTE=Dushanbe;11585]Actually, many young people somehow can read Persian - those of my age and bellow.[/QUOTE]

That's a good sign showing the perspective of our official script in Tajikistan.

dokhtare pulegun

Posted 18 July 2008 - 04:14 PM

I prefer "Latin" script for every day use such as on the internet and chat because of the lack of youth who can read Perso-Arabic well. However, like many who have already stated, knowing Perso-Arabic has its advantages especially for reading the beauty that is our arts and literature..

Kambiz

Posted 19 July 2008 - 02:16 AM

[QUOTE=dokhtare pulegun;11609]I prefer "Latin" script for every day use such as on the internet and chat because of the lack of youth who can read Perso-Arabic well. However, like many who have already stated, knowing Perso-Arabic has its advantages especially for reading the beauty that is our arts and literature..[/QUOTE]

I know what you mean. But I think it would be better to encourage the youth to learn their own script in order to save it from a total obliteration.

By the way, very glad to see you here. We need more of our dear sisters to join our discussions.

dokhtare pulegun

Posted 19 July 2008 - 02:30 AM

Thank you, I feel honored to be here =)

In regards to the different writings: If someone truly wishes to learn it, they will learn it. I was never taught Perso-Arabic in my life but I yearned to be able to read our stories in their original writing. That was when I decided to teach myself to read it. Now I can read Perso-Arabic perfectly fine even though I've come to realize it takes much memorization!

Kambiz

Posted 19 July 2008 - 03:30 AM

[QUOTE=dokhtare pulegun;11628]Thank you, I feel honored to be here =)

In regards to the different writings: If someone truly wishes to learn it, they will learn it. I was never taught Perso-Arabic in my life but I yearned to be able to read our stories in their original writing. That was when I decided to teach myself to read it. Now I can read Perso-Arabic perfectly fine even though I've come to realize it takes much memorization![/QUOTE]


Congrats and well done! Unfortunately not everybody yearns for it as there is no much need to learn Persian if you are abroad. Subsequently, most of us prefer to type in Latin.

Ahhangar

Posted 19 July 2008 - 11:46 PM

[QUOTE=Kambiz;11536]
??? ?? ??? ??

??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ? * ??? ?? ???

??? ? ?? ?? ??? ?? ?? ?? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??? ??? ? ? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? . ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ?? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ?? ??? ??. ?? ??? ! ?? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?. ??? ?? ?? ?? ?? ??? ? ?? ??? ? ?? ?? ?* ??? ??? ?? ??? ? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ?* ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ?? ??? ? ?? ??? ??? ?? ?? ?? ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ?? ? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ?? ? ?? ? ? (?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ? ??? ?? ??? ??? ). ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ?? ? ?? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ??? ?? ??? ?. ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ?* ??? ??? ?? ? ??? ? ?? ?? ?? ??? ?

??? ??? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ?? ??? ??? ??? ? ?? ??. ??? ? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??? ? ? ??? ? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? . ??? ?? ?? ?? ??? ? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ??? ? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ?* ??? ?? ??? ? ? ??? ? * ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ?? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ?. ??? ??? ?? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ??? ? ?? ?? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??? ? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? . ??? ? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ?? ??? .

??? ? ??? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ??
??? ???
[/QUOTE]

Dear Darius/Kambiz,

I have no opposition to the Perso-Arabic script and I have no desire to replace it with Perso-Latin. That is not my idea. That is the intension of the creators of 'UniPers'. My ideas are solely aimed at Tajikistan - and not the Persian speaking world in general. Do not confuse yourself or anyone else.

My idea is that since it is next to impossible for whatever reason in Tajikistan to convert back to the Perso-Arabic script - the case of changing to a Latin script will probably be more achievable within Tajikistan. In addition to that change from Cyrillic to Latin - it will also be advantageous to start the teaching of Perso-Arabic script as an extra subject at school. This is a solution I feel best to the current deadlock over a refusal by the politicians to change to the "Islamic, non secular" Perso Arabic script. It is a solution that is meant for the political and geographic borders of secularist Tajikistan.

The advantage over Cyrillic with Latin is that the Latin is readable to all outside and understandable to the Persian speaking peoples outside of Tajikistan. The phonetics will still be there - yes - but at least it will be readable.

My emphasis on the Latin alphabet being based phonetically upon Parsi e Dari - which is not the accent I speak normally - and it is not an accent specific to any geography - it is the classical Parsi - that should be known by all Persian speakers. Since the current phonetic script is utterly wrong - why not use the opportunity that a change to Latin will give to bring in about classical Parsi ? The reason I do not see this as an imposition of my own dialect on Tajikistan is because I differentiate between official/formal/classical of our language and the common day to day form of the language - and so I believe that all of our accents - as being part of the common non formal speech should not be used when speaking formally and certainly they should not be 'official'. The only formal/official form of the language that should be acceptable to all is the Parsi e Dari - the classical form. This is how it is in Afghanistan - where we have countless local dialects of Persian some of which are so different from each other that the the speakers of the two will have significant trouble in understanding each other - we all use one set formal Parsi when we are being formal. Even though the influence of the accent are still present in the formal speak - it is much less than in the common day to day speech.

So contrary to your false slanders of Perso-Latin based on Parsi e Dari will make us more divided - it will make us closer - not only at script level - but in formal speech as well.


The other thing I pointed to you is that a change to Perso-Arabic straight away - will not resolve the incorrect and fake sounding foreign influeuce that has been imposed upon the Persian of Central Asia - since the use of an incorrect phonetic alphabet has been in use for so long- the removal of the phonetics (most of them) with the introduction of Perso-Arabic will just mean that the population of Tajikistan will continue to use the same fake sounding sounds they were taught in all of this time through the incorrect phonetic letters. The only effective way to get rid of the bad fake sounding phonetics is to impose a correct set of phonetics. And since the politician and education intellectual of Tajikistan have been so happy with phonetics up to now - it only makes logical sense to think that they would be more prepared to think about adjusting the phonetics to make them more correct - rather than to get rid of them. So - once again WAKE UP !


I have told you that simply writing the perverted Bukhari-Khujandi dialect in Perso-Arabic is not enough - the population need to be taught Parsi e Dari (grammatically) be their formal language and to drop the Bukhari Khujandi dialect to the status of common speech only - not formal and not written. That way the people of Tajikistan and other Persian of Central Asia whom do not have the Bukhari-Khujjandi dialect as their native local dialect will not feel like another dialect is being imposed upon them. This adoption of one classical formal form for the language all over will rightly relegate all of the local dialects to the status of non official and non formal languages - and just leave the classical to be accepted by all - belonging to all equally.

The Perso-Arabic text of Sadruddin Ayni is the best example of the change to Perso-Arabic not being enough to resolve the differences - since he wrote not in the form of Persian used in the writing of Afghanistan-Iran - he put to paper a LOCAL DIALECT - something that would never be done in Iran-Afghanistan, and hugly frowned upon. Imagine the problems of someone from Herat put to paper their local dialect and a Kabuli did the same with his local dialect and the number of problems that would create within Afghanistan. The only way to get around it is to use one classical form of the language in formalities/officialdom.


But this idea of affecting the actual language instead of just the script and restoring the formal and non formal forms of the language is simply too hard for you to understand, since you have been brought up in an environment that does not differentiate between the two. I understand that - I hope you will also - eventually.

Ahhangar

Ahhangar

Posted 20 July 2008 - 12:10 AM

[QUOTE=Kambiz;11535]Ahhangar,

Do you have a good command of Cyrillic yourself? Where did you get your idea about problems of the Cyrillic script from?

And listen brother. There is no need for setting an alarm clock for me. You are talking about a topic that has been my matter of concern for a decade. Maybe it's time for you to wake up and realize that only by getting back to the Persian script all the lapses will be rectified. Because it is not a dead or non-existent script. Our Persians still write and read in the Persian script. Only the Persian script is able to wash away the linguistic blunders of the past. Whereas your Latin is a vague script based on a utopic idea. And even if your dream comes true, it will only harm our nation.

I think the question has been thoroughly discussed and you are repeating yourself. Get back if you got something new to say.

Cheers[/QUOTE]

You fail to engage my point and think you have refuted them - you are not addressing them hence you are being repeated to, 10 different way and with lots of elaboration and examples - but yet u still refuse to engage what is written and get distracted with false assumption, and I am sorry to say - deliberate misrepresentation of my ideas.

It has been your matter of concern for a decade ? Are you sure? Have you been wondering why in all of this time there has been no acceptance of something like your idea? Or have you been concerned with making sure that Cyrillic stays as the official script though proposing unrealistic demands? You say that Latin is not even an option - then maybe it is should become one in order to get things moving and bring about a change - that would be better than the current Cyrillic - even if it is not the same as that of Afghanistan-Iran. And you can Parsi e Dari - as UTOPIC - it is fully applied in Afghanistan - so it is perfectly real today.

There is an effectiveness of having a correct phonetic Latin script alongside the Perso-Arabic in teaching the whole of Persian in a much better way,that cannot be ignored. It will do alot to sort out the shortcomings of the Perso-Arabic script.

You say that changing Latinwill harm our nation. Our Persian nation is much more offended by having a non readable obscure script and LOCAL DIALECT imposed as the official language of a historically Persian area. Changing from Cyrillic to Latin in Tajikistan will lessen the offense and reduce the harm and much more likely to occur than a change to Perso-Arabic.

So far in Tajikistan you people have not even been able to introduce Perso-Arabic text as an extra subject and you want to make it official !

So once again WAKE UP and be more realistic.

Ahhangar

Kambiz

Posted 20 July 2008 - 01:37 AM

??? ??

??? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ? ?? ??? ??? ??? ? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?* ?? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ? ? ?? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? * ??? ??? ?

?? ??? ?? ?*?? ??? ? ?? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ? ? ??? ? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ?? ? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ?? ??? ? " ??? ?? ??!" ?? ?? ?? ?? ??? . ??? ? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ?? ??. ??? ? ??? ?? ??? .

??? ?? ?? *?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? . ??? * ??? . ?? ??? ?? ??? ?? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??. ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ? ?? ??? ??? ??? . ?? ?? ?? ??? ??? ? ??? ?. ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? . *?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ? ?? ?? ??? ?? ?? ?? ??? ??? ??? ??? ???

?? ?? ?? ??? ??? ??? ?? ? ??? ??? ? ?? ?? ?* ??? ?? ??? ??? ? ??. ?? ??? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??? ?? ?? ?? ?*?? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ??? ??? ?. ?? ??? ? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? .

??? ? ??? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ? ??? ??? ?? *?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? ?. ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ?? ??? ? ?? ?? ??? * ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ??? . ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?

?? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ?? ? ??? ? ??? ? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? . ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? . ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? *?? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ?? ?? ?? *? ??? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? . ??? ? ?? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ?

?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? *?? ??? ??? ??? ? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?. ??? ? ??? ??? ?* ??? ? ?? ??? ??? ?? ?*?? ??? ? ??? ?? ???

??? ? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ?? ?? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? . ??? *?? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ?? ? *?? ??? ? ??? ??? ?

??? ??

[quote=ahhangar;11688]dear darius/kambiz,

i have no opposition to the perso-arabic script and i have no desire to replace it with perso-latin. That is not my idea. That is the intension of the creators of 'unipers'. My ideas are solely aimed at tajikistan - and not the persian speaking world in general. Do not confuse yourself or anyone else.

My idea is that since it is next to impossible for whatever reason in tajikistan to convert back to the perso-arabic script - the case of changing to a latin script will probably be more achievable within tajikistan. In addition to that change from cyrillic to latin - it will also be advantageous to start the teaching of perso-arabic script as an extra subject at school. This is a solution i feel best to the current deadlock over a refusal by the politicians to change to the "islamic, non secular" perso arabic script. It is a solution that is meant for the political and geographic borders of secularist tajikistan.

The advantage over cyrillic with latin is that the latin is readable to all outside and understandable to the persian speaking peoples outside of tajikistan. The phonetics will still be there - yes - but at least it will be readable.

My emphasis on the latin alphabet being based phonetically upon parsi e dari - which is not the accent i speak normally - and it is not an accent specific to any geography - it is the classical parsi - that should be known by all persian speakers. Since the current phonetic script is utterly wrong - why not use the opportunity that a change to latin will give to bring in about classical parsi ? The reason i do not see this as an imposition of my own dialect on tajikistan is because i differentiate between official/formal/classical of our language and the common day to day form of the language - and so i believe that all of our accents - as being part of the common non formal speech should not be used when speaking formally and certainly they should not be 'official'. The only formal/official form of the language that should be acceptable to all is the parsi e dari - the classical form. This is how it is in afghanistan - where we have countless local dialects of persian some of which are so different from each other that the the speakers of the two will have significant trouble in understanding each other - we all use one set formal parsi when we are being formal. Even though the influence of the accent are still present in the formal speak - it is much less than in the common day to day speech.

So contrary to your false slanders of perso-latin based on parsi e dari will make us more divided - it will make us closer - not only at script level - but in formal speech as well.


The other thing i pointed to you is that a change to perso-arabic straight away - will not resolve the incorrect and fake sounding foreign influeuce that has been imposed upon the persian of central asia - since the use of an incorrect phonetic alphabet has been in use for so long- the removal of the phonetics (most of them) with the introduction of perso-arabic will just mean that the population of tajikistan will continue to use the same fake sounding sounds they were taught in all of this time through the incorrect phonetic letters. The only effective way to get rid of the bad fake sounding phonetics is to impose a correct set of phonetics. And since the politician and education intellectual of tajikistan have been so happy with phonetics up to now - it only makes logical sense to think that they would be more prepared to think about adjusting the phonetics to make them more correct - rather than to get rid of them. So - once again wake up !


I have told you that simply writing the perverted bukhari-khujandi dialect in perso-arabic is not enough - the population need to be taught parsi e dari (grammatically) be their formal language and to drop the bukhari khujandi dialect to the status of common speech only - not formal and not written. That way the people of tajikistan and other persian of central asia whom do not have the bukhari-khujjandi dialect as their native local dialect will not feel like another dialect is being imposed upon them. This adoption of one classical formal form for the language all over will rightly relegate all of the local dialects to the status of non official and non formal languages - and just leave the classical to be accepted by all - belonging to all equally.

The perso-arabic text of sadruddin ayni is the best example of the change to perso-arabic not being enough to resolve the differences - since he wrote not in the form of persian used in the writing of afghanistan-iran - he put to paper a local dialect - something that would never be done in iran-afghanistan, and hugly frowned upon. Imagine the problems of someone from herat put to paper their local dialect and a kabuli did the same with his local dialect and the number of problems that would create within afghanistan. The only way to get around it is to use one classical form of the language in formalities/officialdom.


But this idea of affecting the actual language instead of just the script and restoring the formal and non formal forms of the language is simply too hard for you to understand, since you have been brought up in an environment that does not differentiate between the two. I understand that - i hope you will also - eventually.

Ahhangar[/quote]

Kambiz

Posted 20 July 2008 - 01:48 AM

??? ? ??? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ? ??? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ?? ??? ? ??? ?.

??? ? ?? ??? ? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ? ?? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??? ??.? *?? ??? ??? ? ?? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ( ??? ?) ??? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?. ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ?? ?? ??? ??? ?? ?? *?? ??? ? ??? ???. ??? ? ??? ? ?? ?? ??? ??? . ??? ? ?? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?

??? ?? ?? ??? ? ?* ??? ? ??? ??? ?? ? ?? *? ??? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??? . ?? ??? ? ??? ? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ???


[quote=ahhangar;11689]you fail to engage my point and think you have refuted them - you are not addressing them hence you are being repeated to, 10 different way and with lots of elaboration and examples - but yet u still refuse to engage what is written and get distracted with false assumption, and i am sorry to say - deliberate misrepresentation of my ideas.

It has been your matter of concern for a decade ? Are you sure? Have you been wondering why in all of this time there has been no acceptance of something like your idea? Or have you been concerned with making sure that cyrillic stays as the official script though proposing unrealistic demands? You say that latin is not even an option - then maybe it is should become one in order to get things moving and bring about a change - that would be better than the current cyrillic - even if it is not the same as that of afghanistan-iran. And you can parsi e dari - as utopic - it is fully applied in afghanistan - so it is perfectly real today.

There is an effectiveness of having a correct phonetic latin script alongside the perso-arabic in teaching the whole of persian in a much better way,that cannot be ignored. It will do alot to sort out the shortcomings of the perso-arabic script.

You say that changing latinwill harm our nation. Our persian nation is much more offended by having a non readable obscure script and local dialect imposed as the official language of a historically persian area. Changing from cyrillic to latin in tajikistan will lessen the offense and reduce the harm and much more likely to occur than a change to perso-arabic.

So far in tajikistan you people have not even been able to introduce perso-arabic text as an extra subject and you want to make it official !

So once again wake up and be more realistic.

Ahhangar[/quote]

Kambiz

Posted 20 July 2008 - 01:49 AM

??? ? ??? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ? ??? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ?? ??? ? ??? ?.

??? ? ?? ??? ? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ? ?? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??? ??.? *?? ??? ??? ? ?? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ( ??? ?) ??? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?. ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ?? ?? ??? ??? ?? ?? *?? ??? ? ??? ???. ??? ? ??? ? ?? ?? ??? ??? . ??? ? ?? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?

??? ?? ?? ??? ? ?* ??? ? ??? ??? ?? ? ?? *? ??? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??? . ?? ??? ? ??? ? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ???


[quote=ahhangar;11689]you fail to engage my point and think you have refuted them - you are not addressing them hence you are being repeated to, 10 different way and with lots of elaboration and examples - but yet u still refuse to engage what is written and get distracted with false assumption, and i am sorry to say - deliberate misrepresentation of my ideas.

It has been your matter of concern for a decade ? Are you sure? Have you been wondering why in all of this time there has been no acceptance of something like your idea? Or have you been concerned with making sure that cyrillic stays as the official script though proposing unrealistic demands? You say that latin is not even an option - then maybe it is should become one in order to get things moving and bring about a change - that would be better than the current cyrillic - even if it is not the same as that of afghanistan-iran. And you can parsi e dari - as utopic - it is fully applied in afghanistan - so it is perfectly real today.

There is an effectiveness of having a correct phonetic latin script alongside the perso-arabic in teaching the whole of persian in a much better way,that cannot be ignored. It will do alot to sort out the shortcomings of the perso-arabic script.

You say that changing latinwill harm our nation. Our persian nation is much more offended by having a non readable obscure script and local dialect imposed as the official language of a historically persian area. Changing from cyrillic to latin in tajikistan will lessen the offense and reduce the harm and much more likely to occur than a change to perso-arabic.

So far in tajikistan you people have not even been able to introduce perso-arabic text as an extra subject and you want to make it official !

So once again wake up and be more realistic.

Ahhangar[/quote]

Kambiz

Posted 20 July 2008 - 01:58 AM

Once more: the Persian script IS Being taught in schools of Tajikistan. Disregard Ahhangar's disinformation pls.

Kambiz

Posted 20 July 2008 - 02:16 AM

The Persian script IS being taught in Tajikistan's schools. Disregard Ahhangar's disinformation pls.

Ahhangar

Posted 20 July 2008 - 11:47 PM

Quote

The Persian script IS being taught in Tajikistan's schools. Disregard Ahhangar's disinformation pls.


Quote

Once more: the Persian script IS Being taught in schools of Tajikistan. Disregard Ahhangar's disinformation pls.


Quote

??? ? ??? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ? ??? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ?? ??? ? ??? ?. ??? ? ?? ??? ? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ? ?? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??? ??.? *?? ??? ??? ? ?? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ( ??? ?) ??? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?. ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ?? ?? ??? ??? ?? ?? *?? ??? ? ??? ???. ??? ? ??? ? ?? ?? ??? ??? . ??? ? ?? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ??? ? ?* ??? ? ??? ??? ?? ? ?? *? ??? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??? . ?? ??? ? ??? ? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ???


Quote

??? ? ??? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ? ??? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ?? ??? ? ??? ?. ??? ? ?? ??? ? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ? ?? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??? ??.? *?? ??? ??? ? ?? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ( ??? ?) ??? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?. ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ?? ?? ??? ??? ?? ?? *?? ??? ? ??? ???. ??? ? ??? ? ?? ?? ??? ??? . ??? ? ?? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ??? ? ?* ??? ? ??? ??? ?? ? ?? *? ??? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??? . ?? ??? ? ??? ? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ???




Well - judging from the Tajik people I have come across - whom have no knowledge of Perso-Arabic script it is quite evident that the efforts in Tajikistan are not enough. In this forum it has been mentioned more than a few times that the only people whom really know the Perso-Arabic text in Tajikistan are those whom study Persian literature at a very high level, which is a tiny minority. I understand that a law was passed in the early nineties to reintroduce the Perso-Arabic text in education - but that has not been enough to be persuasive amongst the whole population. However - thanks for correcting that misplaced conclusion of mine.

You boast about you knowing about the situation of Tajikistan and me not - so why don't you outline the arguments - for and against each of the proposals? That would be more beneficial to all and would serve my purpose for engaging in a discussion - instead of just being arrogant and giving curt replies -'Child' - 'You don't know Tajikistan - you should stop talking', or using my English non-Phonetic writing of 'Parsi e Dari' as a case in point for rejecting phonetic Latin - which is totally flawed - even if there is a real reason to reject Latin - it is certainly not the reason you used in that example. It certainly makes me laugh when I see such attempts.

My whole purpose on this forum is to generate debate - and traffic- and to bring to the screen all the points - no matter how obvious - so that we can all be informed. And none of this debate is on record none of them have any political cost since it is just a debate between interested people in a non official capacity. So - in that spirit try to consider each idea on its own merits and outline

Quote

??? ? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ? ?? ??? ??? ??? ? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?* ?? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ? ? ?? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? * ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ?*?? ??? ? ?? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ? ? ??? ? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ?? ? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ?? ??? ? " ??? ?? ??!" ?? ?? ?? ?? ??? . ??? ? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ?? ??. ??? ? ??? ?? ??? . ??? ?? ?? *?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? . ??? * ??? . ?? ??? ?? ??? ?? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??. ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ? ?? ??? ??? ??? . ?? ?? ?? ??? ??? ? ??? ?. ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? . *?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ? ?? ?? ??? ?? ?? ?? ??? ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ? ?? ?? ??? ??? ??? ?? ? ??? ??? ? ?? ?? ?* ??? ?? ??? ??? ? ??. ?? ??? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??? ?? ?? ?? ?*?? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ??? ??? ?. ?? ??? ? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? . ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ? ??? ??? ?? *?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? ?. ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ?? ??? ? ?? ?? ??? * ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ??? . ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ?? ? ??? ? ??? ? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? . ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? . ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? *?? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ?? ?? ?? *? ??? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? . ??? ? ?? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? *?? ??? ??? ??? ? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?. ??? ? ??? ??? ?* ??? ? ?? ??? ??? ?? ?*?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ?? ?? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? . ??? *?? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ?? ? *?? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ??? ??


Darius/Kambiz,

You question my assertion that the language of Sadruddin Ayni is not the language of Afghanistan-Iran on the basis of saying that Pashtuns have imposed various thing upon the day to day language of Afghanistan and thus I should worry about that. You once again mix up the day to day usage of Kabul with that of Parsi e Dari. The written form of the language is exactly the same in Iran-Afghanistan - and it is not limited to just the script - but to grammar as well and forms of the words, but Sadruddin Aynis Perso-Arabic script is different - in more than just a the use of a few different words - but in the sentence structure and grammar. I understood all of it due to my having the knowledge of the ROSTAYE language of my ancestral lands and thus recognized most of the words that are not used in the foral Persian of my Afghanistan-Iran.

The basic fact remains that for the purposes of unity for all the Persian speaking world - the written formal form of the language should be no different anywhere - not just in script - but in grammar and structure. The fact that a LOCAL DIALECT has been raised to the level of OFFICIAL language - in Tajikistan is a big problem in and of it self - even if it written in Perso-Arabic text. So far you have not told us what you propose to resolve this problem - maybe since you do not see it as a problem?

Anyhow - I intend to more research on this topic - and hope to understand the arguments for and against each proposal that has been debated since perestroika/glasnost in detail - and I hope that you will be forthcoming in sharing your knowledge about those debates - for the benefit of us all.

Ahhangar

Ahhangar

Posted 20 July 2008 - 11:55 PM

Dorood all,


YOU CAN USE THIS FOLLOWING SITE TO TRANSLITERATE CURRENT CyRILLIC TAJIK SITES into the Latin (script) used in 1920s Tajikistan prior to the adoption of CYRILLIC. It is not ideal - but at least it can be read by more people.





Ahhangar

Kambiz

Posted 21 July 2008 - 12:55 AM

??? ? ??? ? ?? ??? ? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ??*? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??? . ? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? *?? ?? ??? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ? ???

??? ??? ??

?? ??? ?? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ?? ??? ?. ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ?? ??? * ??? ? ? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ??? ? ?? ??? ?* ??? ?? ??? ??? ? ?? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ??

??? ? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ?? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ?. ??? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??? ? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? . ??? ? ??? ? ??? ??? ?? ??? * ??? ? ??? ?? ??? .

?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ?? " ??? ?? ??? " ??? ?? ?? ??? ??? ??? . ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ? ??? ?? ? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?. ?? ??? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? " ??? ? ??? " ? ?? ??? ??

?? ??? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? . ??? ? ??? ??? ??? ?? ?? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ? "?" ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ? ??? ? ?? ??? ? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?* ??? ? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ?? ? ??? ? ??? ? ???

??? ? ??? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? *?? ??? ?? ??? ? ? ??? ? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?? ?? * ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ? ?? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? . ??? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ? ?? ??? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? : ??? ? ??? ??? ?? ??? ? ? ??? ? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? . ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ? ??? ? ?? ??? ??? ? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??? ? ? ??? ?? ??? ? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ?? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ? ? ??? ? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? . ?? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ? ?? ??? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ? ? ??? ? ??? . ??? ? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ?? ??? ?? ? ??? ??? ?? ??? . ?? ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? . ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??* ? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ?? ? ??? ??? ?? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??*? ?? ?? ?? ??? ??? ? ??? ? ?? ?? ??? ??.

?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??. ??? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ?? ??? ??? ?* ??? . ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??. ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??. ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ?? ?? ?? ?* ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ? ?? ??? ?? ?? ?? ??? ? " ??? ?? ??? " ??? ? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ?? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ?

? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? 1990 ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? ? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?. ??? ? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? 1980 ?? ??? ?? ??? ?. ? ??? ? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ??? ? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ?? ??? ?


[quote=ahhangar;11729]well - judging from the tajik people i have come across - whom have no knowledge of perso-arabic script it is quite evident that the efforts in tajikistan are not enough. In this forum it has been mentioned more than a few times that the only people whom really know the perso-arabic text in tajikistan are those whom study persian literature at a very high level, which is a tiny minority. I understand that a law was passed in the early nineties to reintroduce the perso-arabic text in education - but that has not been enough to be persuasive amongst the whole population. However - thanks for correcting that misplaced conclusion of mine.

You boast about you knowing about the situation of tajikistan and me not - so why don't you outline the arguments - for and against each of the proposals? That would be more beneficial to all and would serve my purpose for engaging in a discussion - instead of just being arrogant and giving curt replies -'child' - 'you don't know tajikistan - you should stop talking', or using my english non-phonetic writing of 'parsi e dari' as a case in point for rejecting phonetic latin - which is totally flawed - even if there is a real reason to reject latin - it is certainly not the reason you used in that example. It certainly makes me laugh when i see such attempts.

My whole purpose on this forum is to generate debate - and traffic- and to bring to the screen all the points - no matter how obvious - so that we can all be informed. And none of this debate is on record none of them have any political cost since it is just a debate between interested people in a non official capacity. So - in that spirit try to consider each idea on its own merits and outline



darius/kambiz,

you question my assertion that the language of sadruddin ayni is not the language of afghanistan-iran on the basis of saying that pashtuns have imposed various thing upon the day to day language of afghanistan and thus i should worry about that. You once again mix up the day to day usage of kabul with that of parsi e dari. The written form of the language is exactly the same in iran-afghanistan - and it is not limited to just the script - but to grammar as well and forms of the words, but sadruddin aynis perso-arabic script is different - in more than just a the use of a few different words - but in the sentence structure and grammar. I understood all of it due to my having the knowledge of the rostaye language of my ancestral lands and thus recognized most of the words that are not used in the foral persian of my afghanistan-iran.

The basic fact remains that for the purposes of unity for all the persian speaking world - the written formal form of the language should be no different anywhere - not just in script - but in grammar and structure. The fact that a local dialect has been raised to the level of official language - in tajikistan is a big problem in and of it self - even if it written in perso-arabic text. So far you have not told us what you propose to resolve this problem - maybe since you do not see it as a problem?

Anyhow - i intend to more research on this topic - and hope to understand the arguments for and against each proposal that has been debated since perestroika/glasnost in detail - and i hope that you will be forthcoming in sharing your knowledge about those debates - for the benefit of us all.

Ahhangar[/quote]

Phoenix

Posted 21 July 2008 - 01:15 PM

None of them. Farsi is fine!

PORS

Posted 22 July 2008 - 04:59 AM

Is this debate still going? When are we going to talk about implementing some of our suggestions?



Pors.

Afrasiab

Posted 23 July 2008 - 02:53 PM

Discussion of the alphabet with Dariush Rajabiyan in the known Tajik internet-site of "Asia-Plus"

Doriushi RAJABIYON, maxsus baroi somonai ASIA-Plus

Biduni bozgasht ba xatti porsi mo gharibu dastitanho xohem mond: jak jazirai sirillik dar uqjonusi lotin va judo az hamzabonone, ki xattashon hamchunon misli qadim porsist.


Dar dili jangalhoi Brazil qavme hast bo nomi Piroho (Pirah), ki zindagie ibtidoi'i dorand va zabone beandoza soda. Ba gunae, ki shumori ashyo dar in zabon bartar az du nameravad. Ja`ne vozhahoe, ki dar in zabon baroi shumorishi ashyo mavjud ast, yak, du va bisyor ast. Pazhuhandagoni ravonshinos va mardumshinos pas az kashfi in qavm va anjomi barxe ozmoishho ba natijae rasidaand, ki zabon nahvai tafakkuri moro mushakhas mekunad.

Namoyandagoni qavmi Piroho ba osoni' metavonistand du zarba rui taxtaro takror kunand. Ammo agar shumori zarbaho beshtar az du bor meshud, takrori zarbaxo baroi pirohoi'iho dushvor bud. Onho dar ta`i'ini shumori daqiqi ashyoe, ki beshtar az du adad bud xam mushkil doshtand. Chun afrodi in qavm nudratan bo adade bolotar az du sarukor doshtaand.

In ozmoish dar bahsi duru darozi taqaddumi zabon yo andesha nakshi muhimme dosht va bartarii zabon bar andesharo to haddi ziyode sobit kard. To on zamon in bahs shabehi bahsi takaddumi murg yo tuxmi murg bud. Ammo pas on beshtari donishpazhuhon mutmain shudand, ki zabon ta`i'inqunandai andesha ast. Ya`ne zabon ast, ki andesharo shakl medihad.

In bad-on ma`nost, ki zaboni mo har andoza purbortar va purmuhtavotar boshad, andeshai mo niz ba hamon andoza farogirtar va peshravtar ast.

Hamin ozmoishro dar Tojikiston niz metavon anchom dod va az mardum na shumori ashyo, balki nomi ehsosotero pursid, ki ba onho dast medihad. Masalan, ba hangomi didani sahnai zibh (kushtan)-i yak gov chi' hisse ba shumo dast medihad? Yo vaqte ki mujassamai Leninro sarnagun kardand, shumo chi hisse doshted? Yo istiqloli Tojikiston chi hissero dar shumo ba vujud ovard?


Az pesh metavon guft, ki beshtari posuxho ba in pursishhoi mutafovit hamson xohad bud: Kim-chi khel.

Kim-chi khel dar mavridhoe ba kor meravad, ki nomi on his yo ehsos baroi guyanda gung boshad. Va dar voqe`, dar beshtari mavorid dar zehxni guyanda hech vozhae chuz kim-chi xel pai'do nameshavad. Chi hissi vahshatu inzichor, chi hissi shodiyu sha`af bo yak tarkibi garibi kim-chi xel bajon meshavad, ki xoki' az benavoii vaxshatnoki vozhagonii porsigujoni Tojikiston ast. Ya`ne ba har andoza zaboni mo benavotar ast, ba hamon andoza tavlidi fikrii mo kamrangtar ast.

Yak kudaki panchsolai eroni' metavonad bo sad bayon ba zaboni mo ehsosi xudro dar mavridi yakoyaki in sahnaho bayon kunad, ammo mo bo kim-chi xel iktifo mekunem va gofil az khatare hastem, ki buniyai millati Tojikistonro tahdid mekunad.

Mushkili zabon, ki ma`mulan ba xato chuz`i mushkiloti aslii kishvar ba shumor nameravad, ba rosti', moyai bisyore az giriftorihoi digar ast. Dar guzashta donishvaroni mo ba zaboni rusi' fikru ejod mekardand va goliban baroi har mafhume dar zehni xud yo rui kogaz vozhae xos yo istilohe doshtand. Aknun, ki zaboni rusi' oshkoro az sarzamini mo raxt barbasta va porsii tojiki' joi'guzini on shudaast, mushkil huvai'dost. Donishvaron ham aksaran nozo shudaand, chun baroi bisyore az mafhumho vozhae dar zehni xud surog nadorand.

Zaboni tarjumazada va masnu`ii hozirai tojiki' bo taqozoi zamona sozgor nest va ta`assubi bejihati mo mone` az bozgashti zaboni modarimon ba harimi xatti porsi' meshavad, to az farovardaho (mahsulot)-i zehnii hamzabononamon kor bigirem. Dar Eron hamaruza dahho unvon kitob chop meshavad, ki barxe tarjuma az zabonhoi gai'rand va shumore az osori xudi'. Nadonistani zaboni modari' (porsi') ba nahvi ahsant mone` az xondan va darki mazmuni on kitobho meshavad.

Hanuz iddae ba in pindori botiland, ki fikri bozgasht ba xatti porsii arabi' zoidai tafakkuri dasisachuyon ast. Dar hole ki in andesha chand sol pesh az istikloli Tojikiston va nufuzi neruhoi xoriji' bar kishvar buruz karda bud va irtibote bo xorichiho nadorad. In andesha, ba rosti', zoidai kishri ravshanfikri chome`a bud, ki sarkub shud. Kishre, ki ehsos mekard, biduni bozgasht ba xatti porsi' mo garibu dastitanho xohem mond: yak chazirai sirillik dar ukyonusi lotin va chudo az hamzabonone, ki xattashon hamchunon misli kadim porsist. Dar on sui marzho daryoe az ganchi donish ravon ast. Donish ba zaboni porsii tojiki', ki mo ba on dastrasi' nadorem. Tanho ba xotiri xatti tahmilii sirillik, ki xostai millat nabud.

Pazirishi xathoi begonai lotin va sirillik tanho daleli gusastagii mo az andeshai porsii tojhikist. Dar natija, shumo hech sho`iri shuravi' va pasoshuravii Tojikistonro pai'do namekuned, ki ash`orash az lihozi zabonu bayon ishkole nadoshta boshad. Baroi namuna, dar barxe az she`rho vozhai Sino-ro bo bino (ba ma`nii imorat) kofiya mebandand, ki ba daleli kutohii i dar vozhai duvvum galat ast. Va bino ba ma`nii shaxse, ki mebinad bo bino ba ma`nii soxtmon yakson navishta meshavad, ki boz ham galat ast. Bino-i naxust bo i-i darozi xud mutamoiz ast, ki dar xatti sirillik namoyon nest. Az in namunayo, ki nosozgorii xatti sirillik bo porsiro sobit mekunad, farovon ast, ammo in tanho daleli zarurati bozgasht ba xatti porsi' nest.

Shumore dalel meovarand, ki dar surati tagi'iri xatt mardumi Tojikiston dubora besavod xohand shud, dar hole ki aknun takriban hama bosavodand. Dar voqe`, in mavzu` bastagi' dorad ba darki mo az mavzu`i savod. Oyo savod tanho ba ma`nii xondanu navishtan ast? Mo bo istifoda az xondanu navishtan chi' chize tavlid mekunem? Hududi 100 darsad mizoni savodi Tojikistonro bo hududi 80 darsadi Eron muqoisa kuned. Tavlidi fikrii kadom yak az in du kishvar beshtar ast?

Va chi' kase gufta, ki sirillikro boyad yakshaba kanor guzosht? Tagi'iri xatt dar kishvarhoi mutamaddin tai'i solhoi daroz ba tadrij anjom meshavad va az yak davrai duxatti' meguzarad, to hamagir shavad.

Voqe`iyati zaboni modarii mo dar kuchavu xiyobonhoi Dushanbe va har shahri buzurgi digari kishvar yak musht harfi pareshon ast, ki dar changi vozhahoi begona dastupo mezanad. Dar bisyore az mavridho boyad hads zad, ki guyanda chi' megujad: Vai'ro girifta vai' kun, ki vai' nashavad. Oyo hamin ast bosavodii farogiri mo? In az naxustin nishonahoi gungist, ki metavonad pas az muddate moro ba holati kavmi Pirohoi Brazil nazdik kunad.

Ludvig Vitgenshtai'n, fai'lasufi olmoni' ba chi zeboi'i gufta bud: Haddu hududi zaboni man haddu hududi jahoni man ast. Mahdudiyati zaboni mo ba ma`nii mahdudiyati jahoni most. Agar man az bayoni mafhumhoe ba zaboni modarii xud ojizam, pas dar amri dastrasi' ba jahoni faroxtar niz nokom xoham bud. Tojikiston, ki aknun kishvare mustakil ast, boyad ba darki in haqiqat birasad, ki zaboni aslii in kishvar zaboni porsist va bistari munosib baroi rushdi in zabon xatti porsist. Zamone ki xamai xamsojagoni mo dar holi ru ovardan ba xatte digar hastand, chi' chize moro poi'bandi xatti sirillik nigah medorad? Hatto agar bixohem manofe`i siyosiro dar nazar bigirem, sirillik budani xatti mo chi' sude baroi Rusiya dorad? Magar qaror ast oqoi Medvedi'ev bo istifoda az xatti sirillik zaboni porsii moro biomuzad? To kunun chand hamqavmi u porsi' omuxta, to dilamon ba hamin khayol xush boshad? Va oyo porsidonii u muhimtar ast yo porsidonii mo?

Hatto agar az didi ideuluzhik ba in kaziya bingarem: Mo, ki xudro az navodagoni sarbalandi Somoniyon medonem, boyad az xud bipursem, ki oyo Ismo`ili Somoni' ba in xori' tan medod, ki ba begonagon boje chunin gazof bidihadu az hamqavmoni xud ba dur boshad? Somoniyon dudmone bud, ki arabiro kanor guzosht va porsiro dubora bar kursi' nishond. Chi zamone mo somonivor sirillikro kanor xohem guzoshtu ba ogushi zabonu xatti xudi' boz xohem gasht?

Dar asri inkilobi interneti', ki baxshi azimi shabakai chahoniro matolibi porsi' faro giriftaast, charo mo porsiguyoni Osiyoi Miyona ba matolibe ba zaboni xudamon, ki ba xatti porsist, dastrasi' nadoshta boshem? Zabonu xatti porsi' imruza az jumlai umdatarin zabonhoi Internet ast va dastrasi' ba on matolib tanho ba sharte muyassar xohad shud, ki porsi' balad boshem. Tojikiston bo haft milyun jam`iyate, ki dorad, hargiz ba andozai jam`iyati haftodmilyunii Eron Internetro tasxir naxohad kard.

Barmegardem ba changalhoi anbuhi Brazil, ki dostoni mo az on cho ogoz girift. Pazhuxishho guyoi pai'vandi tangotangi andesha bo zabon ast. Agar zaboni mo vopasmonda ast, hargiz nametavon ba umedi shukufoi'ii farhangi', iqtisodi', ilmi', siyosi', ijtimo`i' va gai'ra bud. Chun zabon ast, ki ba in mafhumho shakl medihad va oyanda mesozad. Agar zaboni mo dar hamin holati vomonda bimonad, ba`id nest, ki ruzgore guruhe az donishpazhuhoni garbi' baroi omuzishi pai'vandi mihoni zabonu andesha dari moro ham bikuband.

Kambiz

Posted 23 July 2008 - 05:05 PM

Afrasiabe gerami,

Thanks a lot for transliterating the piece. Here is the link to its Cyrillic version:

http://www.asiaplus....es/96/2266.html

Afrasiab

Posted 24 July 2008 - 05:39 AM

[QUOTE=Kambiz;12087]Afrasiabe gerami,

Thanks a lot for transliterating the piece. Here is the link to its Cyrillic version:

http://www.asiaplus....es/96/2266.html[/QUOTE]

Oqoi Dariushi Rajabiyan in shumo hasted? :) Az matlabaton dar mavridi alifbo bisyor khusham omad. Tashakkur.
PS: Banda dar borai Shumo bisyor guftahoi khub shunidaam va ghoibona ehtirom doram. Sarbalandu burdbor boshed.

Kambiz

Posted 24 July 2008 - 08:38 AM

[quote=afrasiab;12123]oqoi dariushi rajabiyan in shumo hasted? :) az matlabaton dar mavridi alifbo bisyor khusham omad. Tashakkur.
Ps: Banda dar borai shumo bisyor guftahoi khub shunidaam va ghoibona ehtirom doram. Sarbalandu burdbor boshed.[/quote]

??? ??? ??? ??? ??? , ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ???. ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ?. ??? ? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ??? ?. ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ? ??? .

Kambiz

Posted 24 July 2008 - 09:55 AM

Chera Rahman moxalefe xatte pasrsist:

http://www.bbc.co.uk...guage_day.shtml

Sohrab

Posted 24 July 2008 - 11:18 AM

[QUOTE=Kambiz;12153]Chera Rahman moxalefe xatte pasrsist:

http://www.bbc.co.uk...guage_day.shtml[/QUOTE]

??? ? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?? 22 ??? ??? ?? ??? ? ?? ?? ??? ??? ??? ?? ?? " ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ( ??? ??)" ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? " ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ??" ??? ??.

It's people's cultural rights to talk and think about promotion of their language. A weak goverment always blame his opponents of spying for the forgenrs and Tafroqa Andazi, Mr. Rahamn is not exception here.

??? ??? ? ??? ? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ? ?? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??.

This is wrong i think. The level of Educatoin of people and litercy rate only depend on policies of a goverment, now what aplhabet they use.


?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? : "?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ? ? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ?? ?? ??? ??? ( ??? ? ??? ) ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ."

He is only talking about 70 years of Soviet time, but forgets to see for over a thousand years we have had perso-arabic. So in which era we had most of our books?

??? ? ??? ? ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? . ?? ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ?. ??? ? ?? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ??? ??? ??: "?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ? ??? ?? ??? ?? ? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? ?? ???


It is over a decade that Tajikistan have become an independat country. He hasnt started on it upto now, people will ask....... when are you going to start on it then?


?? ??? ? ?? ??? ? ?? ??? ? ? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ???.Yes, off course they need to have technology, but why is Farsi alphabet is going to be an obstacle?


?? ??? ??? ?? " ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ( ??? ??)" ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ?? ??? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? .

??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ??? " ??? ? ??? ??? ? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ??? ?? ( ??? ???) ??? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ???" ?? ??? ?. ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ?? ?? ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ? ? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ? ??? ? ??? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??.


Here you go, it is called hypocracy. I have listend to him a few times and he uses the russian words himself. He is also not fluent in his native language and i noticed he used words in wrong orders, for example i remember one of them, he said Mushkilat ha, instead of Mushkilat. If he cant correct himself and be condidant on his own language how can he persuade the others to do so? Also, talk is not needed from Mr. Rahman, as a president, what can he do to bring positive changes in language apart from Nasihat Hai Padarana?


??? ? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? : " ??? ? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ? ?? ? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ? ??? ? ??? . ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ??? ??? ."

Hope this is not the same broken Farsi Dari he uses himself!


?? ??? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ??? ?? ??? ?? " ??? ? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??" ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? .

??? ? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ??? ? ?? ??? ? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ? ?? ??? ?? " ??? ? ??? ??? ??? ??? ??" ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ??? .


This is sad, the russians use their own langauge on Tajik soil without bothering to learn Tajiki/Farsi.


??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ??? ??? ? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?. ??? ? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ??? ?? ?? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ??

This reminds me of the Somali people. That country is called Somalia in the south and in the North the breakaway part of it is called SomaliLand, when i asked a few SomaliLanders that why they have got an English mix in the name of their country. They said: once we are recognized by international community and the British, we will change it to pure Somali name. What a foolish idea, as if the British car if they have Land in the name of their country. The same thing goes to the goverment of Tajikistan.


??? ?? ??? ? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? " ??? ? ??? ???" ??? ? " ??? ??" ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ( ??? ???) ??? ??? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ?? ??? ??? ? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ??? ?? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ?? ??? ??? ??? ?? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ??? ??? ??? ?? ??? ? ??? ??? ? ??? ? ??? ??? .

Mr. Rahman calls the others Tafroqa Andaz, what does he call this?


I have alot of respect for him, but now he has disappointed me.

Kambiz

Posted 24 July 2008 - 11:36 AM

I'm sure you HAD, RK jan. Don't you think the verb must be in the past tense?

As I'd said before, he is not what he seems to be to many Persian-speakers abroad. On the one hand, he wants to build a Persian TV (to keep Iran happy), on the other hand, he's against the Persian script and the real name of our language (for the sake of Russia). He's a silly hypocrite who's hindering the process of the national awareness and progress in Tajikistan.

Sohrab

Posted 24 July 2008 - 11:41 AM

[QUOTE=Kambiz;12165]I'm sure you HAD, RK jan. Don't you think the verb must be in the past tense?

As I'd said before, he is not what he seems to be to many Persian-speakers abroad. On the one hand, he wants to build a Persian TV (to keep Iran happy), on the other hand, he's against the Persian script and the real name of our language (for the sake of Russia). He's a silly hypocrite who's hindering the process of the national awareness and progress in Tajikistan.[/QUOTE]

Well Kambize Gerami, not sure about it. But i definately dont see him in the same eyes as i used to. He also does not seem to be a clever politician.

Sohrab

Posted 24 July 2008 - 11:45 AM

I remember couple of years ago there was a news in BBC Persian site(I love this site the way they present persian for all farsi speakers) that a minister of the gov of Mr. Rahman was speaking to a high ranking official either from China or Japan, the Chineese or Japanees was speaking in Tajiki/persian the Tajik guy was speaking in Russian. That is called pure Shame.

Afrasiab

Posted 24 July 2008 - 02:09 PM

[QUOTE=Rika Khana;12166]Well Kambize Gerami, not sure about it. But i definately dont see him in the same eyes as i used to. He also does not seem to be a clever politician.[/QUOTE]

Tajikistan does not remember such worthless and vainglorious (narcissistic) lider, as Emomali Rahmon:)

PORS

Posted 24 July 2008 - 07:02 PM

Don't curse Rahman. :) Remember about your signature below.

Pors.

[QUOTE=Afrasiab;12182]Tajikistan does not remember such worthless and vainglorious (narcissistic) lider, as Emomali Rahmon:)[/QUOTE]

Nader Shah

Posted 25 July 2008 - 03:24 AM

:D :D:d[quote=pors;12204]don't curse rahman. :) remember about your signature below.

Pors.[/quote]

Nader Shah

Posted 25 July 2008 - 03:24 AM

:D :D :D
[quote=pors;12204]don't curse rahman. :) remember about your signature below.

Pors.[/quote]

Nader Shah

Posted 25 July 2008 - 03:25 AM

:( the smilies are not working :(

Nader Shah

Posted 25 July 2008 - 03:26 AM

at least the :D is not working from the smiley list, is this going to work typed by hand

Nader Shah

Posted 25 July 2008 - 03:38 AM

Why is Rahmon so keen on making Russia happy if Russia does not reciprocate ? His policies would make some sense if Russia had reciprocated. Every time there is a fight between Uzbekistan and Tajikistan, Russia sides with Uzbekistan so what is the point ?

Am I missing something ?

On another note, It may be unfortunate that Rahmon is not promoting Persian script, but if the majority in Tajikistan support Cyrillic - it seems so to me, and understandably so for short term reasons - then he is on the side of the people. But if he is doing it to please Russians it is the wrong reason. Is he doing it to please Russians ?

Can the Tajikistanis clarify this matter ?

Kambiz

Posted 27 July 2008 - 11:33 PM

It has nothing to do with public opinion NS jan. It is simply the outcome of the thoughts of a mankurt (I'm sure you are familiar with the term by now). As said before, prior to Rahman's infamous usurpation of power in the end of 1991 people were trying to learn the Persian script enthusiastically and leaving the Cyrillic behind was deemed to be inevitable.

Apart from that, Rahman is afraid of Russia indeed. He might think that Russia IS reciprocating by allowing hundreds of thousands Tajiks to work there. If Russia stops accepting Tajik labor migrants Rahman's government will collapse almost immediately. Therefore, he's ready to wax Putin/Medvedyev's shoes, only if they would allow Tajiks to fill Russia's labor market, get killed by fascists and sent back home in iron chests.

He's never been on the side of the people thus far. No instance could be mentioned to support that claim.

[QUOTE=Nader Shah;12242]Why is Rahmon so keen on making Russia happy if Russia does not reciprocate ? His policies would make some sense if Russia had reciprocated. Every time there is a fight between Uzbekistan and Tajikistan, Russia sides with Uzbekistan so what is the point ?

Am I missing something ?

On another note, It may be unfortunate that Rahmon is not promoting Persian script, but if the majority in Tajikistan support Cyrillic - it seems so to me, and understandably so for short term reasons - then he is on the side of the people. But if he is doing it to please Russians it is the wrong reason. Is he doing it to please Russians ?

Can the Tajikistanis clarify this matter ?[/QUOTE]

Nader Shah

Posted 28 July 2008 - 03:48 AM

That is a good point, Russia is reciprocating by allowing large numbers of Tajik laborers in. Then what can Rahmon do ? What would you tell him if he appointed you as his top adviser ? I would really like to hear your viewpoint. Thanks in advance :)
[QUOTE=Kambiz;12400]Apart from that, Rahman is afraid of Russia indeed. He might think that Russia IS reciprocating by allowing hundreds of thousands Tajiks to work there. If Russia stops accepting Tajik labor migrants Rahman's government will collapse almost immediately. Therefore, he's ready to wax Putin/Medvedyev's shoes, only if they would allow Tajiks to fill Russia's labor market, get killed by fascists and sent back home in iron chests. [/QUOTE]

Sohrab

Posted 28 July 2008 - 06:15 AM

[QUOTE=Kambiz;12400]
Apart from that, Rahman is afraid of Russia indeed. He might think that Russia IS reciprocating by allowing hundreds of thousands Tajiks to work there. If Russia stops accepting Tajik labor migrants Rahman's government will collapse almost immediately. Therefore, he's ready to wax Putin/Medvedyev's shoes, only if they would allow Tajiks to fill Russia's labor market, get killed by fascists and sent back home in iron chests.

He's never been on the side of the people thus far. No instance could be mentioned to support that claim.[/QUOTE]

Dear Kambiz,

Is it a real fear or just Rahman's imaginations? Do you think Russia will really care if the change cyrillic to persian?

Kambiz

Posted 28 July 2008 - 11:18 AM

Dear NS and RK,

I'm sure Rahman's worries have nothing to do with realities. Reading and writing in Cyrillic don't make you understand the Russian language at all. So, it's ridiculous to assume that Russia would retaliate if Tajikistan chooses to leave its script. Furthermore, almost all other countries in the region have ditched Cyrillic and got back to Latin. But there are still more Azeri workers in Russia than Tajiks. And Uzbekistan with its newly-minted Latin script is sending hundreds of thousands laborers to Russia annually too.

Therefore, presumably, I think it's just about Rahman's phobia with no touch of reality.

Another reason: Rahman doesn't read or write the Persian script himself and obviously, he doesn't want to be an illiterate president.

I would suggest to have a long period (20-30 years) of double-script usage before the full return to Persian. That would make the process smoother and the loss for Russia less painful.

Sohrab

Posted 28 July 2008 - 11:21 AM

[QUOTE=Kambiz;12431]Dear NS and RK,

I'm sure Rahman's worries have nothing to do with realities. Reading and writing in Cyrillic don't make you understand the Russian language at all. So, it's ridiculous to assume that Russia would retaliate if Tajikistan chooses to leave its script. Furthermore, almost all other countries in the region have ditched Cyrillic and got back to Latin. But there are still more Azeri workers in Russia than Tajiks. And Uzbekistan with its newly-minted Latin script is sending hundreds of thousands laborers to Russia annually too.

Therefore, presumably, I think it's just about Rahman's phobia with no touch of realities.

Another reason: Rahman doesn't read or write the Persian script himself and obviously, he doesn't want to be an illiterate president.

I would suggest to have a long period (20-30 years) of double-script usage before the full return to Persian. That would make the process smoother and the loss for Russia less painful.[/QUOTE]

That is true. When he changed his name from Rahmanov to Rahman, Russia did not mind, then why they mind if he changes the alphabet?

shabir

Posted 19 October 2009 - 10:15 AM

no need for any change. our language is beautful as it is. as well as in writing as in spoken

tojikiston

Posted 10 February 2010 - 03:07 AM

Salom ba barodaru xoharone ghiromi!
First of all: why change something which was and is fine for centuries!?!?!?!?!
We added letters which arabs simply can't even pronounce to arabic and made it ours!!!
Plus we are that close to the Holy Qur'an's language and alphabet!!!
In other words: Why fix it, if it's NOT broken!!!

So, let's talk about more important topics, like:
"what's the situation in great land called Afghoniston?"
or
"What we, ordinary tojiks and forsizabonan's can do to change the situations?"
or
"How are muhojeers holding up in gharibi?"
and such!!!


PS: sorry, if I'm too blunt,

PORS

Posted 10 February 2010 - 07:20 AM

Tojikiston,

First, welcome to Tajikam.Com! Secondly, with your monkeys and donkeys you don't go too far. Please think before you write something (Nakhust andesha, pas guftor). Thirdly, our members are from various ages and backgrounds, and to be respectful and understanding will help you in the long run. You are free to express your opinion, however, system will ban users who curse or insult.

Also keep in mind that not all Tajiks are Muslims. There are lots of Zoroastrian Tajiks, Tajik Bhuddists, Christian Tajiks, Tajik Jews, Tajik atheists, Tajik Mormons, and many more. The preserving elements of all these Tajiks/Persians, are culture and language.

You are welcome to create any topic on any of these topics you would like to discuss. By the way, have you checked previous comments on this topic/thread? Any agreements/disagreements?

Best,


- Pors

View Posttojikiston, on 09 February 2010 - 10:07 PM, said:

Salom ba barodaru xoharone ghiromi!
First of all: why change something which was and is fine for centuries!?!?!?!?!
We added letters which arabs simply can't even pronounce to arabic and made it ours!!!
Plus we are that close to the Holy Qur'an's language and alphabet!!!
In other words: Why fix it, if it's NOT broken!!!

So, let's talk about more important topics, like:
"what's the situation in great land called Afghoniston?"
or
"WTF wrong with Tojikiston's ruling monkeys?"
or
"What we, ordinary tojiks and forsizabonan's can do to change the situations?"
or
"Does everyone understand the great dangers to us because: 1st we are Muslimin, 2nd we are Farsizabonem, 3rd most of the time monkeys and donkeys rule us!!!"
or
"How are muhojeers holding up in gharibi?"
and such!!!


PS: sorry, if I'm too blunt,

nathan

Posted 27 May 2010 - 02:12 PM

Well, I can't tell you what alphabet is better but I can certainly tell you that is been over 3 weeks that I have been trying to find one Tajiki person to help me in 15 questions that I have to answer in tajiki, and I am still having a hard time finding a person or a source. Now if the alphabet was Arabic (Persian) alphabet then that wouldn't be any issue. Just being part of that alphabet will open the world of sources and capabilities for the Tajiki language. English and current letters do not have any helping recourses for the Tajiki language and by the time it is going to develop some, you are going to lose many part of your beautiful culture in that language. I speak fluent Farsi, Dari, but oh my god it was hard to learn Tajiki, just because there is nowhere, not even chat rooms to go to get some help! On the other hand, that language has engraved its rood into that alphabet. It is as if I say you lose your personality and try to act as someone else! The two goes together. So many years and so many tears, makes that deep feeling and taste and accent to enrich that language using the Persian alphabet. When you look at Turkey, their art side of their culture has been vanished. Just the fact moving to English letter has brought a huge ignorance to that side of their culture. It is like child who has no home, not here and not there…
I am still looking for a Tajiki source to find out if I made a mistake in 15 question that I have to answer, just because you alphabet is different…

Sohrab

Posted 27 May 2010 - 02:52 PM

View Postnathan, on 27 May 2010 - 03:12 PM, said:

Well, I can't tell you what alphabet is better but I can certainly tell you that is been over 3 weeks that I have been trying to find one Tajiki person to help me in 15 questions that I have to answer in tajiki, and I am still having a hard time finding a person or a source. Now if the alphabet was Arabic (Persian) alphabet then that wouldn't be any issue. Just being part of that alphabet will open the world of sources and capabilities for the Tajiki language. English and current letters do not have any helping recourses for the Tajiki language and by the time it is going to develop some, you are going to lose many part of your beautiful culture in that language. I speak fluent Farsi, Dari, but oh my god it was hard to learn Tajiki, just because there is nowhere, not even chat rooms to go to get some help! On the other hand, that language has engraved its rood into that alphabet. It is as if I say you lose your personality and try to act as someone else! The two goes together. So many years and so many tears, makes that deep feeling and taste and accent to enrich that language using the Persian alphabet. When you look at Turkey, their art side of their culture has been vanished. Just the fact moving to English letter has brought a huge ignorance to that side of their culture. It is like child who has no home, not here and not there…
I am still looking for a Tajiki source to find out if I made a mistake in 15 question that I have to answer, just because you alphabet is different…


Dear Nathan, first of all wellcome to the forum and please make sure to come here regularly and make your valuable contribution. Secondly, everyting you said above is correct. I personally wanted to be in touch with the Tajiks of Tajikistan, Samarqand and Bukhara before(and even now), but trust me i didnt know how to establish a contact with them? first of all they are not that active on the internet and even if they are on the internt, they either use Russian language, or speak persian using Cyrilic alphabets, that makes life very difficult for all of us. I have always wanted to listen to music of tajikistan, but they all use cyrilic and i dont know what the site is talkig about. at least in this site we have had many members from Tajikistan, but sadly most of them dont come here anymore. If you wanted information about tajikistan, one of the admins here is from tajikistan, his name is Pors. Try to contact him and you will find him a unique and special person. The last thing i wanted to mention is that there is no difference between Tajiki, Dari and Farsi, they are all the same language.

Sohrab

Posted 27 May 2010 - 02:54 PM

@Nathan: Here is one of the good sites that can give you alot of information about the Tajiks of central asia.

http://www.bbc.co.uk...stan_page.shtml

nathan

Posted 27 May 2010 - 10:40 PM

Sohrab
Thank you for your response. You are absolutely right. I do speak fluent Farsi and Dari, both in writing and reading. And I also do read and write in Tajiki. But learning Farsi (Iranian) you have a lot of people all over that welcome you to do so and you can learn how it feels to be in the middle of main bazaar in Iran to understand what Mesgarkhane means! To understand what it means when someone says Elahi Pir Beshavi and so on… but I can not find one Tajiki person to understand all that to get the inside information. If they don’t take a pride in showing the world, who they are, how they are and how powerful their culture is, then how could a person like me who desperately digs into, to learn and expose them could help? I am saying all these, hoping that someday some Tajiki people see these notes and encourage more people to come to such sites, even if it is only for a few minutes one day a week.

PORS

Posted 29 May 2010 - 07:43 AM

What are those 15 questions?


- Pors

nathan

Posted 29 May 2010 - 10:34 AM

Pors,
I have marked the answers by putting an X in front of them, I would really appreciate it if you let me know how far off I am. This means a lot to me and I thank you for helping me with this. I hope that I can return the favor.


Кишварҳои Туркманистон ва Қазоқистон дар якҷоягӣ захираҳои бузурги газ ва нафтиро дар ҷаҳон доранд. Аммо аз сабаби баъзе баҳсҳои ҳалношуда оид ба сарҳадҳои қонунии Баҳри Каспий ва як қатор низоъҳои минтақавӣ пешниҳодот оид ба баровардани захираҳои дар боло зикргардида ба бозори кишварҳои Ғарб дар канор монда истодаанд. Дар байни инҳо лоиҳаи ИМА ва Туркия «қубури газ тавассути Баҳри Каспий» буд, ки он оид ба интиқоли бевоситаи нафти Туркманистон ва қазоқистонро ба бозори давлатҳои ғарб тавассути қубури зериобӣ берун аз ҳудуди Русия буд. Ба ҳар ҳол, камбудиҳое, ки Русия дар таъминоти Аврупо бо газ ба онҳо роҳ дод, ҳавасмандиро ба лоиҳа аз нав бедор кард. Гарчанде аз сабаби арзиши сохтмон (тақрибан 2,5-3 млрд. дол. ИМА) қубури мазкур аз ҷиҳати иқтисодӣ зараровар аст, тарафдорони лоиҳаи мазкур тарафҳои мусбии онро номбар карда изҳор намуданд, ки ин ба гуногун кардани сарчашмаи таъминот ва назорати нарх мусоидат менамояд. Илова бар ин, он ба Туркманистон ва Қазоқистон имконият медиҳад, ки аз ҳисоби захираҳои бои худ аз бозори газ нафъ баранд. Давлатҳое, ки ҳоло гази Туркманистонро содир карда истодаанд, хусусан Русия ва Эрон, қатъиян зидди лоиҳа мебошанд ва изҳори ақида доранд, ки ин ба иқтисодиёти минтақа таъсири манфӣ хоҳад расонд.
1.
Чӣ водор сохт, ки ба лоиҳаи «Қубури газ тавассути Баҳри Каспий» аз нав эътибор дода шуд?
Зарурият ба гуногун намудани сарчашмаи таъминоти маҳсулоти нафтӣ
X Камбудиҳо дар таъминоти газ аз ҷониби Русия - CORRECT
Низоъҳои минтақавӣ оид ба Баҳри Каспий
Қарордодҳо оид ба сарҳадҳои Баҳри Каспий

2.
Барои чӣ ИМА ва Туркия лоиҳаи «Қубури газ тавассути Баҳри Каспий»-ро пешниҳод карданд?
X Барои фоида гирифтан аз захираҳои нафтии Туркманистон ва Қазоқистон - CORRECT, however, the last answer can be true, too.
Барои пурзӯр намудани назорат аз рӯи нархи нафт дар Аврупои шарқӣ
Барои мустаҳкам намудани робитаҳои хеш бо таъминотчиёни асосии гази табиӣ
Барои интиқоли бевоситаи нафт ба бозори давлатҳои Ғарб

3.
Агар лоиҳа қадул гардад, қубури газ тавассути Баҳри Каспий дар куҷо сохта хоҳад шуд?
X Дар зери об - CORRECT
Дар атрофи Русия
Аз Туркманистон ба Қазоқистон
Дар атрофи сарҳади Баҳри Каспий

4.
Дар порча чӣ ҳамчун проблемаи эҳтимолӣ барои лоиҳаи «Қубури газ тавассути Баҳри Каспий» қайд гардидааст?
X Арзиши сохтмони Қубур - CORRECT
Ба Туркманистон ва қазоқистон барои ба бозор баровардани захираҳои гази табии хеш имконият додан
Вусъати тавоноии танзими нархи нафт ва гази табиӣ
Норасоии газ дар дигар қисмҳои ҷаҳон

5.
Барои чӣ Русия ва Эрон зидди лоиҳаи «Қубури газ тавассути Баҳри Каспий» ҳастанд?
Онҳо бо Туркманистон низои сиёсӣ доранд.
X Дар натиҷаи лоиҳа минтақаи онҳо маблағро аз даст медиҳад. - CORRECT
Лоиҳа ба муҳити атроф дар минтақа таъсири манфӣ мерасонад.
Онҳо намехоҳанд нафти Туркманистон ва Қазоқистонро истифода баранд.

Reading Comprehension #2
Зарфи маводи мухаддир таҷҳизот, маҳсулот ва ё маводи қонуниест, ки барои истифодабарандагони маводи мухаддар баҳри кӯмак ба онҳо дар истифода бурдан ё пинҳон кардани маводи мухаддари ғайриқонунӣ ё барои кӯмак ба қочоқчиёни маводи мухаддар барои тайёр ва паҳн кардани маводи мухаддари ғайриқонунӣ сохта шудааст. То солҳои 1980, то даме, ки қонунҳои зидди зарфи маводи мухаддар ба ин гуна амалийёт хотима бахшид, бисёр зарфҳои маводи мухаддар дар кӯчаҳо ба таври кушод фурӯхта мешуд. Аммо ҳоло кормандони сохтори ҳифзи ҳуқуқ бо мушкилии дигар рӯ ба рӯ омадаанд. Пеш аз ҳама, интернет барои фурӯшандагони зарф бозори васее барои фурӯши маҳсулоти онҳо фароҳам овард. Аз рӯи гуфтаҳои Вазири адлия ҷон Ашкрофт : «Бо пайдошавии интернет фурӯши зарфи маводи мухаддари ғайриқонунӣ ниҳоят рушд ёфт. ҳоло он дар ҳар як хонадор тавассути компютер ва дастрасӣ ба интернет муҳайёст.» Аммо ба наздикӣ Шӯъбаи мубориза зидди маводи мухаддар тавассути як амалиёти хеш 18 ширкатеро, ки ҳар сол зиёда аз чоряк миллиард зарфи маводи мухаддарро ба таври чакана мефурӯшад, муайян намуд ва онҳоро нобуд сохт. «Шахсоне, ки зарфи маводи мухаддар мефурӯшанд, умуман аз паҳнкунандагони маводи мухаддар фарқияте надоранд.» «Чи хеле, ки шахсони ба ягон ҷиноят ҳамроҳбуда дигар аъзои гурӯҳро ба набаровардани сир маҷбур месозанд, онҳо ҳам як узви гурӯҳи қочоқчиёни маводи мухаддир мебошанд», -мегӯяд Иҷрокунандаи вазифаи Сардори Шӯъбаи мубориза зидди маводи мухаддир Ҷон Браун.
6.
Кадоме аз зерин зарфи маводи мухаддир ҳисоб намёбад?
Найча (чиллим) барои дуд кардани банг
Қуттичаи лабсурхкунаке, ки барои гузаронидани кокаин холи карда шудааст
Найча барои кашидани тамоку
X Сӯзандоруи тиббӣ барои истифодаи героин тавассути он - CORRECT

7.
Мувофиқи порча барои чӣ пайдошавии интернет барои фурӯшандагони зарфи маводи мухаддир чунин як воситаи муфид буд?
Он ба онҳо имкон дод, ки зарфи маводи мухаддирро ба ҳар як шахсе, ки компютер дорад, фурӯшанд. - I would pick this answer. Yours might be true too.
Фурӯшандагони чакана акнун метавонанд зарфи маводи мухаддирро тавассути саҳифаҳои интернетии номаълум фурӯшанд.
Он ба фурӯшандагони чакана заминаи ҳуқуқие барои фурӯши зарфи маводи мухаддир фароҳам овард.
X Он суръати амалиётхоеро, ки ба таври дигар суст амалӣ мегаштанд, вусъат дод.

8.
Гурӯҳи Оперейшнз Пайп Дримз киҳоро тафтиш карда буд?
Истифодабарандагони маводи мухаддири ғайриқонунӣ
Харидорони зарфи маводи мухаддир
Паҳнкунандагони маводи мухаддир
X Фурӯшандагони чаканаи зарфи маводи мухаддир - CORRECT

9.
Маънои асосии порчаро кадом изҳорот хубтар ифода мекунад?
Фурӯшандагони чаканаи зарфи маводи мухаддир бештар дар амалиётҳои ҷиноятӣ даст доранд.
Кормандони ҳифзи ҳуқуқ дар нест кардани фурӯши зарфи маводи мухаддир ба мушкилиҳо дучор шуданд, аммо баъзе тактикаҳои нав самара доданд.
X Шӯъбаи мубориза зидди маводи мухаддир дар кам кардани шумораи фурӯшандагони чаканаи зарфи маводи мухаддире, ки тавассути интернет фаъолият мебаранд, нақши калон бозиданд. - CORRECT
Тиҷорат бо зарфи маводи мухаддир дар давоми чанд даҳсолаи охир ниҳоят фоидаовар шуда истодааст.

10.
Ҷон Браун тавассути изҳороти хеш : «Чи хеле, ки қотил аъзои гурӯҳро ба набаровардани сир маҷбур месозанд, онҳо ҳам як узви гурӯҳи қочоқчиёни маводи мухаддир мебошанд» чӣ гуфтан мехоҳад?
Ҳам қочоқи маводи мухаддир ва ҳам қотилӣ ҷинояти вазнин мебошад.
Зарфи маводи мухаддир ҳам мисли худи маводи мухаддир хатарнок аст.
X Фурӯшандагони зарфи маводи мухаддир умуман дар қочоқи маводи мухаддир ҳам масъулияти якхела доранд. - CORRECT
Фурӯшандагони зарфи маводи мухаддир бояд ба мӯҳлати дароз маҳкум карда шаванд.

Reading Comprehension #3
Сарвазири Британияи Кабир Тони Блэр қарорро оид ба пурзӯр кардани назорат аз рӯи муҳоҷирати ғайриқонунӣ пазируфт ва боварӣ кунонид, ки шахсоне, ки ба таври қонунӣ паноҳгоҳи сиёсӣ меҷӯянд, аз ҳудуди Иттиҳоди Аврупо «ронда нахоҳанд шуд». Масъалаи муҳоҷирати ғайриқонунӣ пас аз масъалаи муваффақият дар маракаҳои зидди муҳоҷират ҳангоми интихоботи ба наздикӣ шудагузашта яке аз масъалаҳои асосии сиёсӣ дар Саммити Иттиҳоди Аврупо, ки рӯзҳои ҷумъа ва шанбе дар шаҳри Севил баргузор шуд, буд. Кишварҳои узви ИА, ки шумораи зиёди муҳоҷиронеро, ки паноҳгоҳи сиёсӣ мепурсанд ва дар ҷустуҷӯи шароити беҳтари иқтисодӣ ҳастанд, натавонистанд як сиёсати ягона оид ба муҳоҷиратро қабул намоянд ва ё ба мувофиқа оянд, ки ин давлатҳо то чи андоза сарҳади хешро назорат кунанд. Британия яке аз давлатҳои тарафдори ҷаримаи калон, ба мисли санксия дар соҳаи савдо ва кӯмак нисбати давлатҳое, ки селаи муҳоҷиронро назорат намекунанд, чун Испания, ки чанде пеш тақрибан 700 000 нафарони ҷӯяндаи паноҳгоҳро ҳуқуқӣ гардонид, буд. Кишварҳои зидди ин ақида изҳор намуданд, ки ин пешниҳод ниҳоят шадид аст ва қайд намуданд, ки ин чора ягон хел самара намеорад, баръакс ба он оварда мерасонад, ки давлатҳое, ки бе ҳамин ҳам қашшоқ ҳастанд, боз қашшоқтар мешаванд ва шумораи одамоне, ки мехоҳанд кишвари худро тарк кунанд, зиёд мегардад. Ба ҷои он қароре қабул шуд, ки ҳамкории байни кишварҳоро дастгирӣ мекунад. Сарвазир қайд намуд, ки чораҳои нав пеш аз ҳама ба шахсоне, ки бо қочоқи одам машғуланд ва ба кишварҳои аъзо ҳамарӯза муҳоҷиронро меоранд, нигаронида шудааст, аммо боз чораҳоеро оид ба назорати сарҳад дар бар мегирад, ки барои мақсадҳои нисбатан васеъ истифода хоҳад шуд. Мақсади ИА на мубаддал гаштан ба «Қалъаи Аврупо», чи тавре, ки мунаққидон чунин номгузорӣ карданд, на берун кардани қурбониёни зулму ситам аст.
11.
Мувофиқи порчаи матн кадом масъала барои Иттиҳоди Аврупо масъалаи ҷиддӣ гашт?
Шароити иқтисодии ИА
Робитаи байни Испания ва дигар кишварҳои узви ИА
X Назорати муҳоҷират - CORRECT
Чораҳои пешина оид ба додани паноҳгоҳ ба гурӯҳи калони одамон

12.
Дар порчаи матн ибораи «Қалъаи Аврупо» чи маъно дорад?
ИА ният дорад, ки ба муҳоҷирон паноҳгоҳи сиёсӣ диҳад
ИА нисбати кишварҳое, ки нисбати селаи муҳоҷирон чораҳои маҳдудкунанда намебинад, санксияҳои шадид ҷорӣ карда истодааст
X ИА бо мақсади роҳ надодан ба муҳоҷирон ба ҳудуди худ блокадаи сиёсӣ ба вуҷуд оварда истодааст - CORRECT
ИА сохтори ҳарбӣ ташкил карда истодааст

13.
Барои чи чанде пеш Испания ба 700 000 нафар одамон ба таври умумӣ паноҳгоҳ дод?
Ин сийсати ИА оид ба қабул намудани ҳамаи шахсонест, ки паноҳгоҳ меҷдӯянд
Испания хост пеш аз қабул шудани сиёсат ҳар чи бисёртар паноҳгоҳ диҳад
Испания хост аз ҷиҳати кӯмак ва савдо дастгирӣ ебад
X Дар порча чунин гуфта нағудааст - CORRECT

14.
Яке аз натиҷаҳои муҳокимаҳои Саммити ИА дар шаҳри Севил чи буд?
Стратегияи сарҳад таҳия карда шуд
Пешниҳод оид ба санксияҳои шадид тасдиқ гардид
X Қарор оид ба дастгирии кишварҳое, ки бо Барномаҳо оид ба муҳоҷират ҳамкорӣ доранд, қабул карда шуд - CORRECT
Маракаҳои зидди муҳоҷират таҳия карда шуданд

15.
Мақсади аввалиндараҷа аз қарори дар Саммити ИА дар шаҳри Севил қабулгашта чи буд?
X Ҳимояи қурбониёни зулму ситам - CORRECT
bТанзими муҳоҷирати ғайриқонунӣ
Назорати қочоқи одам
Баровардани санксияҳои шадид нисбати давлатҳое, ки дар ин масъала ҳамкорӣ намекунанд

PORS

Posted 30 May 2010 - 07:36 AM

I have to say, you did a great job, Nathan.

Best,


- Pors

Arash Tehrani

Posted 13 January 2011 - 07:36 PM

I think we should keep the Perso-Arabic alphabet for two reasons: to keep us connected to our 1400 years of literary heritage using the Perso-Arabic alphabet, and to preserve our ability to appreciate our calligraphic tradition. Half of the aesthetic value of calligraphy is in understanding what is written and appreciating how the artist formed the letters of the words in those specific unique ways. If the ability to read it is taken away, you will only appreciate the shape, like watching a pattern on a carpet or tile. But when you can read it, it is given an added dimension of beauty, and you can understand and appreciate the creativity in how the artist shaped the individual letters in the word. The fact that Persians created the Nasta'liq and Broken Nasta'liq calligraphic fonts is also something to take pride in.

If it were not for the fact that changing our alphabet would keep us out of touch with our history, I would have preferred to use the Latin alphabet as it is actually a superior system to the abjad-based Arabic one, and is also easier and faster to handwrite. Avestan would also have been better because it has vowels.

I am not in favor of simplifying the alphabet or spelling of words either as that would have the same effect on old sources as changing it entirely would. We would have to learn the additional letters anyway in order to be able to read old texts. Plus, keeping the weird spellings makes it easier to spot Arabic loanwords and avoid them, because native Persian words are usually written in the simplest possible way already. That will be useful for the future when we want to eliminate loanwords.

I don't have a problem with having loanwords for scientific terms or advanced words. European languages also have a lot of Latin words for complex and abstract meanings, such as relation, situation and basically all words ending with -ion, or for scientific terms, such as 'lunar' and 'orbit'. But it saddens me that even for simple common words, we use Arabic substitutes. For example, you'll be shocked to know that even the words به and از are of Arabic origin. It makes me angry that we don't even have a Persian word for 'human'. We use the Arabic ensan/insan or the name of Adam. Common usage words for simple concepts like a straight line: khatt, an Arabic word. This is truly sad. I hope there are still remaining pre-Islamic sources from which to draw the old words for these things.

Nader Shah

Posted 14 January 2011 - 12:19 AM

Your arguments are very cogent. They are the exact same arguments given by my father. Thanks for an excellent first post.

View PostArash Tehrani, on 13 January 2011 - 07:36 PM, said:

I think we should keep the Perso-Arabic alphabet for two reasons: to keep us connected to our 1400 years of literary heritage using the Perso-Arabic alphabet, and to preserve our ability to appreciate our calligraphic tradition. Half of the aesthetic value of calligraphy is in understanding what is written and appreciating how the artist formed the letters of the words in those specific unique ways. If the ability to read it is taken away, you will only appreciate the shape, like watching a pattern on a carpet or tile. But when you can read it, it is given an added dimension of beauty, and you can understand and appreciate the creativity in how the artist shaped the individual letters in the word. The fact that Persians created the Nasta'liq and Broken Nasta'liq calligraphic fonts is also something to take pride in.

If it were not for the fact that changing our alphabet would keep us out of touch with our history, I would have preferred to use the Latin alphabet as it is actually a superior system to the abjad-based Arabic one, and is also easier and faster to handwrite. Avestan would also have been better because it has vowels.

I am not in favor of simplifying the alphabet or spelling of words either as that would have the same effect on old sources as changing it entirely would. We would have to learn the additional letters anyway in order to be able to read old texts. Plus, keeping the weird spellings makes it easier to spot Arabic loanwords and avoid them, because native Persian words are usually written in the simplest possible way already. That will be useful for the future when we want to eliminate loanwords.

I don't have a problem with having loanwords for scientific terms or advanced words. European languages also have a lot of Latin words for complex and abstract meanings, such as relation, situation and basically all words ending with -ion, or for scientific terms, such as 'lunar' and 'orbit'. But it saddens me that even for simple common words, we use Arabic substitutes. For example, you'll be shocked to know that even the words به and از are of Arabic origin. It makes me angry that we don't even have a Persian word for 'human'. We use the Arabic ensan/insan or the name of Adam. Common usage words for simple concepts like a straight line: khatt, an Arabic word. This is truly sad. I hope there are still remaining pre-Islamic sources from which to draw the old words for these things.

Parsistani

Posted 14 January 2011 - 08:03 PM

Great words, Arash Jan. Thank you very much. But we should try to replace Arabic words through real Iranian words, where ever we can do it. Ferdowsi did it when he used Sogdian and Bactrian words...and we will do it, too.

Arash Tehrani

Posted 15 January 2011 - 12:16 PM

Thank you both for your compliments.

Parsistani

Posted 15 January 2011 - 12:24 PM

View PostArash Tehrani, on 15 January 2011 - 12:16 PM, said:

Thank you both for your compliments.


Your welcome, my brother. Feel like at home here.

arshak

Posted 16 January 2011 - 05:38 AM

Latin script is much more suitable when it comes to technology usage.

*Better for word processing(much faster than Perso-Arabic)
*Better for printing(Newspapers, books, etc) specially for indexing.
*Database projects
*Search engines

Sohrab

Posted 16 January 2011 - 10:55 PM

alphabet change wont do any good for us, it will rather create alot more confusion and division for us, stick with perso arabic.