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this ruling class was inhabited in the areas, like Balkh,fargana,alai,Tajikistan,badakhshan,Kabul,Takhar,Tashkorogan,Khutan,kashkar,Swat,Kashmir,Peshawar, hashtnager,Dir, Bajour,Gilgit,for serveral thaousand years.
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Why only Persian? Rate Topic: -----

#41 User is offline   bactria. Icon

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Posted 10 July 2008 - 03:18 PM

Hi everyone, first time poster here :D

[QUOTE=Rika Khana;11201]Dear Dushanbe,

We did not choose this, but it was forced on us. We had our langugage as Farsi in the past and they malliciously changed it to Dari to cause division between us and iranians. And so far it has worked well against us.[/QUOTE]

This is true, sadly. here is the document that stated and asked for the change:
http://www.icdc.com/...rd23may1964.htm
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#42 User is offline   PORS Icon

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Posted 10 July 2008 - 03:28 PM

Dorood bar hama:

Har keh nayamokht az gozashti rouzgar,
Niz nayomozad zi hej amozgar.
Roudaki

I think it's significant for us, as a CA Persians (Tajiks), to learn from our past and not repeat mistakes and blunders of our past again. I am sure, we all know how/when/where and these terms were created, but we also have to know that these terms were designed to divide us further. In this regard, "amokhtan az gozashti rouzgar" is very important and to take corrective actions "is more important". United, we are strong and we can achieve and help each other more and efficiently, rather than being separated from each other.


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#43 User is offline   Kambiz Icon

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Posted 10 July 2008 - 04:28 PM

Dear Dushanbe,

I know their meanings perfectly. But I wanted you to tell us what makes you think that Tajik is different from Persian. They are just interchangable words. Do you know what constitutes a nation (in its apolitical notion)? Don't you think we share all the attributes with other Persians?

But I didn't get the purpose of your funny question about my approach towards Turkic and Mongol tribes. What did you mean by that dude? I had never said anything about them to you. I said the term 'Tajik' is given by them.

As for our de facto status, we are Persian as known in the West. Everybody who's been to CA at least ones knows that, say, Uzbeks are Turkic and Tajiks are Iranian, and not only Iranian but Iranic Persian. I hope you do not suffer from complex of inferiority. Otherwise why do you have to think that we have borrowed our language from somebody else. This is my language and its name is nothing but Persian.

And one more thing, in your next post mind your attitude. Resorting to rude exp​ressions is a sign of weakness. Be straightforward but never rude please.

[QUOTE=Dushanbe;11200]Dear Darius,

If you want to know the meanings of Tajik and Persian, you should apply to the dictionaries.
I agree that we speak a variety of Persian which is called Tajiki in Tajikistan and Dari in Afghanistan, and we of Iranian group of peoples the same way as Nuristani, Pamiri and other peoples.

One thing that I do not understand is your approach towards Turkic-Mongolic languages... :confused:
Could you explain me please what is wrong in those languages?

Nothing makes us de facto Persian: it is all your perceptions. We are Tajiks:D[/QUOTE]
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#44 User is offline   Kambiz Icon

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Posted 10 July 2008 - 04:32 PM

Forgot to tell you what I think about your hasty remark on our language: it has not been called Tajiki or Dari by us - Persians. Tajiki is a Turkic/Mongol term borrowed by Russians and imposed on us due to their geopolitical/national/international goals in 1929. Dari is an attribute or adjective for our language Persian - Parsiye Dari. It has been imposed as the official name of Persian on our brethren in Afghanistan by Pashtuns for the same purposes in 1964. So what makes you accept this division if you are Tajik indeed?

[QUOTE=Dushanbe;11200]Dear Darius,

If you want to know the meanings of Tajik and Persian, you should apply to the dictionaries.
I agree that we speak a variety of Persian which is called Tajiki in Tajikistan and Dari in Afghanistan, and we of Iranian group of peoples the same way as Nuristani, Pamiri and other peoples.

One thing that I do not understand is your approach towards Turkic-Mongolic languages... :confused:
Could you explain me please what is wrong in those languages?

Nothing makes us de facto Persian: it is all your perceptions. We are Tajiks:D[/QUOTE]
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#45 User is offline   Nader Shah Icon

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Posted 11 July 2008 - 06:13 AM

My dear Afrasiab,

I wish you were right ;) But I heard - from Dushanbe and confirmed by PORS - that most Tajiks don't give a damn about iran, and i heard that most Iranians dont give a damn about Tajiks ... Sorry to put it so bluntly, but is it not true.

If 99% Tajiks of Tajikistan sympathize with Iran, then shame on Iranians for being so unaware. I would be proud of Tajikistan ... and I would feel ashamed of Iran.

But either way is fine, I will love Tajikistan even if most people there hate Iran :D
[QUOTE=Afrasiab;11144]Tajiks more wish to be closer to Iran and Iranians, than Iranian (IRI) to Tajiks more. In Tajikistan, I think, 99% of Tajiks sympathize with Iran.[/QUOTE]
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#46 User is offline   Nader Shah Icon

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Posted 11 July 2008 - 06:17 AM

Where did you get this, that history books in Iran do not recognize Tajiks as our own? I studied some Persian literature (in school) while in Iran, and I always got the impression that much of our post-Islamic culture's development was due to the efforts of our dear Persians in Central Asia.

Please, don' t take the opinions of a few uneducated, ignorant, unaware and arrogant people as the truth, or as the opinion of intellectuals and historians. There are lots of stupid Iranians - I meet them every day - and it does not mean that our educated and aware people who know their history are stupid too ...

[QUOTE=Dushanbe;11146]
The problem is that Iran was called Fors for long and the majority of Irans population are called and recognized as Persians. Officially Iran considers many parts of Afghanistan and Central Asia as its former provinces and colonies buy it does not recognize the peoples of these territories as Persians and belonging to them. By officially I mean that we are not included in their history books as Persians and are not recognized as such. We are considered only Persian speakers and those who were influenced by Iranian culture and language.[/QUOTE]
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#47 User is offline   Nader Shah Icon

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Posted 11 July 2008 - 06:29 AM

Dear Dushanbe,

All our education in literature in Iran (I only took Persian literature class while studying in French while in Tehran, but this was the textbook everyone in Iran studies) is full of references to Central Asia, including Samarqand & Bukhara, but also Herat, Balkh, etc... No literate person thinks of them as colonies: in fact, maybe Iran was a colony of Central Asia at that time (that is fine :) ). I don't know who put this idea in your mind but I guess some arrogant ignorant person said this .... and you are taking it too seriously, as if it were gospel.

Of course, Iranians will say Central Asia was part of Greater Iran, but you can go and brag that during Samanid era much of Iran was part of Greater Khorasan. Every side may claim bragging rights ... but don't give up on yourselves and feel that only the other side is right.

So, yes, I understand Mankurtisation and its effects. It is fine too, why not ? If most Tajiks want to be Russians no one will stop them ... because nobody cares at this time ... but one day you will feel so sad to have become another ape like those Indians, Japanese, and Chinese who copy everything from West and will have nothing of their own left ... That is fine if you like amnesia, and it might be even argued to be a form of therapy. So, yes, in some sense becoming the master or like the master has many advantages, and of course you can forget your past ... just as an alcoholic or drug addict
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#48 User is offline   Ahhangar Icon

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Posted 11 July 2008 - 08:12 AM

[QUOTE=Darius;11195]Dear Ahhangar,

Our brother Dushanbe did not answer to my posts and a simple question: what is the difference between these 2 terms: Persian and Tajik. That means he's not sure about it yet.

And I totally disagree with him with regard to his latest post. By calling ourselves with our own name (Persian or Iranian) we are not pushing ourselves into someone else's embrace. Tajikistan is located in the area where the Persian language came to existence; the land that gave first greatest Iranian/Persian poets and thinkers. All our major regions and districts are mentioned in Shahname as cities of Eranshahr (Iran). Persian is my mother tongue and Iranian is my land. I have not borrowed none of them from anybody else. What's that complex about? I dunno.

That's why, as said earlier, Tajik is nothing but our Turkic-Mongol name. Before we were Soghdians, Bactrians, Khorezmians etc. Now we speak Persian and ethnically we are Iranian. That makes us de facto Persian. We should make it dejure as well.[/QUOTE]

Dear Darius,

People like yourself whom have gained an awareness of what Iranian really means and have come to accept it is fine...but there will be people from Tajikistan whom have had bad experiences with people from Iran and Afghanistan and/or just have a Tajikistan centric viewpoint only with no interest in Pan Iranic thinking whom will not accept.

I believe if the person is sincere - then no matter how he objects now - he will come to realize his mistakes - once we make a greater effort to convince them.

But if the opposition is simply because they are against the unity and strengthening of the Iranic peoples then it is another matter.

With Dushanbe I am not sure.

Ahhangar
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#49 User is offline   Dushanbe Icon

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Posted 11 July 2008 - 03:35 PM

Dear Ahhangar,

The main difference between my views and some others in this forum is, I think, in our approach to this issue.

They think that having one name for our language, ourselves and having one scrip will unite us or will bring to unity. And, according to them, we in Tajikistan should change the term Tajik into Persian and change the script into Perso-Arabic. This is their main approach.

My approach:
My approach is different. I believe that unity can be reached only without any preconditions. There are many examples in the world (one of them is 2 Koreas) that again and again proves us that having a common history, culture, language, and script does not mean a unity and oneness. The main thing that can bring to unity and oneness is the feeling and sense of unity and oneness.

What is needed to have that sense?

Let the people try to learn each other independently. Several bridges have already been built between Afghanistan and Tajikistan that increased the peoples collaboration and trade. In comparison to 10 years ago, now more and more peoples from three countries are visiting each others countries for different reasons like tourism, trade and education. Soon we will have a common TV channel which will serve as a window between our peoples. After some years we will have a railway that crosses three countries. We have air flights to each others countries and hopefully their numbers will increase together with increase in life standards, and etc. (And, additionally, now we have this kind of forum in which we debate and communicate and hopefully we will have more things like this, let me say after 5-10 years from now).

Dear Ahhangar, I am telling you why their approach to this matter will make things worse and why my position is better. Changing the names, making people to call themselves differently, telling them that all the time they have been called not correctly, forcing them to learn another script will bring a lot of frustration to the people of any country and as a result they will hate all the changes and, as a result will increase the division and sense of being forced something else,

Dear Ahhangar, if you read the statements of my opponents between the lines in this forum, you will see that they are much more influenced by Soviet regime and way of thinking than me. They are more revolutionary while I am more evolutionary. They believe that they can unite the peoples who were divided for 100s of years in 5-10 years. While I believe that at least 1-2 generation change is needed.

Finally, my opponents say: Ok,okwe are destined to unite and we should unite for this reason we should start now by telling the people that Tajik=Persian, we should start calling ourselves Persian and Tajik/Persian/Dari is the same and increase the hours of teaching Perso-Arabic script in our schools and blahblahblah

My response to them is that; you are jumping the steps and stages while simultaneously looking at the ceiling. First we need to overcome the leaning stage that I mentioned above, and only then we can say what we feel towards each other and if there is a necessity to have other things in common or not. Personally I think we should increasing the hours of teaching Tajik classic literature in our schools instead of increasing hours for Persian script.

It is not difficult to understand me. I choose friends not because of common language, script, and history. My friends are those with whom I share values, views and approaches to the self, society and the world. And I would like to be with those whom I know very well and feel comfortable with.

The same thing can be applied to the societies and countries as well.

I hope I managed to make clear my position about these issues, and, hopefully, could show you the dangerous path that my opponents have chosen.

Cheers


[QUOTE=Ahhangar;11314]Dear Darius,

People like yourself whom have gained an awareness of what Iranian really means and have come to accept it is fine...but there will be people from Tajikistan whom have had bad experiences with people from Iran and Afghanistan and/or just have a Tajikistan centric viewpoint only with no interest in Pan Iranic thinking whom will not accept.

I believe if the person is sincere - then no matter how he objects now - he will come to realize his mistakes - once we make a greater effort to convince them.

But if the opposition is simply because they are against the unity and strengthening of the Iranic peoples then it is another matter.

With Dushanbe I am not sure.

Ahhangar[/QUOTE]
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#50 User is offline   Ahhangar Icon

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Posted 11 July 2008 - 11:39 PM

[QUOTE=Dushanbe;11351]Dear Ahhangar,

The main difference between my views and some others in this forum is, I think, in our approach to this issue.

They think that having one name for our language, ourselves and having one scrip will unite us or will bring to unity. And, according to them, we in Tajikistan should change the term Tajik into Persian and change the script into Perso-Arabic. This is their main approach.

My approach:
My approach is different. I believe that unity can be reached only without any preconditions. There are many examples in the world (one of them is 2 Koreas) that again and again proves us that having a common history, culture, language, and script does not mean a unity and oneness. The main thing that can bring to unity and oneness is the feeling and sense of unity and oneness.

What is needed to have that sense?

Let the people try to learn each other independently. Several bridges have already been built between Afghanistan and Tajikistan that increased the peoples collaboration and trade. In comparison to 10 years ago, now more and more peoples from three countries are visiting each others countries for different reasons like tourism, trade and education. Soon we will have a common TV channel which will serve as a window between our peoples. After some years we will have a railway that crosses three countries. We have air flights to each others countries and hopefully their numbers will increase together with increase in life standards, and etc. (And, additionally, now we have this kind of forum in which we debate and communicate and hopefully we will have more things like this, let me say after 5-10 years from now).

Dear Ahhangar, I am telling you why their approach to this matter will make things worse and why my position is better. Changing the names, making people to call themselves differently, telling them that all the time they have been called not correctly, forcing them to learn another script will bring a lot of frustration to the people of any country and as a result they will hate all the changes and, as a result will increase the division and sense of being forced something else,

Dear Ahhangar, if you read the statements of my opponents between the lines in this forum, you will see that they are much more influenced by Soviet regime and way of thinking than me. They are more revolutionary while I am more evolutionary. They believe that they can unite the peoples who were divided for 100s of years in 5-10 years. While I believe that at least 1-2 generation change is needed.

Finally, my opponents say: Ok,okwe are destined to unite and we should unite for this reason we should start now by telling the people that Tajik=Persian, we should start calling ourselves Persian and Tajik/Persian/Dari is the same and increase the hours of teaching Perso-Arabic script in our schools and blahblahblah

My response to them is that; you are jumping the steps and stages while simultaneously looking at the ceiling. First we need to overcome the leaning stage that I mentioned above, and only then we can say what we feel towards each other and if there is a necessity to have other things in common or not. Personally I think we should increasing the hours of teaching Tajik classic literature in our schools instead of increasing hours for Persian script.

It is not difficult to understand me. I choose friends not because of common language, script, and history. My friends are those with whom I share values, views and approaches to the self, society and the world. And I would like to be with those whom I know very well and feel comfortable with.

The same thing can be applied to the societies and countries as well.

I hope I managed to make clear my position about these issues, and, hopefully, could show you the dangerous path that my opponents have chosen.

Cheers[/QUOTE]

Dear Dushanbe,

Thank you for you well thought out response. I appreciate that you took the time.

I totally agree with in the preference for evolutionary thinking to revolutionary thinking. Indeed revolutionary thinking is too blunt and causes lots more damage than the intended benefits. The people have to be made ready for such changes in order that the changes are successful.

As you say, these differences and distances in between us have been cultivated over hundreds of years and needs a very sophisticated and well thought plans of gradual evolutionary change. It is definitely not as simple as advocating for just a name change - script change - and other superficial changes.

The trouble is that in the debate - there are some positions which are adopted by those whom are do not have the interest of our Iranic-Persian peoples at heart. This is what causes so much suspicion and reactionary comments.

We need to set out our goals - common goals - and as long we all agree on the goals - we can always question each other and debate about how we can go about achieving those goals. This is the nature of healthy politics.

My/Our goal: The full sovereignty and prospering of our Iranic peoples - namely the Iranic-Persians - which means all us - Tajikistan Uzbekistan Afghanistan Iran.

Do you agree with this as the ultimate aim?

How do we achieve this?

This is up for debate. There are many ways to a desired place - deciding on the best way requires wisdom.

Evolutionary over revolutionary is better on certain issues and vice versa on others.

etc
etc.

Ahhangar
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#51 User is offline   Kambiz Icon

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Posted 12 July 2008 - 12:10 AM

Dushanbe's well thought out response does not clarify his position in a proper way. Furthermore, it distorts realities and other people's positions and accuses them of being 'revolutionary', 'wrong-aimed', 'dangerous', 'impatient' opponents of our dear brother. While he believes that only his position is totally correct and will serve the nation. To make it worse he accuses his opponents of being loyal to Soviet principles.

I believe our brother is still deeply engulfed in Soviet ideology which is totally understandable. Over 70 years of the Soviet mind-building achieved through terminating the memories of the past have left a very deep scar on our society. Therefore, most of the people still cannot digest the facts of their national identity. Basically, Tajikistan is undergoing a very serious crisis of identity and this kind of debates that are going on within the country too reflects the bitter truth of being lost as a result of the Soviet fabrications.

I have not heard any opponent of Dushanbe's view giving us an exact timetable of the changes that should take place in this regard. And I am not sure where Dushanbe got '5 to 10 years' period from for going back to the Persian script and our real identity. I am convinced that the process will be much longer than that and presumably it is not something we would witness in our lifetime.

For the script once I had suggested to use both of them in parallel for at least 25-30 years with a gradual increase of the Persian usage and gradual termination of the Cyrillic one. How revolutionary does it sound to our brother?

By increasing academic hours for Persian literature what could be achieved while the Cyrillic script presents almost all words with a wrong pronunciation and transliteration? Even our greatest poets like Laiq Sher'ali, Bazar Sabir, Gulruxsar and Farzana have poetic lapses in their poetry precisely due to inability of the Cyrillic script to replace the Persian. And why Persian script should not be taught more thoroughly if we really assume our position to be evolutionary? Where is the evolution hidden in the process? Don't you think that denying a change to take place is a typical reactionary stance?

We are not talking about making friends and having chitter-chatters with them. No matter how deep the difference is between the two Koreas, but their identity and language are stil intact and they have not faced any crisis in this regard. Whereas we are still unable to identify ourselves and our language in a due way. They have been changed for us in 1929 (Tajikistan) and 1964 (Afghanistan), and we have submissively accepted our fake, unstable and vague identities made by aliens. Moreover, some of us are trying to convince the rest that we ought to remain at the same point designated for us by aliens. In such a case we have to forget about any kind of unity altogether and each go our own miserable paths while other nations (like Turkic ones) with different languages are trying to overcome all obstacles to go the way together.

Therefore, I reckon Dushanbe's stance is reactionary and extremely dangerous for Persians' identity.
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Posted 12 July 2008 - 12:43 AM

Dorud bar hama,

I wonder where does this revolutionary vs evolutionary ideas come from?

As far as I remember, non of us especially those who think Persian should be promoted in TJ, said that it should be revolutionary! I remember several of Rika Khana's posts in which he proposed that big ideas should be gradual and everybody had consent about it. I have also noticed that in non of our posts we have set a time table or convinced every body that promotion of our own script, Parsi, should be revolutionary. Instead, I have suggested that we should take steps in bringing Parsi back in TJ, by adding Parsi transliteration under Cyrillic and thus educating people of TJ to learn Parsi. This will take several decades in order for people to get used to it and realize the importance of their own language, heritage and culture. But I do not see any revolutionary things in that, so I wonder why people are afraid of bringing Parsi back other than it lacks several vowels and takes little bit time to master. Nothing is easy, and changing to Latin is also not going to be as easy as it seems. But just because it's little bit difficult it does not mean that we have to change to completely new script.

At the mean time, I am no pro-arab script promotion but adapting Parsi back and developing it further can significantly help nation to regain its lost position and hopefully get out of clutches of clergies when they try to use Parsi for religious purposes.



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