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Who are Aimaqs and Qizilbash? Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   asif1986 Icon

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Posted 16 August 2009 - 03:56 PM

Are they tajiks?
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#2 User is offline   Gul agha Icon

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Posted 17 August 2009 - 08:36 AM

Yes, both are
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Posted 17 August 2009 - 11:38 AM

View PostGul agha, on 17 August 2009 - 09:36 AM, said:

Yes, both are

The question then is why dont they describe themselves as tajiks in the census and estimates.Why are they grouped separately in population estimates?
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Posted 17 August 2009 - 07:04 PM

View Postasif1986, on 17 August 2009 - 12:38 PM, said:

The question then is why dont they describe themselves as tajiks in the census and estimates.Why are they grouped separately in population estimates?


Because Afghanistan has an anti Tajik government which wants to divide this ethnicity. They not only divided Tajiks by creating these fake identities but by creating the Pamiri, Panjshiri and the Farsiwan indentity.
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Posted 17 August 2009 - 07:58 PM

View PostGul agha, on 17 August 2009 - 08:04 PM, said:

Because Afghanistan has an anti Tajik government which wants to divide this ethnicity. They not only divided Tajiks by creating these fake identities but by creating the Pamiri, Panjshiri and the Farsiwan indentity.

Are the aimaqs,qizilbash and others aware of this conspiracy. what are their thoughts?
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Posted 18 August 2009 - 10:56 PM

oh god can you guys please stop crying like women and discuss politics like men? stop with this victim complex.

qizilbash are turkic tribes from Iran who entered Afghanistan as Nader Shah Afshars mercenaries. They dont consider themselves Tajiks because theyre not. The only ties are linguistic.

In fact it was either Qizilbash warriors or the Turkman brigade that in all likelyhood assasinated Nader Shah, and it was in fact Ahmad Khan Sadozais Abdali brigade who held the most loyalty to Nader Shah

Which goes to show how stupid and asinine it is to view the history of our region through the prism of ethnicity. But of course you would need to read a book to know that
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Posted 18 August 2009 - 10:57 PM

View PostGul agha, on 17 August 2009 - 07:04 PM, said:

Because Afghanistan has an anti Tajik government which wants to divide this ethnicity. They not only divided Tajiks by creating these fake identities but by creating the Pamiri, Panjshiri and the Farsiwan indentity.


Do you believe that Pamiris, Qizilbash and a Persian are the EXACT same?
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Posted 19 August 2009 - 12:08 AM

View PostANSARI, on 18 August 2009 - 11:57 PM, said:

Do you believe that Pamiris, Qizilbash and a Persian are the EXACT same?


Can you tell me what the different is between these three groups? do they look different? do they have different cultures? can you define what ethnicity is?
Ba Naam e Khudahvand e Jan o Kherad, Kazeen Bartar Andisha Bar Nagzarad

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Posted 19 August 2009 - 12:21 AM

View PostANSARI, on 18 August 2009 - 11:56 PM, said:

oh god can you guys please stop crying like women and discuss politics like men? stop with this victim complex.

qizilbash are turkic tribes from Iran who entered Afghanistan as Nader Shah Afshars mercenaries. They dont consider themselves Tajiks because theyre not. The only ties are linguistic.

In fact it was either Qizilbash warriors or the Turkman brigade that in all likelyhood assasinated Nader Shah, and it was in fact Ahmad Khan Sadozais Abdali brigade who held the most loyalty to Nader Shah

Which goes to show how stupid and asinine it is to view the history of our region through the prism of ethnicity. But of course you would need to read a book to know that


No one is crying we are simply telling the truth and Afghans (Pashtuns) like you can't stop us. It seems you lack knowledge about the Qizilbash. I am a Qizilbash-Tajik from Chendawol. Qizilbash was a confederation of different ethnic groups and tribes. The two main groups were Turk and Tajik and most of the Qizilbash who came to Kabul,Kandahar, and northern Afghanistan were the Tajik-Qizilbash. This is why none of the Qizilbash in Afghanistan look similar to other Turkic ethnic groups like the Turkmen, Uzbek, and Hazara. The Qizilbash in Afghanistan also aren't categorized by tribes (turkic) but by clans (Persians and Tajiks). The Qizilbash in Afghanistan also have always been Persian speaking while the Turkic qizilbash were Afshari and turkic speaking till the 20th century. However, the Afshar tribe who came to Afghanistan are the only Turkic group and Bayats are Azeri-kurd.

In Murad Khani most of the Tajik-Qizilbash are from Simnan, Mashad, and Shiraz while in Chendawol most of the Qizilbash are from Tabaristan, Khaaf (Khorasan), Shiraz, Kerman, Kermanshah, and Kurdistan (Sepah mansoura and gala-goora). In Wazirabad, most of the Qizilbash are from Fars province. Another reason why the Qizilbash of Afghanistan are Iranic-Tajik is because they were "ahle Divaan" and "Ahle Qalam" while the Turkic Qizilbash were more warriors and fighters. Also on our Shenasnama (I.D. card) under ethnicity it always said Tajik instead of Qizilbash and this changed when Hamed Karzai came into power.
Ba Naam e Khudahvand e Jan o Kherad, Kazeen Bartar Andisha Bar Nagzarad

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Posted 19 August 2009 - 12:22 AM

View PostANSARI, on 18 August 2009 - 11:56 PM, said:

oh god can you guys please stop crying like women and discuss politics like men? stop with this victim complex.

qizilbash are turkic tribes from Iran who entered Afghanistan as Nader Shah Afshars mercenaries. They dont consider themselves Tajiks because theyre not. The only ties are linguistic.

In fact it was either Qizilbash warriors or the Turkman brigade that in all likelyhood assasinated Nader Shah, and it was in fact Ahmad Khan Sadozais Abdali brigade who held the most loyalty to Nader Shah

Which goes to show how stupid and asinine it is to view the history of our region through the prism of ethnicity. But of course you would need to read a book to know that


according to new research on Ahmad Shah Abdali, Ahmad Shah Abdali also had a hand in Nader Afshar's murder and he had contacts with the British agent, Saber Shah Lahori.
Ba Naam e Khudahvand e Jan o Kherad, Kazeen Bartar Andisha Bar Nagzarad

به نام خداوند جان و خرد، کزین برتر اندیشه برنگذرد
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#11 User is offline   Gul agha Icon

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Posted 19 August 2009 - 12:23 AM

"Turk & Tājīk"

Among the Kizilbash, Turcoman tribes from Eastern Anatolia and Azerbaijan who had helped Shah Ismail I defeat the Aq Qoyunlu tribe were by far the most important - in number and influence. Therefore the name Kizilbash is usually applied to them only.[8] Some of these greater Turcoman tribes were subdivided into as many as eight or nine clans and included the:
Ustādjlu
Rumlu
Shāmlu (the most powerful clan during the reign of Shah Ismail I.)
Dulghadir (Arabic: Dhu 'l-Kadar)
Afshār
Qājār
Takkalu
Other tribes, such as Turkman, Bahārlu, Warsāk, or Bayāt were occasionally listed among these "seven great uymaqs". Some of these names consist of a place-name with addition of the Turkish suffix -lu, such as Shāmlu or Bahārlu. Other names are those of old Oghuz tribes such as Afshār, Dulghadir, or Bayāt, as mentioned by the medieval Uyghur historian Mahmoud Al-Kāshgharī. The origin of the name Ustādjlu, however, is unknown and possibly indicates a non-Turkic origin of the tribe.
The non-Turkic or non-Turkish-speaking Iranian tribes among the Kizilbash were called Tājiks by the Turcomans and included:[8][9]
Tālish
Siāh-Kuh (Karādja-Dagh)
Lur tribes (for example the Zand)
certain Kurdish tribes
certain Persian families and clans
The rivalry between the Turkic clans and Persian nobles was a major problem in the Safavid kingdom and caused much trouble. As V. Minorsky put it, friction between these two groups was inevitable, because the Turcomans "were no party to the national Persian tradition". Shah Ismail tried to solve the problem by appointing Persian wakils as commanders of Kizilbash tribes. However, the Turcomans considered this an insult and brought about the death of 3 of the 5 Persians appointed to this office - an act, that later inspired the deprivation of the Turcomans by Shah Abbas I.[10]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qizilbash
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Posted 10 September 2009 - 03:43 PM

View PostANSARI, on 18 August 2009 - 11:56 PM, said:

oh god can you guys please stop crying like women and discuss politics like men? stop with this victim complex.


:lol:

View PostANSARI, on 18 August 2009 - 11:56 PM, said:

qizilbash are turkic tribes from Iran who entered Afghanistan as Nader Shah Afshars mercenaries. They dont consider themselves Tajiks because theyre not. The only ties are linguistic.

In fact it was either Qizilbash warriors or the Turkman brigade that in all likelyhood assasinated Nader Shah, and it was in fact Ahmad Khan Sadozais Abdali brigade who held the most loyalty to Nader Shah

Which goes to show how stupid and asinine it is to view the history of our region through the prism of ethnicity. But of course you would need to read a book to know that


I don't think the Qizilbash are Turkic, maybe just Turkified? they do look Caucasian. And the last I was told, the Aimaq are Turkic.
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#13 User is offline   Gul agha Icon

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Posted 11 September 2009 - 07:59 AM

How can they be turkified when their culture and language is Persian. There is no turkish connection between modern day Qizilbash and most of them were never part of the turkic civilization.
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Posted 22 October 2009 - 09:50 PM

The Aimaks belong to the Non-Pashtun Kuchi groups and are splitted into two branches of races. One is Iranic and the other is Turko-Mongolian. The Hazara Aimaks are ''mongolic'' with Tajik elements and belong to the Hazaras of Bamian, while Jamshedis and Taimuris are of Iranic-Tajik stock. There is another group called Taimani. It is said, that a certain Taiman who was of Kakar tribe from south-east Punjab moved to Khorasan when the political situation changed in the 15th century. He and 12 Kakar ''Pashtun'' families moved to Ghor with Khorasanian cafravans from Hindustan. They became soon assimilated by the Persian population of Ghor who killed their Kakar Pashtun identity and language. To remember their original background this Persian-Tajik tribe called themself after their ''sarban'', caravan-leader..Taiman.

The Qizilbashs were the elite of the Safavid military and management. They were recruited from all corners of their empire, from west and east(even from Delhi and Kashmir, Kabul and Kandahar (Kandahar was a centre of Ismaili religion and to 90% populated by Tajiks, even 100 years ago)). Most of them were Shia, Ismaili-Shia and Alevits. The Qizilbashs were devided into two races. The Altayic and the Iranic ones. The Iranic Qizilbashs were called as Tajiks while the Non-Iranic Qizlbashs were Turks (Afhars, Bayats, Kajjar). During Nader Shah Afshar´s reign, even Abdali Pushtuns became Qizilbashs. The Qizilbashs managed for Pashtun kings their empire and kept the non-Pashtuns calm from revolutions, they worked as doctors, teachers, they had positions as generals, babysitters for the dirts of the Pushtun kings, scientists...Under Abdurrahman and Nader Ghader 50 000 of them were forced to leave the contry and go to Kashmir, Punjab, India and Arabia. Today, the Qizilbash community is getting stronger and stronger again and also wealthier in soujth-east Asia and Central Asia. Pushtuns were always jealous of them. That was also one reason for them to build their districts like fortress abd stronghold to keep Pushtuns and other nationalists and islamists away from their goods. Most fruitable lands in Kabul, Kandahar and Peshawar valley belong to this group. Some of Pakistani and Indian presidents were or are of Qizilbash descandt, also in Afghanistan (Karmal). Who knows, maybe Bayat will become one day a president of freed Khorasan.

@Ansari
Do you think you bedouine Arab are the same as Arabs from Saudi Arabia and Marokko or Oman?
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