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The Tajik Tragedy Rate Topic: -----

#61 User is offline   Nader Shah Icon

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Posted 22 November 2010 - 03:51 AM

Based on today's news, Blackwell lost. Let us wait and see. Seems like they do not want to lose any part of Afghanistan. They are still hoping to defeat the Taliban. Whatever, but for now the partition plan seems to be on the backburner.
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#62 User is offline   Nader Shah Icon

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Posted 24 November 2010 - 02:29 AM

Dear Gul Agha, can you comment on how you see the Blackwell proposal going towards implementation, or lack thereof ?
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#63 User is offline   Gul agha Icon

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Posted 24 November 2010 - 08:31 PM

View Postقزلباش, on 20 November 2010 - 07:52 AM, said:

Gul agha, i dont think there is an immediate need for separatism in afghanistan
As far as i know, persian culture and language are not under threat


why do you think that this separation is necessary ?



In order to bring peace and stability in the region we need to partition Afghanistan and maybe Pakistan. Tajiks and Pashtuns cannot co-exist and they do not want to co-exist. Our interests conflict and if we keep Afghanistan together, this clash of civilizations will only spread and will destabilize all of Central Asia and Iran.
Ba Naam e Khudahvand e Jan o Kherad, Kazeen Bartar Andisha Bar Nagzarad

به نام خداوند جان و خرد، کزین برتر اندیشه برنگذرد
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#64 User is offline   Gul agha Icon

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Posted 24 November 2010 - 08:40 PM

View PostNader Shah, on 20 November 2010 - 06:56 PM, said:

Thanks, dear Gul Agha.

I watched the video. I also googled afghan partition: all refer to Robert Blackwill's proposal. This person seems to be influential according to the following article (which I am sure you must have read before) in making major policy changes;
http://www.atimes.co...a/LI18Df02.html
:
So, yes, now I can see that the possibilty for partition soon is more likely than I thought because the possibility of foreign intervention to do this is more likely than I thought. Let us wait and see if this plan becomes policy or not.

However, more questions arise, if this plan is implemented:
(1) how will the borders be defined ... I am curious ... have you seen a map of the new borders that you can show here ?
(2) how will the taliban react to the new borders ... will they be happy to rule a smaller area ... will they contest the new borders (I am sure they will) ... and how long will they be fighting to regain land lost ... will there be a war that could last for a long long time and drain all the resources of the north
(3) how will the new northern entity take shape ... within the new enclave will the hazaras & uzbeks want their own country ... will there be internal fights between the tajiks and the two new groups


Plan B has gained momentum in the last few months and is a major back up plan for the US.

(1) I will post a map soon of how we want Afghanistan divided.
(2) The Taliban will react but they will not invade us because at that moment they will be politicians and statesmen again not insurgents in their Pashtunistan. The Taliban in the past has proposed to the government that they only want the southern provinces and if the borders are protected they will not be able to do anything, especially if the US forces protect it for a while. If the US and NATO leave before they partition Afghanistan, a civil war will kill millions and war will ravage Afghanistan but if the US systematically partitions the country and withdraws from the south, it will save millions of lives.
(3) Our goal is to create two independent nation-states (Aryana/Khorasan and Pakhtunkhwa/Pashtunistan) and in the non-pashtun state we will have many minorities but the Tajiks will constitute the majority and will have the central government in their hands. Hazaras will not resist because they are dependent on Tajiks and their progressive and industrial cities and towns, natural resources and other factors. I would give Hazaras their semi-autonomous Hazaristan so they will keep calm. Uzbeks are too weak to do anything and might have some rights in their regions but right now they are propagating for a Guney Turkistan/Southern Turkistan if Afghanistan gets partitioned and this is impossible since they claim 80% of Northern Afghanistan and they have limited resources and no power to execute this plan.
Ba Naam e Khudahvand e Jan o Kherad, Kazeen Bartar Andisha Bar Nagzarad

به نام خداوند جان و خرد، کزین برتر اندیشه برنگذرد
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#65 User is offline   Gul agha Icon

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Posted 24 November 2010 - 08:44 PM

View PostNader Shah, on 22 November 2010 - 03:51 AM, said:

Based on today's news, Blackwell lost. Let us wait and see. Seems like they do not want to lose any part of Afghanistan. They are still hoping to defeat the Taliban. Whatever, but for now the partition plan seems to be on the backburner.


Actually Plan B is the US's real strategy and people who are inside Afghanistan are seeing this. The US is building permanent bases in Northern and Western Afghanistan but none in the Pashtun regions. Consulates are being built in Herat and Mazar but not in Jalalabad or Kandahar. the US's aiding and arming Tajiks like Ostad Atta (Balkh's governor), Amrullah Saleh, and other Tajik commanders. The results in the recent parliamentary elections is very pro Tajik and the US had a role in helping Tajiks get elected. All of these are signs that Afghanistan is being partitioned.
Ba Naam e Khudahvand e Jan o Kherad, Kazeen Bartar Andisha Bar Nagzarad

به نام خداوند جان و خرد، کزین برتر اندیشه برنگذرد
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#66 User is offline   قزلباش Icon

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Posted 25 November 2010 - 02:38 AM

View PostGul agha, on 24 November 2010 - 03:31 PM, said:

In order to bring peace and stability in the region we need to partition Afghanistan and maybe Pakistan. Tajiks and Pashtuns cannot co-exist and they do not want to co-exist. Our interests conflict and if we keep Afghanistan together, this clash of civilizations will only spread and will destabilize all of Central Asia and Iran.


Gul agha, There is certainly an ongoing clash of civilizations in Afghanistan
Do you really think that Persian culture will be defeated and supplanted by what is, with all due respect, a crude tribal pseudo-culture?

If anything, they are the ones losing the clash of civilizations
They are moving into cities, they are loosening their tribal allegiances, they are learning persian.

Persian culture turned Genghis Khan into Mohammad Khodabandeh
why do you think that it will not win this encounter?
Why should we cut and run when we are winning?

The fact of the matter is that Afghanistan needs the development funds that NATO brings and the funds will flow only as long as the Pashtuns keep shooting at NATO
You can essentially finance the development of Afghanistan with NATO money and Taliban blood.
Furthermore, you must heavily participate in government in order to ensure that most of those funds end up in the persian areas of Afghanistan

If Khorasan is created, NATO wont give it a dime because it has no motivation to secure the goodwill of an already non-belligerent population.
Khorasan will wither in abject poverty; the kind of cyclical poverty than can take centuries to overcome without foreign assistance
هیچ وقت به خدا نگو یه مشکل بزرگ دارم
به مشکل بگو من یه خدای بزرگ دارم


Go tell the wolves that although the father has been killed,
The father's gun is with us still
Tell them that although all the men of the tribe have been killed,
There is a young boy in the cradle still

Bakhtiari Proverb
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#67 User is offline   Kakar Icon

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Posted 25 November 2010 - 11:46 PM

While I would love to see a united Pakhtunkhwa, I dont think this is possible for at least 2 generations, neither is the dream of Khorassan

it has to be gradual

The immediate need is the establishment of a strong centralized Islamic govt, that can create an effective centralized bureaucracy. this needs to be in place for at least a generation

then the central power (revolving around Kabul province lets say), has to decentralize, and create 4 or 5 mega provinces with more power to the regional govts, but with defence/foreign affairs under central authority

then one generation later, the option can be put to the people, and at least clear demarcations have already been established, and also the local people will have been empowered culturally, lingustically and politically

if this happens tomorrow, pakistan will swallow the south and east, and iran will swallow the west and north

over the next 2 generations, Pakistan will cease to exist and the Mullah dictatorship in Iran will hopefully be overthrown
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#68 User is offline   قزلباش Icon

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Posted 27 November 2010 - 05:25 PM

View PostKakar, on 25 November 2010 - 06:46 PM, said:

While I would love to see a united Pakhtunkhwa, I dont think this is possible for at least 2 generations, neither is the dream of Khorassan

it has to be gradual

The immediate need is the establishment of a strong centralized Islamic govt, that can create an effective centralized bureaucracy. this needs to be in place for at least a generation

then the central power (revolving around Kabul province lets say), has to decentralize, and create 4 or 5 mega provinces with more power to the regional govts, but with defence/foreign affairs under central authority

then one generation later, the option can be put to the people, and at least clear demarcations have already been established, and also the local people will have been empowered culturally, lingustically and politically

if this happens tomorrow, pakistan will swallow the south and east, and iran will swallow the west and north

over the next 2 generations, Pakistan will cease to exist and the Mullah dictatorship in Iran will hopefully be overthrown


I agree

Economic and social development of Afghanistan must precede any regionalist movements.
However, it is important to make sure that all groups all able to preserve their culture/language in the mean time.

The only occurrence that could push the timetable forward is the breakup of Pakistan; under that scenario, we would need to accept the situation as a fait accompli and proceed to form the desired ethnic states (Khorasan/Pashtunistan)
هیچ وقت به خدا نگو یه مشکل بزرگ دارم
به مشکل بگو من یه خدای بزرگ دارم


Go tell the wolves that although the father has been killed,
The father's gun is with us still
Tell them that although all the men of the tribe have been killed,
There is a young boy in the cradle still

Bakhtiari Proverb
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#69 User is offline   Parsistani Icon

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Posted 28 November 2010 - 03:17 PM

Quote

Now, before anyone calls me a Lur-e-jangara, I will explain why I have concluded that the military option is they only feasible solution.
The central concern is the fragility of the Persian population of Samarqand and Bukhara and the logistic hurdles that we face; the problem is that Samarqand and Bukhara represent small but populous concentrations and they are therefore extremely vulnerable.
They are vulnerable because relatively effortless population movements can completely change the demographics of these cities; we must understand that if the Karimov government or its successors ever feel threatened, they can easily and rapidly change the demographics of these cities and destroy the Tajik majority.
This vulnerability of Samarqand and Bukhara is the reason that we cannot utilize nonviolent movements and the reason that we must elect to use decisive military action.


Tajiks are registered as 5% in Uzbekistan. Formally, Bukhara and Samarkand are ''Uzbek'' cities, inofficially, they are Tajik cities with 80% Tajik (as Uzbek registered Tajiks) population. The Bukhara-clan and Samarkand-clan have very good ties to eachother and working paralell to Karimov´s ''Uzbekization'' program to reveal the Iranic heritage of the region.

Richard Foltz, "The Tajiks of Uzbekistan", Central Asian Survey, 15(2), 213-216 (1996);
Rahmonov, Emomali (2001). The Tajiks in the Mirror of History: From the Aryans to the Samanids. Guernsey, United Kingdom: London River Editions. pp. 272.

http://ula.uzsci.net...ng/ru/etnic.htm
http://www.state.gov...pt/1999/369.htm
http://www.angelfire...asov/frame.html
http://www.cornellca...0uzbekistan.htm

Quote

The key to success in any attempt to annex territory in our modern UN-dominated world is to not appear to be the aggressor. In short, we would need to provoke the Uzbekistani government into attacking us.
This is fairly simple to do and it can be accomplished through shrewd use of Tajikistan’s stranglehold on the rivers that sustain Uzbekistan. The Zarafshan and the Amu Darya rivers which consistitute the lifeline of Uzbekistan both have their headwaters in Tajikistan and we can use this fact to our advantage. We can discreetly manipulate these water resources in order to provoke Uzbek military action.
Once the Uzbeks do “initiate” hostilities, the Tajiks must fall back in apparent disarray as the international community looks on in sympathy and witnesses the Uzbek “aggressor” brutalize its weaker neighbor.


Tajikistan is already using his (drink) water policy against Uzbekistan. The life of Uzbekistan and it´s economy (90% of it´s industry is based on wool industry). Of course, a military action would be the best and quick way to retake those regions back since Uzbekistan´s army is also not strong enough (85 000 men) but what´s about Russia, an ally of Uzbekistan? And we have also Khiva and Merv, shall they also be annexed or shall we just replace the population from there with Uzbeks from south?

Quote

I feel the same thinking of all those Pakistanis in Peshawar, our Pashtun city. But it pales in comparison to your loss.

a century ago the Bukhara and Khiva emirs discriminated against Farsi while Pashtuns spoke Farsi in Kabul and Peshawar.


Peshawari boy, Peshawar was colonized by Yusufzai Pashtuns in the 16th century. Before that date, the region was multi-cultural and Persian with a small Pashtun Bangash and Zirak population. That Pashtuns in Kabul ''spoke'' Farsi is because Kabul is a non-Pashtun province and city. You are immigrants there and thus have to learn the native language...understand?! The other reason was that Qezelbash and other Tajik people were provided by your bi-sexual Baba Zaher with Pashtanas with whom they could bear more and more Persianspeakers and persianize the pro-Pashtun fascist Musahiban family. Now they burn all in hell. God thanks...he is indeed almighty.

Quote

There is no denying the fact that the situation of the afghan persians is infinitely better than the situation of uzbek persians.
It is undeniable.


What the hell is ''afghan persians''? Either you are a Tajik or an Awghan=Pushtun. Tajiks do not considere themself as Awghans. Only Pashmtuns try to cover with their dirty name all non-Pashtuns because of ''unity'' and future colonialization.
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Posted 28 November 2010 - 03:30 PM

View PostKakar, on 16 November 2010 - 11:52 PM, said:

this is the first time Ive seen a Persian address this critical issue. I have great respect for you. I just finished reading a book Chenghiz Khan, and Ive always been fascinated with the variouS Turkic tribes and migrations generally speaking.

the very fact that Tajiks seem to love Uzbeks in Afghanistan but express venom for Pashtuns boggles my mind! Like, dude, Uzbeks are not even native to northern Afghanistan like Tajiks are....at least Pashtuns claim to a significant degree, ancestry from these Iranic tribes that were pushed south from central Asia.

Hence, why no Pashtun has ever expressed any opposition or concern to the name of Aryana


Hey Peshawari Jewi Jee boy, do you now claim beeing from north? Can you bring us some evidances? Where did you have your information? From between your mother´s legs? Are you now out of your mind again? For more than 1800 years the filthy word ''Awghan'' was mentioned around the Sulaiman Ranges and now you claim beeing from north? So? When or who did you pushed ''south''? The Mongols? Arabi-Jewish-Dravido-Indian boy, you should recognize that those ''Iranic tribes'' were not Iranic nor spoke any Iranic tounge. They were like Turks and Mongols (Jaji, Zadran, Mangal, Kharoti, GHalzai, Yap-tal-i-ao etc). Can you give us some evidances of any ''Awghan'' traces in the north?

Uneducated loser, since you are a dog I can understand you do not know that it was your Zaher Shah and the first time in Pashtuns history to listen to a word like ''Aryan'' or ''Aryana'' (Greec). For 50 years, you Khar still believed hardly of your jewish origine, today you try to claim beeing ''Aryan''. You aren´t. You are a BASTARD. If you do not know it...when it came to a debate about a name change to Khorasan or Aryana in the 50s, it were you Pashtun whores from south-east who asked us what ''Aryans'' mean and that Awghanistan is not Iran. It were also you dogzais that were alien to words like Iran, Aryana, Shahnama etc. Now you Harami wannabe ''Aryan'' with a BASTARD background claim beeing ''aryan''? You Khar...in Pakistan, still majority of Pushtuns belive beeing the direct descandants of jews which is only half correct. The term ''Aryana'' became famous and in use among Awghools like yourself when you saw that semite-looking dogs became victims of the WHITE RACE and thus you used Persian words (Aryana Airlines, Aryana TV etc) to identify yourself with the ancient history of Iranians, Uzbeks and Tajiks.

Uzbeks were living muxh longer in Afghanistan than Pashtuns do. Uzbeks became the last 500 years native to Afghanistan while Awghools are still immigrants in southern and eastern Afghanistan. Can you give us some evidance that Awghool Jews, Turko-Mongolian Dravidian seeds had any trace in Awghanistan at the same time like Uzbeks? ...I guess..you can´t. All your propagated heroes are and were immigrants, either from Delhi, Multan, Lahor etc., including your Ahmad Khan Abdali Multani...the ''boy'' of Nadir, filthy Pushtun. Be aware what you are talking...stupid tailed Awghan
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Posted 28 November 2010 - 03:36 PM

View Postقزلباش, on 17 November 2010 - 03:05 AM, said:

Marv is ours

Marv was a persian Qajar Qizilbash city until the turkmen barbarians massacred the population in the 18th century
Merv was one of the two centers of the Qajar tribe until the barbarians of the Tekke turkmen tribe attacked it

The Qajars at Marv had been moved to the city by Shah Abbas from Armenia
At the time of the massacre, the city was dominated by persian Qizilbash.
They Tekkes destroyed the Murghab dam and killed the Qajar governor Bayram Ali Khan Qajar
http://books.google....%20Merv&f=false

Qizilbash never forget or forgive


But the Qajjar self are Turkomans...!!!! We have still some Tajiks in Merv some between 20 000 - 30 000 but they make only 0.02% of the Turkoman people. We can only exchange them with Turkoman Nomads from Afg and Iran.
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Posted 28 November 2010 - 04:06 PM

View PostNader Shah, on 20 November 2010 - 06:56 PM, said:

Thanks, dear Gul Agha.

I watched the video. I also googled afghan partition: all refer to Robert Blackwill's proposal. This person seems to be influential according to the following article (which I am sure you must have read before) in making major policy changes;
http://www.atimes.co...a/LI18Df02.html
:
So, yes, now I can see that the possibilty for partition soon is more likely than I thought because the possibility of foreign intervention to do this is more likely than I thought. Let us wait and see if this plan becomes policy or not.

However, more questions arise, if this plan is implemented:
(1) how will the borders be defined ... I am curious ... have you seen a map of the new borders that you can show here ?
(2) how will the taliban react to the new borders ... will they be happy to rule a smaller area ... will they contest the new borders (I am sure they will) ... and how long will they be fighting to regain land lost ... will there be a war that could last for a long long time and drain all the resources of the north
(3) how will the new northern entity take shape ... within the new enclave will the hazaras & uzbeks want their own country ... will there be internal fights between the tajiks and the two new groups


The borders will be set from Kandahar city self to Ghazni, Kabul, Laghman, Paghman, Lashkargah, Gardez..that will be the eastern and southern borders. All region eastern and southern can go to Pushtuns, the dirt-eater.
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Posted 28 November 2010 - 04:13 PM

View Postقزلباش, on 25 November 2010 - 02:38 AM, said:

Gul agha, There is certainly an ongoing clash of civilizations in Afghanistan
Do you really think that Persian culture will be defeated and supplanted by what is, with all due respect, a crude tribal pseudo-culture?

If anything, they are the ones losing the clash of civilizations
They are moving into cities, they are loosening their tribal allegiances, they are learning persian.

Persian culture turned Genghis Khan into Mohammad Khodabandeh
why do you think that it will not win this encounter?
Why should we cut and run when we are winning?

The fact of the matter is that Afghanistan needs the development funds that NATO brings and the funds will flow only as long as the Pashtuns keep shooting at NATO
You can essentially finance the development of Afghanistan with NATO money and Taliban blood.
Furthermore, you must heavily participate in government in order to ensure that most of those funds end up in the persian areas of Afghanistan

If Khorasan is created, NATO wont give it a dime because it has no motivation to secure the goodwill of an already non-belligerent population.
Khorasan will wither in abject poverty; the kind of cyclical poverty than can take centuries to overcome without foreign assistance


Mongols became civilizied, Turks and Arabs became human, empires came and gone...only Pushtuns kept animals. You can never calm a filthy Dogggykhel Mongol with a fake identity. Now...they get bloody noses and the sons and daughters of Kai Kobaab, Abu Muslim, Foshanji, Ushtaraki, Khorammdin, Barmak and Afshin won´t let them alive. We will catch them and cut them in pieces!!!
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#74 User is offline   قزلباش Icon

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Posted 28 November 2010 - 09:30 PM

View PostParsistani, on 28 November 2010 - 10:36 AM, said:

But the Qajjar self are Turkomans...!!!! We have still some Tajiks in Merv some between 20 000 - 30 000 but they make only 0.02% of the Turkoman people. We can only exchange them with Turkoman Nomads from Afg and Iran.


My maternal aunt is a Qajar
So i think i know a thing or two about Qajars.
Qajars are, without exception, urban persian-speakers

There are 10,000-20,000 Qajars in Iran and not a single one can be mistaken for a Turkmen, either in conduct or in phenotype

The Qajars lived in Armenia until the time of Shah Abbas I when they were sent to Mazandaran to fight the Turkmen
Please recognize the difference between a Turcoman and a Turkmen

I, technically, am a Turcoman because my father is a Shamlu qizilbash
However, we trace ourselves back to turkified Syrian Kurds and a Shamlu can never be mistaken for a Turkmen.
هیچ وقت به خدا نگو یه مشکل بزرگ دارم
به مشکل بگو من یه خدای بزرگ دارم


Go tell the wolves that although the father has been killed,
The father's gun is with us still
Tell them that although all the men of the tribe have been killed,
There is a young boy in the cradle still

Bakhtiari Proverb
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#75 User is offline   Nader Shah Icon

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 01:26 AM

Well, I happen to have a little Caucasian Qajar ancestry too, my mother's grandmother to be precise ... I am told she was blond and blue eyed, so I presume there was more Russian than Turkoman there ... in the end, I fully agree with Qizilbash based on my personal experience ... but I understand that being outside Iran you may have misconceptions based on some academic classifications ...

View PostParsistani, on 28 November 2010 - 03:36 PM, said:

But the Qajjar self are Turkomans...!!!! We have still some Tajiks in Merv some between 20 000 - 30 000 but they make only 0.02% of the Turkoman people. We can only exchange them with Turkoman Nomads from Afg and Iran.

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 01:53 AM

View PostNader Shah, on 28 November 2010 - 08:26 PM, said:

Well, I happen to have a little Caucasian Qajar ancestry too, my mother's grandmother to be precise ... I am told she was blond and blue eyed, so I presume there was more Russian than Turkoman there ... in the end, I fully agree with Qizilbash based on my personal experience ... but I understand that being outside Iran you may have misconceptions based on some academic classifications ...


Here is the most famous Qajar woman at the moment: Maryam Rajavi (her maiden name is azodanlu- the name of one of the main branches of the Qajar)

http://image53.websh...13SoAufg_fs.jpg
Posted Image


she is the leader of the main government opposition group- The Mujahedin-e-Khalq
A group that is, accurately in my opinion , considered a terrorist organization

unfortunately, most people cannot recognize the difference between a Turcoman and a Turkmen
هیچ وقت به خدا نگو یه مشکل بزرگ دارم
به مشکل بگو من یه خدای بزرگ دارم


Go tell the wolves that although the father has been killed,
The father's gun is with us still
Tell them that although all the men of the tribe have been killed,
There is a young boy in the cradle still

Bakhtiari Proverb
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#77 User is offline   Gul agha Icon

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 03:22 AM

Qizilbash aziz my theory is that Turcoman is different from Turkman and it comes from the Persian term Turk-maanend (Turk-like).
Ba Naam e Khudahvand e Jan o Kherad, Kazeen Bartar Andisha Bar Nagzarad

به نام خداوند جان و خرد، کزین برتر اندیشه برنگذرد
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Posted 29 November 2010 - 04:24 AM

View PostGul agha, on 28 November 2010 - 10:22 PM, said:

Qizilbash aziz my theory is that Turcoman is different from Turkman and it comes from the Persian term Turk-maanend (Turk-like).


unfortunately most people are too ignorant to comprehend these distinctions

if you look at the wikipedia page on the Qajars, for example, you will see that it asserts that they are Turkmen
whereas, in fact, the Qajars are turcomans who were dispatched from modern-day Armenia to fight the Turkmen in Golestan and Mazandaran

I am not a turkmen and neither are the Qajar
هیچ وقت به خدا نگو یه مشکل بزرگ دارم
به مشکل بگو من یه خدای بزرگ دارم


Go tell the wolves that although the father has been killed,
The father's gun is with us still
Tell them that although all the men of the tribe have been killed,
There is a young boy in the cradle still

Bakhtiari Proverb
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#79 User is offline   Sohrab Icon

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 12:46 PM

so what is turcoman then?
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Posted 29 November 2010 - 04:23 PM

View PostSohrab, on 29 November 2010 - 07:46 AM, said:

so what is turcoman then?


sohrab jan, a turcoman is a turkified turk-zaban

The shamlu (my father's group) are a good example of this .
we spoke kurdish until the 12th century and we were counted among the syrian kurds

However, we slowly became turkified over the course of the 14th century and we became a turk-zaban group

Today, we cant be even considered turcoman because most Shamlu live in Tehran and speak Persian
هیچ وقت به خدا نگو یه مشکل بزرگ دارم
به مشکل بگو من یه خدای بزرگ دارم


Go tell the wolves that although the father has been killed,
The father's gun is with us still
Tell them that although all the men of the tribe have been killed,
There is a young boy in the cradle still

Bakhtiari Proverb
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