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The Tajik Tragedy Rate Topic: -----

#81 User is offline   Sohrab Icon

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Posted 29 November 2010 - 08:19 PM

thanks brother.
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#82 User is offline   Parsistani Icon

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 05:12 PM

View Postقزلباش, on 28 November 2010 - 09:30 PM, said:

My maternal aunt is a Qajar
So i think i know a thing or two about Qajars.
Qajars are, without exception, urban persian-speakers

There are 10,000-20,000 Qajars in Iran and not a single one can be mistaken for a Turkmen, either in conduct or in phenotype

The Qajars lived in Armenia until the time of Shah Abbas I when they were sent to Mazandaran to fight the Turkmen
Please recognize the difference between a Turcoman and a Turkmen

I, technically, am a Turcoman because my father is a Shamlu qizilbash
However, we trace ourselves back to turkified Syrian Kurds and a Shamlu can never be mistaken for a Turkmen.


But Qajars were Turkman people who became Persian-speaker. Actually, there is no difference between ''Turkmens'' and ''Turkomans''. The first word is used for Turkmen people and state and the second was used by non-Turks to describe non-Muslim Turkic people (Oghuz branch>Ghaznavids, Seldjukes, Ottomans). Of course, in the 21th century all Muslim countries, beeing Turkic, Iranic or Arabic, all became urbane. Btw,

Quote

My maternal aunt is a Qajar
, what is this for a sentence? Your aunt is a Qajar but your mother isn´t?

Quote

There are 10,000-20,000 Qajars in Iran and not a single one can be mistaken for a Turkmen, either in conduct or in phenotype


The Qajars lived for centuries in Iran and western Afghanistan (''Black Sheep''). During this time they were absorbed and assimilated thousand times. Turks became Iranians.

Quote

I, technically, am a Turcoman because my father is a Shamlu qizilbash


They aren´t ethnical Turks. Their original origine seems beeing between Azerbaidjan and Gorgan. It is impossible the Shamlus are belonging to the Saris or to the Tats
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#83 User is offline   قزلباش Icon

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 07:28 PM

View PostParsistani, on 03 December 2010 - 12:12 PM, said:

But Qajars were Turkman people who became Persian-speaker. Actually, there is no difference between ''Turkmens'' and ''Turkomans''. The first word is used for Turkmen people and state and the second was used by non-Turks to describe non-Muslim Turkic people (Oghuz branch>Ghaznavids, Seldjukes, Ottomans). Of course, in the 21th century all Muslim countries, beeing Turkic, Iranic or Arabic, all became urbane. Btw, , what is this for a sentence? Your aunt is a Qajar but your mother isn´t?



The Qajars lived for centuries in Iran and western Afghanistan (''Black Sheep''). During this time they were absorbed and assimilated thousand times. Turks became Iranians.



They aren´t ethnical Turks. Their original origine seems beeing between Azerbaidjan and Gorgan. It is impossible the Shamlus are belonging to the Saris or to the Tats


The Qajars spent three centuries in Armenia and that was the period when their group grew in population and power
The Shamlu originated in Syria

My maternal aunt is a Qajar who is married to my Lur uncle.
She was always very concerned that i should make sure to study classical persian literature despite the fact i go to school outside of Iran.
She always bought me books of Persian poetry and encouraged my parents to make me attend shaer and nastaliq classes during my visits to Iran.

Our family interacts quite a bit with their side of the family.
They are very interesting people; two of her male family members are named "Jahan-suz" :D
هیچ وقت به خدا نگو یه مشکل بزرگ دارم
به مشکل بگو من یه خدای بزرگ دارم


Go tell the wolves that although the father has been killed,
The father's gun is with us still
Tell them that although all the men of the tribe have been killed,
There is a young boy in the cradle still

Bakhtiari Proverb
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#84 User is offline   Parsistani Icon

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 07:47 PM

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The Qajars spent three centuries in Armenia and that was the period when their group grew in population and power
The Shamlu originated in Syria


Can you prove that Shamlus are from Syria? There is not a single place in Syria called ''Shaam'' from which the name originates. As I wrote before, the ethos of the tribe´s origine lies somewhere between Azerbiadjan and Gorgan. Since there are only 7 or 8 ''Sham'' region in the entire Iranian plateau we can trace their origine on Tabriz, Gorgan, Tajikistan, northern Uzbekistan-Chiva (that would explain why they became part of Turkmen confederacy), at the west of Tehran, in Mashhad or even possibly in western Kyrgyztan. Btw, do you consider Lurs as Kurds?
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#85 User is offline   قزلباش Icon

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 07:55 PM

View PostParsistani, on 03 December 2010 - 02:47 PM, said:

Can you prove that Shamlus are from Syria? There is not a single place in Syria called ''Shaam'' from which the name originates. As I wrote before, the ethos of the tribe´s origine lies somewhere between Azerbiadjan and Gorgan. Since there are only 7 or 8 ''Sham'' region in the entire Iranian plateau we can trace their origine on Tabriz, Gorgan, Tajikistan, northern Uzbekistan-Chiva (that would explain why they became part of Turkmen confederacy), at the west of Tehran, in Mashhad or even possibly in western Kyrgyztan. Btw, do you consider Lurs as Kurds?


Our belief is that we came from Syria to Iran at the invitation of sultan haydar safavi (the father of Shah Ismail)
I dont know how i would go about proving that

I DO NOT consider Lurs to be kurds
We are entirely different people
I find the mere suggestion insulting
هیچ وقت به خدا نگو یه مشکل بزرگ دارم
به مشکل بگو من یه خدای بزرگ دارم


Go tell the wolves that although the father has been killed,
The father's gun is with us still
Tell them that although all the men of the tribe have been killed,
There is a young boy in the cradle still

Bakhtiari Proverb
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#86 User is offline   Parsistani Icon

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 07:59 PM

View Postقزلباش, on 03 December 2010 - 07:55 PM, said:

Our belief is that we came from Syria to Iran at the invitation of sultan haydar safavi (the father of Shah Ismail)
I dont know how i would go about proving that

I DO NOT consider Lurs to be kurds
We are entirely different people
I find the mere suggestion insulting


Do you have among your elders the same beliefs like many Kurds and Baluchs beeing from Arab or Jewish origine? However, it is impossible for Lurs and Shamlus beeing from Syria. In general, the Shamlus are considered as Qizilbashs and part of Turkomans...that would reject every Syrian claim.
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#87 User is offline   قزلباش Icon

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 08:05 PM

View PostParsistani, on 03 December 2010 - 02:59 PM, said:

Do you have among your elders the same beliefs like many Kurds and Baluchs beeing from Arab or Jewish origine? However, it is impossible for Lurs and Shamlus beeing from Syria. In general, the Shamlus are considered as Qizilbashs and part of Turkomans...that would reject every Syrian claim.


No we do not, my Lur side of the family considers itself to be of "aryan" Iranian origin

My father's shamlu side considers itself to be descended from immigrants who responded to the safavid da'wa in Syria
هیچ وقت به خدا نگو یه مشکل بزرگ دارم
به مشکل بگو من یه خدای بزرگ دارم


Go tell the wolves that although the father has been killed,
The father's gun is with us still
Tell them that although all the men of the tribe have been killed,
There is a young boy in the cradle still

Bakhtiari Proverb
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#88 User is offline   Parsistani Icon

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 08:12 PM

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My father's shamlu side considers itself to be descended from immigrants who responded to the safavid da'wa in Syria


That´s sad. Because the Shamlus have many with coloured eyes and hairs which indicate a significant Tocharian ancestory (...

Quote

northern Uzbekistan-Chiva (that would explain why they became part of Turkmen confederacy ...
) mixed with Iranians that gave them their basic existence as Iranians. Maybe the modern generation can learn more about their history than our ancestors who believed in myths.
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#89 User is offline   قزلباش Icon

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Posted 03 December 2010 - 08:43 PM

View PostParsistani, on 03 December 2010 - 03:12 PM, said:

That´s sad. Because the Shamlus have many with coloured eyes and hairs which indicate a significant Tocharian ancestory


I dont know about Tocharian ancestry but colored hair and eyes are extremely common on both sides of my family. On my mother's side of the family, brown eyes are in the minority.

I am going to Iran on december the 14th; ill share some pics when i come back in january :)

PS. i have taken a genetics test through a company called 23andme.
My closest matches are with Armenians.
I match much better with Armenians than i do even with other Iranians.
I also dont have turkic Y-DNA; my Y-DNA is somewhat common among Armenians while it is only found in 0.6% of Iranians
هیچ وقت به خدا نگو یه مشکل بزرگ دارم
به مشکل بگو من یه خدای بزرگ دارم


Go tell the wolves that although the father has been killed,
The father's gun is with us still
Tell them that although all the men of the tribe have been killed,
There is a young boy in the cradle still

Bakhtiari Proverb
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#90 User is offline   Parsistani Icon

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Posted 04 December 2010 - 09:29 PM

Congratulation, your topic had in lesser than 1 month nearly 900 readers!
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#91 User is offline   Nader Shah Icon

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 03:00 AM

Anyway, what is 23and me, are they reliable ? I would not waste my money on such scams because they have too little in terms of samples and knowledge ... please correct me if I am wrong. Anyway, they might find out I am from the superior Atlantean race :D so what ???

View Postقزلباش, on 03 December 2010 - 08:43 PM, said:

PS. i have taken a genetics test through a company called 23andme.
My closest matches are with Armenians.
I match much better with Armenians than i do even with other Iranians.
I also dont have turkic Y-DNA; my Y-DNA is somewhat common among Armenians while it is only found in 0.6% of Iranians

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#92 User is offline   قزلباش Icon

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Posted 05 December 2010 - 05:06 AM

View PostNader Shah, on 04 December 2010 - 10:00 PM, said:

Anyway, what is 23and me, are they reliable ? I would not waste my money on such scams because they have too little in terms of samples and knowledge ... please correct me if I am wrong. Anyway, they might find out I am from the superior Atlantean race :D so what ???


23andme is quite reliable

In fact, they notified me that i am a potential cousin of several individuals with Lur tribal surnames (individuals who were part of the 23andme database) despite the fact that i hadnt revealed my ethnicity to them
That is quite enough proof
هیچ وقت به خدا نگو یه مشکل بزرگ دارم
به مشکل بگو من یه خدای بزرگ دارم


Go tell the wolves that although the father has been killed,
The father's gun is with us still
Tell them that although all the men of the tribe have been killed,
There is a young boy in the cradle still

Bakhtiari Proverb
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#93 User is offline   arshak Icon

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Posted 21 December 2010 - 09:16 AM

What's best for the region is to ensure ECO(Economic Cooperation Council) became something like European Union. It doesn't matter Persian, Azeri, Turkmen, Uzbek, Pashtoon etc. First steps should be for Iran, Afghanistan and Tajikistan to increase cooperation among themselves. In all three countries, name of language should be changed from Farsi/Dari/Tajik to Persian(Parsi). Then a common currency should be used of which the three should decide what to name the currency(some suggestions: Daric, Rial or Dinar). Remove visas/work-study restrictions for all nationals of the three countries.
Once established and fully effective, expand similar agreements with other ECO members. As for expansion get Armenia and Georgia to join ECO. This will be the future strong cooperation not war.

If you look at EU now, it doesn't matter if the person is from Berlin or London or Paris, etc. They can freely work/study in anywhere within EU they want.

ECO's future should be the same, it shouldn't matter if it's Tehran, Kabul, Dushanbe, Bokhara, Tashkent, Baku, etc.
хоросон бозорг човидон
http://www.persiangulfonline.org/
http://www.arabian-gulf.info/
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#94 User is offline   Parsi_zaban Icon

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 05:14 AM

View Postarshak, on 21 December 2010 - 02:16 AM, said:

What's best for the region is to ensure ECO(Economic Cooperation Council) became something like European Union. It doesn't matter Persian, Azeri, Turkmen, Uzbek, Pashtoon etc. First steps should be for Iran, Afghanistan and Tajikistan to increase cooperation among themselves. In all three countries, name of language should be changed from Farsi/Dari/Tajik to Persian(Parsi). Then a common currency should be used of which the three should decide what to name the currency(some suggestions: Daric, Rial or Dinar). Remove visas/work-study restrictions for all nationals of the three countries.
Once established and fully effective, expand similar agreements with other ECO members. As for expansion get Armenia and Georgia to join ECO. This will be the future strong cooperation not war.

If you look at EU now, it doesn't matter if the person is from Berlin or London or Paris, etc. They can freely work/study in anywhere within EU they want.

ECO's future should be the same, it shouldn't matter if it's Tehran, Kabul, Dushanbe, Bokhara, Tashkent, Baku, etc.


that sort of union would be ideal, however its not a realistic option at this moment. i think if we manage to untie persian speakers first, then there might be some hope at uniting the iranic and turkic world.
چــو ایــــــــران نبـاشد تن من مباد
بدین بوم و بر زنــده یک تن مباد
دریـغ است ایــران که ویران شود
کنـام پلنگـــــــان و شیــــــران شود
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#95 User is offline   arshak Icon

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 08:26 AM

View PostParsi_zaban, on 22 December 2010 - 03:14 PM, said:

that sort of union would be ideal, however its not a realistic option at this moment. i think if we manage to untie persian speakers first, then there might be some hope at uniting the iranic and turkic world.


I'm not saying it should happen this instance! European Union or other similar unions such as those of (Schengen,Benelux, Scandinavian Cooperation), Gulf Cooperation Council didn't happen overnight.

However, I would like to see Iran, Tajikistan and Afghanistan work closely together to come up with common language name, common written script, common education system, common currency and abolishing of visas. These are some primary steps that can be taken by the three.

Step-by-step is the way to go.
хоросон бозорг човидон
http://www.persiangulfonline.org/
http://www.arabian-gulf.info/
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#96 User is offline   Parsi_zaban Icon

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 08:37 AM

View Postarshak, on 22 December 2010 - 01:26 AM, said:

I'm not saying it should happen this instance! European Union or other similar unions such as those of (Schengen,Benelux, Scandinavian Cooperation), Gulf Cooperation Council didn't happen overnight.

However, I would like to see Iran, Tajikistan and Afghanistan work closely together to come up with common language name, common written script, common education system, common currency and abolishing of visas. These are some primary steps that can be taken by the three.

Step-by-step is the way to go.


tajikestan and iran can, however unless north afghanistan separates they wont be able to join iran and tajikestan. the taliban and the pashtuns simply would not allow it. they would either kill or call anyone who wants strong ties with iran as traitors.
چــو ایــــــــران نبـاشد تن من مباد
بدین بوم و بر زنــده یک تن مباد
دریـغ است ایــران که ویران شود
کنـام پلنگـــــــان و شیــــــران شود
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#97 User is offline   arshak Icon

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Posted 22 December 2010 - 08:45 AM

View PostParsi_zaban, on 22 December 2010 - 06:37 PM, said:

tajikestan and iran can, however unless north afghanistan separates they wont be able to join iran and tajikestan. the taliban and the pashtuns simply would not allow it. they would either kill or call anyone who wants strong ties with iran as traitors.


Well what are our people waiting for? Iran and Tajikistan should make the first steps and Afghanistan can join in when her situation is stable.
хоросон бозорг човидон
http://www.persiangulfonline.org/
http://www.arabian-gulf.info/
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#98 User is offline   Parsistani Icon

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Posted 23 December 2010 - 10:44 PM

Pashtuns have not any dictatorships for us. Many Tajik leaders like Atta are against Pashtun rulers and their policy and they are welcoming Tajikistan and Iran. He even removed Pashtuns from Balkh and Kunduz. Alam Mir even send his ''killers'' to solve the Pashtun problem in the north. Why Pashtuns have the right to talk about Paki Pathans with whom they have nothing in common, not even their language and culture but it is not allowed for non-Pashtuns?
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#99 User is offline   Avqust23 Icon

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Posted 27 August 2011 - 09:26 PM

First of all, I must apologize for digging an old topic, but I saw it on google and was tempted to create an account and join the discussion.

View Postقزلباش, on 16 November 2010 - 08:13 AM, said:

Dorood, I had a little spare time on my hands and so I decided to put some of my thoughts about the Samarqand-Bukhara question on paper

The Tajik people of Central Asia are, by definition, dehghan Persians and so when one thinks of the Tajik nation and the Tajik nation-state, towns and cities naturally come to mind.
It would therefore be reasonable to assume that any Tajik nation-state would contain the historic cities that reflect this inextricable facet of Tajik identity.

Not necessarily. History would dictate which cities go to which nation-sates.
The Greeks have their own nation-state, without Constantinople/Istanbul, despite that city undoubtedly being the most important place in the heart of Greek culture. Will it ever go back to them in the future? That possibility remains wide open. But in the meantime, it's part of Turkey.

Quote

Tragically, this is not the case.

With casual strokes of their pens, ignorant and/or malignant Soviet cartographers mercilessly annexed the Tajik centers of Bukhara and Samarqand and created an abomination that they choose to label “Tajik SSR”.

Indeed the Soviets were clumsy.

Quote

Bukhara and Samarqand are still Persian cities but there can be no doubt as to what is currently happening, there can be denial of the fact that Samarqand and Bukhara are now the targets of a ruthless Uzbekification program that is being implemented at the behest of the half-tajik-turned-Uzbek-nationalist Islam Karimov
Day after day, Samarqand and Bukhara are being assaulted; they are being assaulted by the officials of the Uzbek ministry of culture, they are being assaulted by the censors of the Karimov government and they are being assaulted by waves of Uzbek migration from the countryside.
Our generation will be remembered as the generation which stood by and watched the Uzbekification of the greatest Persian cities in Central Asia.
That is, if we chose to stand by

Look, the Tajiks living in Uzbekistan are in big number. Despite official sources that say 5%, even the west are saying it's atleast 30%. If the west says so, it means they're not going to stand around and see forced assimilation taking place. Besides, the Tajiks also have a responsibility to protect their identity. How hard can it really be? Afterall dont Tajiks have 2 countries that they predominantly call their home and have official language statuses in? (Afghanistan and Tajikistan?) So why is it hard for the Tajiks in Uzbekistan to not continue living in these 2 historic cities and maintain their cultural identity with the backbone flow that is Afghanistan and Tajikistan? If they cant do that, if they dont have the will, then nobody will help them. They have to help themselves first.

Quote

I have thought long and hard about this issue and I have come to conclusion that there is really only one viable solution to the Samarqand-Bukhara Question; Military Action.

Now, before anyone calls me a Lur-e-jangara, I will explain why I have concluded that the military option is they only feasible solution.
The central concern is the fragility of the Persian population of Samarqand and Bukhara and the logistic hurdles that we face; the problem is that Samarqand and Bukhara represent small but populous concentrations and they are therefore extremely vulnerable.
They are vulnerable because relatively effortless population movements can completely change the demographics of these cities; we must understand that if the Karimov government or its successors ever feel threatened, they can easily and rapidly change the demographics of these cities and destroy the Tajik majority.
This vulnerability of Samarqand and Bukhara is the reason that we cannot utilize nonviolent movements and the reason that we must elect to use decisive military action.

That is the craziest thing I ever heard. Yeah sure, go start an ethnic conflict. Best way for Tajiks in those cities to get their freedom, shake hands with the west. Offer them something in return for their support, and they'll help you get your country. Military action is going to make Tajiks lose ground. If your country loses the war against Uzbekistan, which it will I assure you, your country will be partitioned as a nice prize for the Uzbeks. A good chunk of Tajikistan will go to Uzbekistan. Guess what happens next? Further "Uzbekification".

Quote

The key to success in any attempt to annex territory in our modern UN-dominated world is to not appear to be the aggressor. In short, we would need to provoke the Uzbekistani government into attacking us.
This is fairly simple to do and it can be accomplished through shrewd use of Tajikistan’s stranglehold on the rivers that sustain Uzbekistan. The Zarafshan and the Amu Darya rivers which consistitute the lifeline of Uzbekistan both have their headwaters in Tajikistan and we can use this fact to our advantage. We can discreetly manipulate these water resources in order to provoke Uzbek military action.
Once the Uzbeks do “initiate” hostilities, the Tajiks must fall back in apparent disarray as the international community looks on in sympathy and witnesses the Uzbek “aggressor” brutalize its weaker neighbor.

This is just a big lol. Your country cannot start a war and it sure cannot provoke a country to start a war against you. In fact if the former is suicidal, the latter is even crazier. So what if Uzbekistan are seen as aggressors? You give them an excuse to attack you and they'll do it while the whole world watches and turns a blind eye. That's even worse. Your whole country will be taken over, and Tajiks will forever be finished in central asia.

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Then, at the opportune moment, once we have garnered enough international sympathy for our "plight", there must a massive Iranian-Tajik*(refer to note) joint “counteroffensive” in the aftermath of an airlift of Iranian troops to Tajikistan. We must push deep and fast into Uzbekistan and we must occupy Samarqand and Tashkent (both of which are near the Tajik border) before declaring a “generous” unilateral cease-fire. In the subsequent peace negotiations we must continue to portray our actions as mere reactions to Uzbek aggression and we must negotiate a withdrawal of our troops from Tashkent in exchange for the establishment of Samarqand and Bukhara as enclaves of Tajikistan. In the case of Samarqand, we can perhaps even negotiate to gain the portion of the Zerafshan valley that lies between the Panjikent and Samarqand.
Our stated motivation for the acquisition of the enclaves must be the safeguarding of the local Tajik population and we must foster local Samarqandi and Bukhari organizations that make it appear that the motivation for the annexation is emanating from within the cities.

Haha this is so stupid. Okay good luck doing that Chuck.
If Iran involves itself purely for its 'racial' connections with Tajiks, do you think the Turks (i.e. NATO) wont involve? Or Azerbaijan? Or Turkmenistan?
And since Iran is already on the wanted list by the west and Israel, they will take the opportunity to make sure they have a good excuse for hitting Iran.
Iran will be too busy trying to keep themselves alive instead of helping Tajiks. And you'll be left on your own, while Uzbeks team up with Turkey and quasi-bomb the living hell out of Tajikistan until you sign a peace treaty that partitions your country into bits and accepts waves of Uzbek migrants in as well.

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*note: This is, of course, the most problematic condition in the scenario and it is contingent on the establishment of a secular-nationalist government in Tehran; a prospect that is not too far-fetched in the near future given the prevailing political climate in Iran

Get a nationalist Iran and soon you'll be hearing Azeris in Iran wanting to separate, and Turkmens in the south, and Arabs in the southwest. Good luck with that.
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Posted 27 August 2011 - 09:37 PM

View Postقزلباش, on 16 November 2010 - 10:34 PM, said:

What happened in central asia between the 5th century and the 18th century is the biggest genocide in human history.
Iranian languages were once spoken in Kazakhstan and northwestern China.
Murder, rape and pillage was the modus operandi of the invaders from east asia.

Okay first of all I want to say

Did you even know that the Khawarezmi empire that was destroyed by Mongols was Turkic?

The rulers were Turks but they spoke Persian. Also, most of central asia was persian-speaking but genetically it was mostly Turkic as well.
The 'genetic' Iranians were mostly based south of Merv, in the Iranian plateau. That is a fact.

So when you want to speak about Mongols in a bad way, go ahead. I also dont like them. I believe they are gog and magog.
But please do not associate turks to mongols, like other people in this topic have done. Many turks were killed by mongols too, regardless of what any ill informed pan-turkic nationalist might say or think, because quite frankly most of them are idiotic turkified anatolians. But in reality, many turks like kipchaks, tatars, and tribes that used to speak persian in the Khawarezmi empire were killed.

Iranian languages were displaced, true. But genetically speaking, the ones who suffered most under Mongol hands were not Iranians but Persian-speaking Turks in central asia, including the dynasty which ruled.
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