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In Afghanistan, we should call Persian/Dari/Farsi as Tajiki Rate Topic: -----

#1 User is offline   Parsistani Icon

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Posted 22 January 2011 - 01:32 PM

Dear friends,

I was thinking the whole night how we can solve the fascist Pashtun policy toward our cultural heritage and language. After long thinking and examine the situation from every point of view (took me 4 hours and 5 pages) I came to the conclussion to rename Persian in Afghanistan from ''Dari'' to Tajiki. Don´t get upset. First, just listen and than you can decide if you are a pro- or con-.

Why Tajiki? The answer is very easy. We are not PASHTUNS, who speak PASHTU and not HAZARAS, who speak a dialect called HAZARAGI, which is, and as long we accept the term ''Dari'', it will remain in the eye of Pashtunists an own independant branch of ''Dari'', UZBAKS speak UZBAKI, TURKMENS speak Turkmeni, NURISTANIS speak Nuristani, Balochs speak Balochi or Iranians (by citizen) to call it Irani etc. Of course, the term Dari is drived from Darbar, court, but many people do not know the reason behind this word ''Dari'' and they are not related with the history of the language and that is the point Pashtunists use it for their own goals. Remember, majority of Afghanistani people are illiterate. Because of the only short translation and only mentioning the short form of Darbari->Dari and rejecting ''Parsi'', it looks like it is an own language, the goal of Pashtunists. We, the great sons of Khorasan, the great ''Tajiks'' are the only people whose language is not connected to our name. Why? Because we are the only real threat to Pashtuns and Pashtu and ''Awghanistan´s Unity''. We are the only real victim to their policy. Why should we accept such half words like ''Dari'' or the wrong assumptation ''Zaban-i Afghani''? ''Afghani'' is Pashtu as Afghan is a Pashtun. Why should Pashtuns call their language as Pashtu as an excuse because mio. of ''Pashtuns'' live in Pakistan but Tajiks have to call their language ''Dari'' or accept the wrong name ''Zaban-i Afghani'' because of ethnical and political reasons that go beyond Awghanistan´s borders? My recommendation is to force the government to change ''Dari'' to Tajiki, since we are TAJIKS like Pashtuns speak PASHTU or Nuristani do Nuristani etc. Once, we changed it to Tajiki, we can decide ourself what our language is, where it came from, who it´s speakers are and to which civilisation and history it belongs to. Once we succed it, there won´t be any problems to use for it also words like Palavi, Farsi, Parsi ...and it will be respected automatically as a dialect, not even a branch, of Persian spoken in Uzbekistan, Iran, Tajikistan, Turkmenistan, Pakistan, Kashmir, Kyrgystan, Afghanistan and India. In addition, we can also use the term ''Dari'' in it´s correct context to descripe our language. Not as ''Dari'' but as ''Parsi-ye Darbari'' (Persian of the Court - Farsi-ye Darbar), shortend as ''Pari(y)'' - from Parsi and Darbar - meaning ''Language of Heaven''. The last name we can support by a Hadith where Persian is called as the language of Heaven and the language as whole can be explained and defended by scholaric works on Persian language, like that of Richard´Frye:

‘If learning were suspended at the highest parts of heaven the Iranians would attain it.’ (click on the deliverance)

That would also make clear, that Persian is not the language of ''Afghan Persians'', but of Tajiks, Hazaras and smaller minorities and Pashtuns are it´s servants. Such a process would even diminish and destroy the fake claim of Pashtuns Pashtu beeing spoken by 50% and we would even have a better linguistical data about the ''ethnical composition'' because Tajiks speak Tajiki, Hazaras speak Hazaragi etc. If we reach our (in that case my goal) it would be possible and very easy to count all the different dialects, from Kurdistan to India as ''Parsi-ye Darbari'' or just as ''Parsi'' or ''Palavi'' (which actually means Parthian, but since Tajiks have Parthian ancestory, it would be legal). With such a step, it would be the greatest lose for Pashtuns they have faced in Awghanistan. I hope, many User from all part of the world, please, invite also many Tajikistanis and Iranians from other places to us, will give their opinions and support me.

Ps: it would be interesting if I get positive or negative reputation for this topic. Please vote. It´s just a test for myself.

The following should answer your further questions:

Quote

100%, but we have to see the reality into it´s face. Today, how many Iranian Persians consider Tajiks (maybe exept Tajikistani Tajiks) as Persians and know them as such and as an ethnic of Afghanistan and how many Tajiks know that their ethnical name means ''Persian'' or ''Aryan''? As once brother Nader Jan wrote, many Iranians believe Afghanistan is a Pashtun country with Pashtu as their national language with smaller Turkmem, Hazaras and Uzbek minorities, but with no ''Tajik'' (Persian) population, who just speak Perian as second language because of the historical events of the past. The Tajiks of Afghanistan, maybe mainly caused through their religion (majority Sunni), thanks to Pashtun barbarians, do not consider themself as ''Persians'' and even do not know that Tajik means ''Persian''. For them, ''Persians'' are Iranians and thus ''Shia''. Only the educated and academic class know this ''secret'' there is no difference between Iranians and Tajiks. Tajiks mostly even consider themself as ''ethnic Khorasanian''. I guess, you support in this case my view which isn´t deniable. Of course, we have the same culture, heritage, history and language, but these are not the problems. The problems lie on the ''devide-and-conquer'' policy of Pashtuns and their educational manipulations of the minds of non-Pashtuns, particulrely of Tajiks, in the past. This guy Najibullah Kabuli is the best proof for a doctrinated idiot and a slave of Pashtunists. The fact, that even some educated Tajiks, like Rasaq Mamoon, have written against the Iranian government and their policy in Afghanistan just take the people more away from an inter-national identification and unity. Those who read his new book won´t call themself as Persians. About the illiterate population we won´t talk because no need here. They just identify themself with the enviroment they live within. Fahim f.ex. is from a poor background with lack education and at the same time, tough an uneducated person, he is the most powerful warlord in Afghanistan and the first Vice President and of Tajik background, at least that is the image of him and is considered as such.

Our war in Afghanistan and movement for a partition from Barbarians should start on the basis of language´s name changing. We can´t claim for something when everyone´s language is called after it´s speakers´ name but only Tajiks speaks ''Dari''. We can get much more independance, culturally, political and ethnical, when we make clear, we are Tajiks and we speak Tajiki, as Tajiks of Tajikistan speak and call it as Tajiki, too. We have to go step by step. From Afghan, to Tajik, from Tajik to Khorasani and Persian. From Dari to Tajiki, from Tajiki to Parsi, Palavi, Parsi-ye Darbari etc. We can be only in such steps succesfully. We need to educate slowly but surely our people´s mind, make them clear about their history, identity and culture. It won´t take us somewhere when we call ourself from one day to the next Persians and our language as Persian, which actually is already known among non-Pashtuns as Farsi. The people would do not take us serious and turn their back to us and with Pashtunist manipulations they would call us as ''foreigners'', ''sell-outs'' or ''Iran´s agents''. There is not even a single Tajik who use the word ''Dari''. We have to work politically and culturally and use one of them there where we think we need it. The idea about beeing Persian and speaking Persian won´t be forgotten. That will be the last and ultimate aim. Everyone who speaks Farsi and have an ancestory closely related with Irano-Khorasanian history and civilisation, he is a Persian and a Persianspeaker. We have to face modern policies, current situation of Persian language created by Pashtunists (see above: ''Zaban-i Afghani'' etc.) and deal with them in a very radical way but without spitting and punshing directly into their faces. Every step need to made slowly but with certainty. Ethnification of ''Dari'' to Tajiki and later to Parsi is the aim.

I hope, now you understand it. My words above was for sure not clearly mind-tangile and thus my thought was not really exact. But now, you guys should understand it. Believe me, I had a very long and deep discussion with myself and I came to the conclussion that at current view it´s the best solution we could do to reach our ultimate goal which is unification of all Persianspeakers and building a strong nation, boosting the partition of Awghanistan and getting a serious nation in CA and possibly a bit mighty. All for the sake of all Tajik and Persianspeaking mothers and their ancestors who bear sons and daughters but suffer more than anyone when their children die.

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#2 User is offline   قزلباش Icon

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Posted 22 January 2011 - 02:21 PM

Baradar, I must say that I don't agree with you.

Instead of renaming Dari to Tajiki, we must endeavor to raise awareness if the fact that Tajiks are Persians and we must endeavor to restore Dari to it's original name; " Persian"

This course of action would establish the connection between Tajik Persians and their language and it would also create unity with Persian-speakers elsewhere
هیچ وقت به خدا نگو یه مشکل بزرگ دارم
به مشکل بگو من یه خدای بزرگ دارم


Go tell the wolves that although the father has been killed,
The father's gun is with us still
Tell them that although all the men of the tribe have been killed,
There is a young boy in the cradle still

Bakhtiari Proverb
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#3 User is offline   Sohrab Icon

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Posted 22 January 2011 - 02:40 PM

just call it farsi, it has always been like this in afghanistan until the zahir/dawood fascist regime changed it to dari, and we all know why they did it, the enthic problem we got in afghanistan should only be blamed on pashtoon leaders and govs.
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#4 User is offline   Parsistani Icon

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Posted 22 January 2011 - 03:12 PM

View Postقزلباش, on 22 January 2011 - 02:21 PM, said:

Baradar, I must say that I don't agree with you.

Instead of renaming Dari to Tajiki, we must endeavor to raise awareness if the fact that Tajiks are Persians and we must endeavor to restore Dari to it's original name; " Persian"

This course of action would establish the connection between Tajik Persians and their language and it would also create unity with Persian-speakers elsewhere


Dorood Qizilbash Gerami,

thank you for your wise words. I appreciate them and I am on your side, 100%, but we have to see the reality into it´s face. Today, how many Iranian Persians consider Tajiks (maybe exept Tajikistani Tajiks) as Persians and know them as such and as an ethnic of Afghanistan and how many Tajiks know that their ethnical name means ''Persian'' or ''Aryan''? As once brother Nader Jan wrote, many Iranians believe Afghanistan is a Pashtun country with Pashtu as their national language with smaller Turkmem, Hazaras and Uzbek minorities, but with no ''Tajik'' (Persian) population, who just speak Perian as second language because of the historical events of the past. The Tajiks of Afghanistan, maybe mainly caused through their religion (majority Sunni), thanks to Pashtun barbarians, do not consider themself as ''Persians'' and even do not know that Tajik means ''Persian''. For them, ''Persians'' are Iranians and thus ''Shia''. Only the educated and academic class know this ''secret'' there is no difference between Iranians and Tajiks. Tajiks mostly even consider themself as ''ethnic Khorasanian''. I guess, you support in this case my view which isn´t deniable. Of course, we have the same culture, heritage, history and language, but these are not the problems. The problems lie on the ''devide-and-conquer'' policy of Pashtuns and their educational manipulations of the minds of non-Pashtuns, particulrely of Tajiks, in the past. This guy Najibullah Kabuli is the best proof for a doctrinated idiot and a slave of Pashtunists. The fact, that even some educated Tajiks, like Rasaq Mamoon, have written against the Iranian government and their policy in Afghanistan just take the people more away from an inter-national identification and unity. Those who read his new book won´t call themself as Persians. About the illiterate population we won´t talk because no need here. They just identify themself with the enviroment they live within. Fahim f.ex. is from a poor background with lack education and at the same time, tough an uneducated person, he is the most powerful warlord in Afghanistan and the first Vice President and of Tajik background, at least that is the image of him and is considered as such.

Our war in Afghanistan and movement for a partition from Barbarians should start on the basis of language´s name changing. We can´t claim for something when everyone´s language is called after it´s speakers´ name but only Tajiks speaks ''Dari''. We can get much more independance, culturally, political and ethnical, when we make clear, we are Tajiks and we speak Tajiki, as Tajiks of Tajikistan speak and call it as Tajiki, too. We have to go step by step. From Afghan, to Tajik, from Tajik to Khorasani and Persian. From Dari to Tajiki, from Tajiki to Parsi, Palavi, Parsi-ye Darbari etc. We can be only in such steps succesfully. We need to educate slowly but surely our people´s mind, make them clear about their history, identity and culture. It won´t take us somewhere when we call ourself from one day to the next Persians and our language as Persian, which actually is already known among non-Pashtuns as Farsi. The people would do not take us serious and turn their back to us and with Pashtunist manipulations they would call us as ''foreigners'', ''sell-outs'' or ''Iran´s agents''. There is not even a single Tajik who use the word ''Dari''. We have to work politically and culturally and use one of them there where we think we need it. The idea about beeing Persian and speaking Persian won´t be forgotten. That will be the last and ultimate aim. Everyone who speaks Farsi and have an ancestory closely related with Irano-Khorasanian history and civilisation, he is a Persian and a Persianspeaker. We have to face modern policies, current situation of Persian language created by Pashtunists (see above: ''Zaban-i Afghani'' etc.) and deal with them in a very radical way but without spitting and punshing directly into their faces. Every step need to made slowly but with certainty. Ethnification of ''Dari'' to Tajiki and later to Parsi is the aim.

I hope, now you understand it. My words above was for sure not clearly mind-tangile and thus my thought was not really exact. But now, you guys should understand it. Believe me, I had a very long and deep discussion with myself and I came to the conclussion that at current view it´s the best solution we could do to reach our ultimate goal which is unification of all Persianspeakers and building a strong nation, boosting the partition of Awghanistan and getting a serious nation in CA and possibly a bit mighty. All for the sake of all Tajik and Persianspeaking mothers and their ancestors who bear sons and daughters but suffer more than anyone when their children die. Rethink again and sleep one night over it and tell me tomorrow if you still keep on your opinion.
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#5 User is offline   قزلباش Icon

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Posted 22 January 2011 - 07:24 PM

Baradar e gerami,

I can see what you are trying to do but i think that i am too impatient for the gradual approach that you are proposing.
I want to see faster change and I want to see the union of all Persians in my own lifetime.

My father always says that men are at their bravest when they are in their early 20's and will only become more cowardly with age.
I am 20 now and so, for me, time is of the essence.
We can either be makers of history or objects of history and we can choose to be the makers of history by taking the initiative.

bro, i dont know if you have recently typed "Tajik" in google.
If you do so, you will see that the first link that comes up is to the wikipedia article on "Tajik people"
If you click on that link you will see that you are automatically redirected to the page on "Persian people".

In essence, the notion that Tajiks are a distinct ethnic group has been purged from Wikipedia.
Its small changes like this that will make a difference in the long run and i know some of the people who fought to create that change (two of them are Qizilbash) at a time when they were opposed by virtually everyone in the Persian wikipedia community . They were opposed by both Afghanistani Persians and Irani Persians but they never gave up and they kept fighting. From what we can all see, they eventually succeeded.

we must be rash and we must make the future happen.
هیچ وقت به خدا نگو یه مشکل بزرگ دارم
به مشکل بگو من یه خدای بزرگ دارم


Go tell the wolves that although the father has been killed,
The father's gun is with us still
Tell them that although all the men of the tribe have been killed,
There is a young boy in the cradle still

Bakhtiari Proverb
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Posted 22 January 2011 - 07:57 PM

Quote

I can see what you are trying to do but i think that i am too impatient for the gradual approach that you are proposing.
I want to see faster change and I want to see the union of all Persians in my own lifetime.


A change will surely come, very soon. No matter how hard Pakis and their lap-dogs try hard. I also think first the Tajik nation and other Persianspeakers will be united before poor and innocent Iranians get ride on their Ikhwani-like leaders. But right now, neither Americans nor Russians or Pakis or Iran is able to do anything, except bring their influence on the region. Therefore, changes need to come from ourself and support those from whome we profite a lot. Iranian Persianspeakers have not the same problems we have. They are not devided or discriminated or are fooled by any other nations or weakend by Arabs or Turks. The situation in Afghanistan and Uzbekistan is different. The centre of a future united Tajiks and Persianspeaking people of Central Asia lies in Afghanistan, therefore we need to focus our policy first on Afghanistan and the Persianspeakers, specially to Tajiks. Tajiks are the main threat to Awghanistan´s fake unity and thus we need to chose our own identity. One step would be to make clear ''Dari'' is the language of Tajiks, so it should be called Tajiki, as Pashtu is called after it´s speakers. All other developments, also the unification of all Persianspeakers in all middle-east will ran parallel to this progress. As long we are not 100% independant, we can´t erase every relationship to Pashtuns and one important point is the language if not the most important. As I stated above, one reason is to show the Pashtuns they are and were never a majority and at the same time teach the non-Pashtuns of the foolish Pashtuns who thought they can fool non-Pashtuns. Ethnical demographic and dominance are the most important things in Afghanistan. Since there was never a census, we need to go through language dominance. Once we are free and apart from Pashtuns, we will reach to the proud Iranian people our hands. We will for sure be ready to take Iranians refuge in our future country if they seek security from Ikhwani-Mullahs of Iran (not all Mullah´s are bad, only a small part who are like Arab-Paraast and anti-Iranian).

Quote

In essence, the notion that Tajiks are a distinct ethnic group has been purged from Wikipedia.
Its small changes like this that will make a difference in the long run and i know some of the people who fought to create that change (two of them are Qizilbash) at a time when they were opposed by virtually everyone in the Persian wikipedia community . They were opposed by both Afghanistani Persians and Irani Persians but they never gave up and they kept fighting. From what we can all see, they eventually succeeded.


I know them. Two of them are here on Tajikam.com and one is a permanent reader of this forum and is known under ''Tajik'' on Wiki engl. However, we are not talking about historical or genetical facts, but about the modern 21th century identity of Afghanistanis. Afghanistan is to 70% illiterate and many people do not know really who they are and do also not accept or understand they are Persians by historical and scientific works. We need first to make a deal with such people. When they are educated and their children get education by apart ourself from this dirty Awghanistan and our people dropp off the Pashtun-influenced mentality, we will be able to come and meet eachother when the border is erased from Tajikistan, Iran and Uzbekistan. As I said, many Tajiks today either use Tajik or Khorasani as identity. Here, we have first to work. We could also use for our language Khorasani-Persian ''Parsi-ye Khorasani''. Every other name calling would boost the clearing of Tajik and other non-Pashtun ethnicities and lead to a further self-determination and finally to a partition.

Ps: Your grand-father is a wise man. Also my father tells me a man in his 20ths is like a young lion, in his 30th he is a warrior and and his 40ths and 50ths he is like a general.
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Posted 29 January 2011 - 01:40 PM

Read that http://tajikam.com/f...id=376&Itemid=1 That´s why I am pro-Name changing of ''Daari'' to Tajiki.
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Posted 06 February 2011 - 02:47 PM

I´d like to know what Prof. Gul Agha and Khurasani´s thoughts are on this issue, also what Nader Shah and other Users think about it. Or is this topic to hot and controversial?
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Posted 23 February 2011 - 09:19 PM

I believe we shouldn't further divide ourselves by promoting terms like Tajiki and Dari. Tajiki is being gradually eliminated in Tajikistan and soon an amendment will replace Tajiki with Farsi or Farsi-ye Tajiki in the constitution.

Many Iranians are very ignorant about the ethnic composition of Afghanistan. Most Iranians that I have meet (the educated ones who claim they are Iranologists) are unaware that Afghanistan has any Tajiks or even ethnic Persians. Whenever I tell them I am a Tajik from Kabul, they automatically think I am a Tajikistani which really pisses me off. Even after repeating many times that Afghanistan has Tajiks too they still make this mistake and they still think everyone in Afghanistan is an Afghani (pashto-speakers and the persian-speakers only being Hazaras/Mongols). However, the Iranian youth who are active in politics nowadays are much more aware of Afghanistan and Central Asia's history, politics and demographics.
Ba Naam e Khudahvand e Jan o Kherad, Kazeen Bartar Andisha Bar Nagzarad

به نام خداوند جان و خرد، کزین برتر اندیشه برنگذرد
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Posted 23 February 2011 - 09:24 PM

View PostGul agha, on 23 February 2011 - 09:19 PM, said:

I believe we shouldn't further divide ourselves by promoting terms like Tajiki and Dari. Tajiki is being gradually eliminated in Tajikistan and soon an amendment will replace Tajiki with Farsi or Farsi-ye Tajiki in the constitution.

Many Iranians are very ignorant about the ethnic composition of Afghanistan. Most Iranians that I have meet (the educated ones who claim they are Iranologists) are unaware that Afghanistan has any Tajiks or even ethnic Persians. Whenever I tell them I am a Tajik from Kabul, they automatically think I am a Tajikistani which really pisses me off. Even after repeating many times that Afghanistan has Tajiks too they still make this mistake and they still think everyone in Afghanistan is an Afghani (pashto-speakers and the persian-speakers only being Hazaras/Mongols). However, the Iranian youth who are active in politics nowadays are much more aware of Afghanistan and Central Asia's history, politics and demographics.


That´s not deviding, that´s politic and independance. In Awghanistan, we need to play with our language and ethnic identity, specially with our language. For 30 years ago, Aimaks were called as an own ethnicity, today, they are counted to Tajiks. As I wrote above, we just need to use the word in Afghanistan (Tajiki), while in official documents we have to use right after ''Tajiki'' the term Parsi and so on. Read again the topic and think about it. And above, you will see the term Farsi-ye Tajiki or Parsi-e-Darbari etc. In further explanation we should make clear that the term ''Tajiki'' is used in the context of ethnography that exists in Afghanistan, specially when ethnical background is the basic of politicians and politics. Read again every comment and everywhere I have written. Do you understand what I mean? Btw, how can I write on Facebook? I can only write on my pin wall
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Posted 08 April 2011 - 02:45 PM

I guess that it´s nice to hear that on facebook my group (We want a change of Dari to Parsi-e Darbari or Tajiki) has 14 famous members, including Registani and Atta Mohammad Noor.
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Posted 08 April 2011 - 06:28 PM

View PostGul agha, on 23 February 2011 - 10:19 PM, said:

I believe we shouldn't further divide ourselves by promoting terms like Tajiki and Dari. Tajiki is being gradually eliminated in Tajikistan and soon an amendment will replace Tajiki with Farsi or Farsi-ye Tajiki in the constitution.

Many Iranians are very ignorant about the ethnic composition of Afghanistan. Most Iranians that I have meet (the educated ones who claim they are Iranologists) are unaware that Afghanistan has any Tajiks or even ethnic Persians. Whenever I tell them I am a Tajik from Kabul, they automatically think I am a Tajikistani which really pisses me off. Even after repeating many times that Afghanistan has Tajiks too they still make this mistake and they still think everyone in Afghanistan is an Afghani (pashto-speakers and the persian-speakers only being Hazaras/Mongols). However, the Iranian youth who are active in politics nowadays are much more aware of Afghanistan and Central Asia's history, politics and demographics.


i second that. and those who are aware are the ones who are engaging with us on the internet, in the real world majority of them are ignorant with regards to afghanistan and ethic compostin.
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Posted 10 April 2011 - 01:59 PM

Personally Tajiki by itself does seem to associate with Tajikistan so it is understandable people would have that connotation or understanding. Teaching Iranians abou this should be seen as positive keeping in mind that Azeri influence is strong enough that outsiders of Iran would not be knowledgeable on this point also that many of the mullahs have an Azeri background!!! There is ignorance on both sides so teaching is a good step to misunderstanding!
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